Has anyone tired any kind of alternitive fuel in the Q?

[1990QOwner]

Many moons ago, I asked my chemistry teacher about using hydrogen and oxygen as fuel. Seeing as they are both highly combustible in their separate forms, I had an idea to fill a tank with water. He says that a powerful enough electrical current needed to pass through the water to break the hydrogen and oxygen bonds. I didn't know what to do after that.

I take it you need a bettery/generator powerful enough, but also lightwieght and able to be stored in an unobtrusive space. Would you need holding tanks to store the separated hydrogen and oxygen? Oxygen in a tank might be a bad idea if the car is left in the sun right?

I haven't really given much thought to fabrication. Just theory really.

You can separate Hydrogen from water with the current of a car battery, 12 volts 10 amps. Check out this link:

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

It is very interesting. I may look into it further. It is a very simple way to do what I am thinking about. I will probably try it on an ATV first so I don't blow up my Q.

[Haitian_King]

Sorry to hijack, but not sure if this is on topic.

http://www.alcoholinjectionsys....html

^^^^Is this possible in the Q? Why is this the first I've heard of it?

[1990QOwner]

Where on earth do you get fuel with a 116 octane rating? With the other method your car can totally run without the injection system.

Check out this picture that someone took while using the Hydrogen injection system:

[Q45tech]

So many [8] colorful identical bumper stickers in one thread are getting offensive.

[Haitian_King]

They're doing 60+ MPH at 500 RPM? That doesn't look right. Either his tach is broken, or something is up.

The 116+ Octane rating shows the potential of standard 91-93 combined with the water injection. I didn't know water could be used to help combustion. Come to think of it, when you spray a little water on a flame, sometimes it doesn't go all the way out. If atomized (vaporized) properly, it might boost combustion.

Tech, is this a practical application to older cars?
Modified by Haitian_King at 4:15 PM 11/16/2007

[1990QOwner]

Anything will burn when under enough pressure. If you inject water into your engine, if it is burning hot enough, than it will probably burn the water. I am not a mechanic or any kind of specialist, but I think that if you just burnt the Hydrogen in the water than it would burn much better and would take less.

Mabe somebody that knows could shine some more light on the subject.

[Haitian_King]

Yeah, you can separate them, but where will you contain them after separation? I don't think it's safe to have tanks of hydrogen and oxygen gas stored in a car. And you're from AZ, it's EXTRA hot down there.

That Water4Gas thing looks fishy. If it was really that great and easy, why haven't I heard of it or seen it on TV? Sounds like the thing that Brian would pounce on.They said it's "SAFE & NON-HAZARDOUS", but accordign to Wikipedia, HHO (the product that's being used) is highly volatile and is hard to contain properly. These guys are advocating Hellman's jars.

HHO is used in oxygen-torches. I don't think a welding/glass-making/jewler's tool, has any place under MY hood. It looks too good to be true. I'm not convinced.

Plus, they said that it works in newer cars, 1996+. You have a 90, I have a 92. A little old.

But if you want to test it out and document your progress, go for it. NICO always has room for DIY articles.

Modified by Haitian_King at 5:00 PM 11/16/2007
Modified by Haitian_King at 5:10 PM 11/16/2007

[gammer_ghn]

Its Called putting your car in neutral when your going downhill i get about 5-6 miles of free rolling when i try to hit up LA = ]

[1990QOwner]

Obviously you didn't read the whole page. You don't "contain" them anywhere, they are separated and than go strait from separation through a vacuum line and into your intake and burned in your engine.

The water4gas takes everything that I have been researching and puts it into one book. water4gas is NOT the only people that are doing this, there are thousands of people and companies who do this in different ways.

You don't see stuff like this on TV. water4gas does not recommend that you make your car run fully on water because most people who try it end up dead or threatened if they continue. There are tons of cars out there that run on WATER ONLY...the reason you don't hear about them? Because they do not want to be in trouble with the big oil companies and the government who is suppressing this kind of stuff. Think about it, if everyone knew that their car could run off of water alone do you think that everyone would be paying $3.50 per gallon for gas? NO. And thus it would ruin the the business of the big oil companies and the Government would not be able to charge tax on the water you put into your vehicle.

