Headgasket Solutions
Headgasket Solutions
Ok. I'm trying to figure out what to do with my headgasket. I can leave it stock, or o-ring it. Right now my engine is bieng built up with forged internals, and has the fuel to handle 14psi from a straight t4 turbo.I believe that PSI240SX in Orlando ran a "stock" headgasket at 412hp. My question, I guess. Should I o-ring it or leave it stock?Also, if I o-ring the block, where around the Tampa, Orlando area can it be done? Titanmotorsports can't do it.-Jeff
yeah I talk with chris may every now and then, my car is much more "race" oriented(or will be) than his, Im planning on lightening it quite a bit, and doing lots of pretty crazy things for a street car, and I think a good spooling, smooth 300-350hp 2100lb car will be more than fun...but I cant gaurantee I wont want more 
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Pornflakes
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I do not recommend o-ringing the block, unless you'll be using a metal head gasket (which will be a pain in the a$$ in the future).
Do not use a stock head gasket with an o-ringed block. The stock gasket already has o-rings inside it around each cylinder hole, and will interfere with the correct "fitting" of the o-rings on the block. You can o-ring the block just outside of the internal o-rings on the headgasket, but then the block o-rings are useless because they contribute to almost nothing.
Jay's engine did hold such power with a stock headgasket and stock head bolts, but not for too long. The gasket blew on numerous situations. In other words, it would never last.
For the best setup possible without the use of a metal headgasket (guaranteed water sealing problems in the future), use a Fel-Pro or stock head gasket along with ARP head studs torqued to 70ft-lb in 4 steps (25ft-lb, 40ft-lb, 55ft-lb, 70ft-lb) using 30w oil on the threads.
EDIT:
By metal head gasket, I'm referring to a solid copper head gasket. This is to be used with steel o-rings on the block. Using this setup, water will have to be sealed by using some sort of silicone based sealant onto the copper head gasket. The sealant will soon deteriorate due to the harsh environment it is being exposed to constantly; temperature, expansion and contraction, etc...
Do not use a stock head gasket with an o-ringed block. The stock gasket already has o-rings inside it around each cylinder hole, and will interfere with the correct "fitting" of the o-rings on the block. You can o-ring the block just outside of the internal o-rings on the headgasket, but then the block o-rings are useless because they contribute to almost nothing.
Jay's engine did hold such power with a stock headgasket and stock head bolts, but not for too long. The gasket blew on numerous situations. In other words, it would never last.
For the best setup possible without the use of a metal headgasket (guaranteed water sealing problems in the future), use a Fel-Pro or stock head gasket along with ARP head studs torqued to 70ft-lb in 4 steps (25ft-lb, 40ft-lb, 55ft-lb, 70ft-lb) using 30w oil on the threads.
EDIT:
By metal head gasket, I'm referring to a solid copper head gasket. This is to be used with steel o-rings on the block. Using this setup, water will have to be sealed by using some sort of silicone based sealant onto the copper head gasket. The sealant will soon deteriorate due to the harsh environment it is being exposed to constantly; temperature, expansion and contraction, etc...
Ya know Mike, thats still the one thing I disagree with you on...
A copper headgasket, as I'm told by numerous shops including those who do exclusive 240sx/nissan work, is just not gonna work for street use. You will be leaking in no time.... And even so, fel-pro, I have tried and so have many others. They wont give you a damn metal headgasket without 50+ buyers.
I talked with the shops, machine shops, and including the guys I trust most, Nsport, and decided on a new stock headgasket and an O-ringed block for 15-20psi. Will the headgasket hold? As long as I can steer clear of detonation, I should be fine.
Either way, an o-ringed block or a new custom metal headgasket, you will come out to about the same price wise. A steel headgasket would probably be fine for street, but I'd stay away from copper.
Dave
A copper headgasket, as I'm told by numerous shops including those who do exclusive 240sx/nissan work, is just not gonna work for street use. You will be leaking in no time.... And even so, fel-pro, I have tried and so have many others. They wont give you a damn metal headgasket without 50+ buyers.
I talked with the shops, machine shops, and including the guys I trust most, Nsport, and decided on a new stock headgasket and an O-ringed block for 15-20psi. Will the headgasket hold? As long as I can steer clear of detonation, I should be fine.
Either way, an o-ringed block or a new custom metal headgasket, you will come out to about the same price wise. A steel headgasket would probably be fine for street, but I'd stay away from copper.
Dave
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Pornflakes
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I have Fel-Pro head gaskets for $89 each. Others just haven't tried hard enoughDaveEEE wrote:Ya know Mike, thats still the one thing I disagree with you on...
