Harry Reid and the slave-loving Republicans

[audtatious]

Harry Reid today in the Senate:

"Instead of joining us on the right side of history, all the Republicans can come up with is this:, 'slow down, stop everything, let's start over.' If you think you've heard these same excuses before, you're right. When this country belatedly recognized the wrongs of slavery, there were those who dug in their heels and said, 'Slow down, it's too early, let's wait, things aren't bad enough.' When women spoke up for the right to speak up, they wanted to vote, some insisted they simply, slow down, there will be a better day to do that, today isn't quite right. When this body was on the verge of guaranteeing equal civil rights to everyone regardless of the color of their skin, some senators resorted to the same filibuster threats we hear today."

I guess he forgot that it was Dems who were for slavery and imposed Jim Crow laws and that it was then Democrat Strom Thurmond who tried to filibuster the Civil Rights Act of 1957 and that again the Dems themselves who filibustered the Civil Rights act of 1964.

[AZhitman]

...and a Republican drafted the Emancipation Proclamation.

Reid's an idiot.

[RobPaulson]

ya, sure, because human rights is totally a comparable issue to a scientific process and theory validation.

There is no scientific fact conceivable which tells us slavery is right or wrong. It's not a quantitative thing. This analogy is straight propaganda used to win over all the 'on-edge' bleeding heart Americans who have NO IDEA what they are even hearing or being convinced of.

I am just absolutely fuming over the ignorance and stupidity of the human race right now. This is f***ing pathetic.

[smockers83]

The Dems also started and protested their own war back in the day, causing students to get shot and killed.

They are a confused bunch. They rarely appreciate history, always trying to think they have the new idea.

Although, their ignorance is no laughing matter.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Yes...because he represents the Democrats as a whole.Just like Elephants are against anything....ever...

[audtatious]

He, Pelosi and Obama are the highest leaders of your donkey party who are for everything except admitting that historically they are the racists and they really don't like people that much

[AZhitman]

I'm wondering HOW he ever got elected.

Then again, US History is rarely a strong point for that party's candidates.

[audtatious]

When they restate history to those who don't care to fact check then some tend to believe it as fact. Say it long enough and a lie will be thought of as truth, just like the Republican party being the party of Slavery when the truth is that the Republican party came into being in order to fight the Dems support of that very issue.

[themadscientist]

truth in government would cause the whole system to collapse.

[audtatious]

Seems the UN is pressing for just that to happen......

[AZhitman]

My question is, When did it become acceptable to NOT be held accountable for the things that come out of your mouth?

WHY is Reid not being called on the carpet by the Administration?

Where are his constituents? Are they all as dumb as him? Are they revisioninsts as well?

I think he'd be wise to look at which party opposed, in LARGE MAJORITY, the Civil Rights Act.

What a moron.

[audtatious]

It's not proper etiquette to call out a Dem in office. Unless you are a Republican who calls them out and gets reamed for it. Only us far-right bible thumpers, and Faux News, had issue with Kerry and others calling our soldiers murderers and baby killers, and all the racism claims being thrown out. The media loves the Dem viewpoint. Hell, even Law & Order is being used to attack people as a means to steer blame away from others.

[rjdmmfl1]

Audtatious,

I think you are taking one thing, and incorrectly blending it with the other...

reid doesn't state that it was the republicans that were against slavery, nor does he state that the republicans were against the Civil Rights Act...

he's simply stating that there have historically been a group of individuals that have attempted to slow down change when it may not have been popular but it was the right thing to do. He simply relates today's republicans and their efforts to slow down health reform to individuals in the past that have attempted to slow down change. IN NO PLACE does he say that it was the republicans that were the impediments in the past...

the fact of the matter is that by and large Americans are just not smart people. he would have simply confused folks if he put the historical events of the past in terms of democrats vs republicans because MOST Americans probably do not know that the Republicans were the party of change and reform in the past and that they were the ones that were the head of measures like the Emancipation proclamation, Civil Rights Act, etc. The Democratic party may as well have been called the "Southern" party as the southerners were the rank and file democrats... and just as there were a bunch of ignorant racist biggots in the south then that were against change, there are now a bunch of ignorant money hungry, insurance whore loving republicans that are against change today.

the only people in this country that are against health reform are either, ignorant, misinformed by republican misinformation, of those that have never been very, very sick. because the truth of the matter is, you can't agree with our current state of health care if you've ever been extremely sick... because if you're sick enough, your only options are to die soon with money, or die later broke as hell after you've depleted your life savings fighting a disease that your insurance company has refused to pay for!

[AZhitman]

the only people in this country that are against health reform are either, ignorant, misinformed by republican misinformation, of those that have never been very, very sick. because the truth of the matter is, you can't agree with our current state of health care if you've ever been extremely sick... because if you're sick enough, your only options are to die soon with money, or die later broke as hell after you've depleted your life savings fighting a disease that your insurance company has refused to pay for!

"I disagree.

My health insurance never let me down.

I'm a lower-middle-class, generic government employee with an HMO. Despite nearly a MILLION dollars in medical bills racked up by me (several major surgeries) and my late wife (5-year battle with cancer), plus 3 kids with various kid-type medical stuff, I NEVER once was disappointed with my care.