All you have under your hood is a quart jar of water, there is no holding tank. Once your car starts up than the contraption starts working. You turn your car off and the thing turns off.

Older cars burn fuel the same way that newer ones do.

I am going to do a bit more re-search for better ways than I am going to start experimenting.

Please continue to give me your input.

[1990QOwner]

So many [8] colorful identical bumper stickers in one thread are getting offensive.

Sorry tech, I am not meaning to be offensive.

I fixed it just for you

[maxnix]

You can separate Hydrogen from water with the current of a car battery, 12 volts 10 amps. Check out this link:

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

Oh yeah, didn't they also have the http://www.water2gas.com site?

Either you guys need to study some real science or get a much better drug connection.

[RAP]

You don't see stuff like this on TV. water4gas does not recommend that you make your car run fully on water because most people who try it end up dead or threatened if they continue. There are tons of cars out there that run on WATER ONLY...the reason you don't hear about them? Because they do not want to be in trouble with the big oil companies and the government who is suppressing this kind of stuff. Think about it, if everyone knew that their car could run off of water alone do you think that everyone would be paying $3.50 per gallon for gas? NO. And thus it would ruin the the business of the big oil companies and the Government would not be able to charge tax on the water you put into your vehicle.

Reads like the old "carburetor stories''. Now with fuel injected engines there is, still, conspiracy theories "the oil companies and the guvement" will buy up all the gas saving inventions and/or suppress the technology and the public will not be allowed to own or use such inventions/contraptions".

Seems like there is post in a previous thread that touted the "high quality pork" versus the color of the lipstick on the pig in this forum; Meaning there tended to be more serious subjects discussed here on the Q45 forum ? ? ?

Wonder wat happened? Jack

[Haitian_King]

What could be more serious than finding a mileage booster?

[maxnix]

What could be more serious than finding a mileage booster?

The zipcode for the tooth fairy?

[qsiguy]

Where on earth do you get fuel with a 116 octane rating? With the other method your car can totally run without the injection system.

Check out this picture that someone took while using the Hydrogen injection system:

I am doing alot of research myself on hydrogen "on demand" and various mpg savings methods. I am even a dealer for the ScanGauge II you see in the photos. That said, this photo is bogus. Look at the RPM. This car is obviously coasting, hence the super high mileage.

Here are a couple of related sites and forums I am on where you can get a more unbiased discussion on the subject. They actually discuss and try their own experiments instead of claiming to be "all knowing" and saying it's impossible like a few here (you know who you are).

http://www.mpgresearch.comhttp://www.hydropowercar.com

And this site has some great products and instructional material and has proven results, crazy claims and fake You Tube videos to try and prove what they are doing. I have purchased from them and they are reputable.

http://www.eagle-research.com

I have my own site for MPG stuff as well, mainly informational but I haven't updated it recently. Only thing I sell is the ScanGauge which is only for OBDII vehicles.

http://www.mpgsolutions.org

[1990QOwner]

If you would like to join this discussion than please be positive and come with an open mind. Thank you.

[Haitian_King]

The zipcode for the tooth fairy?

So better fuel economy in this time of skyrocketing gas prices is absurd to you?

I've always suspected you were an idiot. This confirms it.

ZING!

[RAP]

What could be more serious than finding a mileage booster?

If in fact you are going to school, just slide into the library and the PHYSICS section.

Key words: ENERGY FUEL/ENERGY REQUIRED TO DO ANY WORK with the internal combustion engine

HORSEPOWER

There that'll get you started

Also don't get sucked into the TORNADO fuel saving device. That's a real loser.

Maybe the resident engineer will chime in and set everything to rest.

Jack

[1990QOwner]

Also don't get sucked into the TORNADO fuel saving device. That's a real loser.

Have you tested this device? Have you any intention of testing it? Have you even looked into it for 5 min.?

If your answer to any of these questions than please stay out of this discussion. If you would like to bash fuel saving devices than you are welcome to start your own thread. Thanks

[Haitian_King]

?

If in fact I'm going to school? What's that got to do with anything?

The HHO thing I'm not sold on.

The mileage booster I was referring to was the water injection method. Apparently this method was quite popular in aviation and was widely used by the Luftwaffe to get planes off the ground. This was before the jet engine.