A copper headgasket, as I'm told by numerous shops including those who do exclusive 240sx/nissan work, is just not gonna work for street use. You will be leaking in no time.... And even so, fel-pro, I have tried and so have many others. They wont give you a damn metal headgasket without 50+ buyers.
Quote »I talked with the shops, machine shops, and including the guys I trust most, Nsport, and decided on a new stock headgasket and an O-ringed block for 15-20psi. Will the headgasket hold? As long as I can steer clear of detonation, I should be fine. [/quote]The head gasket will hold, but not because of the o-rings. O-ringing the block will contribute to nothing when used with a stock or Fel-Pro head gasket. Your engine will handle the same stress as if it weren't o-ringed. O-rings will only contribute to any additional reliability when used with a metal head gasket. On stock head gaskets, o-rings have nothing to hold on to. The gasket material is very soft (try to scuff one with your fingernails and you'll see).
Quote »Either way, an o-ringed block or a new custom metal headgasket, you will come out to about the same price wise. A steel headgasket would probably be fine for street, but I'd stay away from copper.
Dave [/quote]I still recommend neither an o-ringed block, nor a metal head gasket. Just a Fel-Pro or a stock head gasket, and ARP studs torqued to 70 ft-lb. Plain and simple.
Quote »I still recommend neither an o-ringed block, nor a metal head gasket. Just a Fel-Pro or a stock head gasket, and ARP studs torqued to 70 ft-lb. Plain and simple.[/quote]
Well, I guess I should be just fine then eh Mike? I will be running the stock headgasket, an O-ringed block (which according to you, wont make a difference at all), and the ARP studs I got from you. Cheers
Dave
Well, I guess I should be just fine then eh Mike? I will be running the stock headgasket, an O-ringed block (which according to you, wont make a difference at all), and the ARP studs I got from you. Cheers
Dave
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Pornflakes
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As long as the o-ringing was done properly for your type of headgasket (AROUND the metal rings on the gasket, not ON them), you should be just fine.
If the o-rings were placed right underneath the metal rings of the head gasket, there will be trouble. There is one o-ring in each one of those metal rings on the head gasket (one around each cylinder) that will prevent the gasket from "sitting" properly. In this case, the metal rings on the head gasket will remain slightly lifted from the block's surface and may cause water to leak into the cylinder(s).
This is first hand experience. I can't stress it enough.
If the o-rings were placed right underneath the metal rings of the head gasket, there will be trouble. There is one o-ring in each one of those metal rings on the head gasket (one around each cylinder) that will prevent the gasket from "sitting" properly. In this case, the metal rings on the head gasket will remain slightly lifted from the block's surface and may cause water to leak into the cylinder(s).
This is first hand experience. I can't stress it enough.
Hmm, thats weird, the guys prepping my engine for turbo said thats the WRONG way to do it, you want it on that metal ring, which is actually a fire ring and not a stock o-ring. BTW these guys have about 25years under their belts with datsun/nissan engines and force fed stuff, not to mention the insane blown v8 stuff they do.
Also, you could set up a receiver groove in either the head or the block to really lock the head gasket in there too.
Rick
Also, you could set up a receiver groove in either the head or the block to really lock the head gasket in there too.
Rick
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Pornflakes
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Right ON the metal ring is the right way to do it IF, and only if those metal rings on the gasket do NOT have an o-ring inside them. If they do have an o-ring inside them, it will hinder proper fitting (the gasket's o-ring will sit right on top of the block's o-ring).
If your headgasket did NOT have an o-ring inside each metal ring, THEN it would be proper to have the block's o-rings placed right on to those metal rings.
The problem is that the stock and Fel-Pro KA24DE headgaskets DO have an o-ring already inside of every metal ring on the gasket (one around every cylinder). This type of headgasket is NOT good for use with o-rings on the block.
If your headgasket did NOT have an o-ring inside each metal ring, THEN it would be proper to have the block's o-rings placed right on to those metal rings.
The problem is that the stock and Fel-Pro KA24DE headgaskets DO have an o-ring already inside of every metal ring on the gasket (one around every cylinder). This type of headgasket is NOT good for use with o-rings on the block.
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Pornflakes
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It's really hard to visualize if you don't have it in front of you.
I'll try to find an old stock headgasket, then cut the metal rings on it to show you that they have an o-ring inside them each (i'll take a picture and post it here). I used to have some old stock gaskets laying around from building KA24DE(T)s
I'll try to find an old stock headgasket, then cut the metal rings on it to show you that they have an o-ring inside them each (i'll take a picture and post it here). I used to have some old stock gaskets laying around from building KA24DE(T)s