My question to "TECH" was about the practicality of this method with a VH45DE and if it was even possible.

Maybe YOU should do some damn reading.

http://www.alcoholinjectionsys....html

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/ ... _info.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...es%29

There, That'll get YOU started.

Snide remarks and feigned expertise from someone not familiar with a VH45DE really isn't necessary.

But you are right. The Tornado thing is a rip-off. I hear it lowers fuel economy rather than boosts it. It decreases the amount of air going in.

[gammer_ghn]

See so far i love your posts and all... but the whole thing i miss is the old Nico way that everyone helped to come up with something new or perhaps of rigging up something like the Nico ECU but yet again it seems like its all dead now for some reason…. today i started on making my rig and testing it lemme tell you what you can be a tester and for you the cost is nothing except word of mouth of proving the whole HHO idea and please stop the hating here since us "HHO supporters or people who want to come up with a method for getting better MPG" are trying to come up for a way that all of us could benefit so don’t trash a thread like this since its very informative and it’s a brainstorm type of a thread and probably at the end of the day all of us could benefit from it!!!

Nuff said!!!

[Q45tech]

"The overall efficiency of producing, compressing, and using the hydrogen in a fuel cell is 46.9%. This is not much greater than the 40% efficiency of the Prius hybrid and well below the efficiency of a diesel hybrid. Researchers at Massachusetts Institute Of Technology (MIT) have reported that diesel with hybrid is more green than hydrogen fuel cell vehicles."

"Burning hydrogen does not create any carbon dioxide emissions. However, producing hydrogen typically does create carbon dioxide emissions. At the November 17, 2003 Ministerial Meeting in Washington DC hosted by the US DOE’s International Partnership for the Hydrogen Economy (IPHE), The World Resources Institute (WRI) presented a paper entitled Environmental Imperatives in a Hydrogen Economy.

"When combusted, each gallon of gasoline creates about 25.3 pounds—of carbon dioxide. Here's how it breaks down. A gallon weighs a little over 6 pounds, 85 percent of which is carbon, giving 5.25 pounds of carbon per gallon. Each carbon atom combines with two oxygen atoms from the atmosphere when it burns, adding 14 pounds per gallon, for a total emission of 5.25 + 14 = 19.25 pounds of CO2. Just to produce gasoline from oil creates an additional 6.05 pounds of carbon dioxide, giving 25.3 balloons of CO2 for every gallon. [4.1 pounds of CO2 for every pound of gasoline].

One can see that only electrolysis using renewable sources of energy such as wind, solar, hydroelectric or geothermal have no carbon dioxide emissions associated with hydrogen production via electrolysis. As more than 55% of the electricity produced in the USA is based on coal as the fuel, there are significant quantities of carbon dioxide emissions even when the hydrogen is produced via electrolysis. Steam Methane Reforming (SMR) is the most common method of hydrogen production and each pound of hydrogen produced emits 9.42 pounds of carbon dioxide.

[gammer_ghn]

Yes you are right but were talking about making your own on your vehicle which will be leaning on the battery and charging systems such as solar chargers we don’t use our cars for any longer trips than 100 miles a day at least I don’t. So using electrolysis under our hood and making some hydrogen to give us 4-5 mpg or even more comes out worthy. Since with the age of our car were looking at 15-17 mpg baseline and after adding the booster and trying to achieve 20-25 is a nice motivation since as of now im paying 3.69 a Gallon with God knows what’s in my 91oc here in LA area sounds great to be honest... Im young and my pockets are not too deep and spending $200 or less on something that will pay for it self by my 4th fill up sounds great so Q45tech can you give us ideas or suggestions since your extensive knowledge about the Q and some other things could even help you to gain a few horses and MPG instead of burning us down?

[Q45tech]

Unfortunately the O2, software , and cats preclude any meaningful increase in cruise mpg. They hold the injector pulse at 14.7AF so the cats are optimized to reduce emissions. If you lower fuel pressure the ecu will just open injectors longer............if you use E10 the O2/ecu will be fooled into opening injectors 3.8-5% longer vs non oxygenated gasoline!

Running leaner if possible { via a software rewrite} than 14.7 plays havoc with Nox emissions and might melt the cats.

At low rpm cruise in 4th gear the Q engine barely makes enough HP/Torque to hold a steady speed with AC on..................burning less fuel would be a bad idea. Such is the fate of a high performance/rpm tuned 32 valve V8. Why 2 valves get somewhat [4-6%] better mpg at low rpm cruise than 4V.

Of you can find something truely proven cheaper to burn than gasoline let us know.

[1990QOwner]

The system that I am looking at is a Hydrogen injection system. Hydrogen will burn, Hydrogen is very very flammable, and where can you get Hydrogen? Out of WATER! The small system that I am building is just a Hydrogen injection system, but put it on a much larger scale. Build a Hydrogen generator that will produce enough to run your car entirely off of Hydrogen.

There are engines that run off of Hydrogen alone. Most of the time this Hydrogen is compressed into tanks, but why compress it when it is already compressed into water? The trick is to build a generator that will produce enough Hydrogen gas to run your engine off of it.

[gammer_ghn]

Unfortunately the O2, software , and cats preclude any meaningful increase in cruise mpg. They hold the injector pulse at 14.7AF so the cats are optimized to reduce emissions. If you low fuel pressure the ecu will just open injectors longer............if you use E10 the O2/ecu will be fooled into opening injectors 3.8-5% longer vs non oxygenated gasoline!

Running leaner if possible { via a software rewrite} than 14.7 plays havoc with Nox emissions and might melt the cats.

Of you can find something truely proven cheaper to burn than gasoline let us know.

so from what you are saying is that by using HH0 i will be melting my cats in the long run? and if that is the case is there any way to short your O2 sensor into a tune that allows more hydrogen to be burned without having the ecu adjust it self and put more fuel in there?

The system that I am looking at is a Hydrogen injection system. Hydrogen will burn, Hydrogen is very very flammable, and where can you get Hydrogen? Out of WATER! The small system that I am building is just a Hydrogen injection system, but put it on a much larger scale. Build a Hydrogen generator that will produce enough to run your car entirely off of Hydrogen.

There are engines that run off of Hydrogen alone. Most of the time this Hydrogen is compressed into tanks, but why compress it when it is already compressed into water? The trick is to build a generator that will produce enough Hydrogen gas to run your engine off of it.

http://www.h2stations.org/

there you go somewhere for you to fill up!!! i will be visiting the one in my neighborhood to see how things work ill update you guys on that

[1990QOwner]

OK, I have been doing a bunch of reading on various sites. It sounds to me like the main problem with running a car off of Hydrogen only is finding a way to produce enough with less than 14 amps. Until someone finds a more efficient way to produce this with less than 14 amps than it looks like we are down to just using this Hydrogen generator as a supplement to gasoline.

[1990QOwner]

Why pay someone to full up your Hydrogen car? Why not just produce it yourself?

[Q45tech]

As I said learn to rewrite the fuel trim software or hire some one to redesign/ rewrite the ecu. Obviously a pre OBD2 ecu would be easier.

The problem is not so simple as tweaking WOT parameters as ecu checks every 1/10 of a second to add or subtract fuel [from the trim circuit].

We cannot suggest much more as even that would be considered emission tampering.

[gammer_ghn]

OK, I have been doing a bunch of reading on various sites. It sounds to me like the main problem with running a car off of Hydrogen only is finding a way to produce enough with less than 14 amps. Until someone finds a more efficient way to produce this with less than 14 amps than it looks like we are down to just using this Hydrogen generator as a supplement to gasoline.

Why pay someone to full up your Hydrogen car? Why not just produce it yourself?

its called using pulsating waves of DC electricity you can use a DC electric motor control unit or a DC pulse... 3-4 amps would be more than enough... you haven’t read enough and its cheap and you will get abundant amount of Hydrogen in less time and wait that’s why....

As I said learn to rewrite the fuel trim software or hire some one to redesign/ rewrite the ecu. Obviously a pre OBD2 ecu would be easier.

The problem is not so simple as tweaking WOT parameters as ecu checks every 1/10 of a second to add or subtract fuel [from the trim circuit].

We cannot suggest much more as even that would be considered emission tampering.

Thank you ill take your advise so since it cleans the emissions a bit i think i have a legal idea we will see in the coming chapters = ]