I disagree with the reforms being proposed. I am neither misinformed, ignorant, and I have been gravely ill. Twice.

I take offense at your ill-informed and blanket assessment of those who disagree with the current administration's "sky is falling" treatment of healthcare in America.

The fact that you even used the word "Republican" to tag those in opposition erodes the credibility of your argument. The right doesn't have a monopoly on opposition to the proposed reforms. Shame, shame, shame.

Of all people, I thought YOU would be above labeling things based on stereotypes.

Now is not the time. We have an economy and war to take care of FIRST.

The majority of Americans are NOT unhappy with the current state of affairs as it relates to healthcare - Interestingly, EVEN some of those who you'd think would be upset with it.

[srellim234]

AZ- a lot of your good coverage is explained in one of your first sentences and has nothing to do with the insurance available or the insurance coverage all of us have to deal with in the private sector. You admit you are a government employee.

Simply put, government employees do not understand what is going on in the private sector because they are handled quite differently by the same insurance companies and HMOs than the private sector. The insurance people know who has the power to affect their industry and the profits therein. They understand that government employees complaining about their coverage on a daily basis in their offices would get a huge reaction and backlash from their elected employers.

I see it here. Our insurance coverage therough my wife's county job is far superior and handled totally differently by the insurance company than the insurance I had through my corporate job at an $11 billion a year drug wholesaler. You are on the side of the equation that the insurance companies need to keep happy.

[audtatious]

Audtatious,I think you are taking one thing, and incorrectly blending it with the other...

No, I'm simply stating the general consensus that is present in which the Republicans were all slave owners who hate blacks/Mexicans and were the ones against the Civil Rights act. I hear it all the time and It's not historically true. It's a constant insinuation that is untrue. Reread what he said, the insinuation is there. Then again, it won't matter to you as you pretty much state that the current Republican party is simply now the racial portion that used to be the Democrat party.

the fact of the matter is that by and large Americans are just not smart people.

And we need "smart people" to tell all the dumb Americans what to do with their lives? Who exactly can burden that responsibility, you? I surely don't want that responsibility and want to make my own choices and decisions, good or bad. I also don't know everything which means I know better than to try and make decisions for others. Unfortunately, some seem to think they need to force their own mindset on others because they feel the others are wrong or stupid. Pretty much anyone who lives in a red state seems to fit their criteria. I don't care what liberals think as long as they don't force their will on me.

the only people in this country that are against health reform are either, ignorant, misinformed by republican misinformation, of those that have never been very, very sick. because the truth of the matter is, you can't agree with our current state of health care if you've ever been extremely sick... because if you're sick enough, your only options are to die soon with money, or die later broke as hell after you've depleted your life savings fighting a disease that your insurance company has refused to pay for!

Again, assumptions you can't back up without using your own Democratic rhetoric.

[AZhitman]

The humor in this is the same as I've outlined before...

The people who view me with such disdain, and resort to name-calling and questioning my intelligence, JUST because I don't agree with their flawed agenda are the SAME people who can't hold their own in a debate about the matter without resorting to empty emotional pleas.

I ask, who is the more intelligent one - The person who's found a way to navigate the minefield of our culture and has made it work for him, or the one sitting on the sidelines, wringing his hands and bleating about the sorry state of affairs they're in?__________________

Steve - I CHOSE wisely. I could pull six figures in the private sector, but I'd ALWAYS worry about the stability of the company, the leadership, the health insurance or the solvency of the company stock.

I chose to forego the "quick score" for greater peace of mind and long-term stability.

As part of my job involves conducting investigations into such matters, I understand completely what is going on in the private sector. Questioning my credibility or level of knowledge of the private healthcare system would be a bad idea. Keep in mind, I am very active in SEMA's work towards getting better treatment for small business owners, as well as the efforts of the National Federation of Independent Business (member)...

See, I'd love to leave my 9-to-5 and run my business full-time. I can't, because of the prohibitive costs of healthcare for my family.

So, let's not toss me in with the "uninformed".

WE oppose the current healthcare reform plan:http://www.americanbankingnews...-bill/

[srellim234]

See, I'd love to leave my 9-to-5 and run my business full-time. I can't, because of the prohibitive costs of healthcare for my family.

I know you are not proposing adding to the public employee rolls as a solution to the current insurance situation, but that is the example you are saying is the option you had to take to get good coverage for your family. That's simply not an option available to everyone who would like to or needs such coverage.

I am adamantly opposed to the current proposed healthcare reform, too. It simply will not work in an affordable way for America. That said, something does have to be done or the current system will continue to destroy the middle class and lead to even worse health care for a lot more people than those who are being denied it now.

Fixing a lot of what is wrong with both the government and the private sector (specifically corporate boardrooms) isn't going to happen until the majority of voters and shareholders start throwing the major parties and incumbents out of their elected positions. The change has to start from the ground up and not the other way around.

[AZhitman]

Agreed 100%.

I can always count on you to be rational and sensible, even when we don't agree.

My issue with this is the people who shout, label and badger from the sidelines without knowing what they're talking about.

Doc's a good example. Have you READ the bill? Are you aware that a MAJORITY of Americans do NOT want this? Are you aware that BOTH proposals contain MANDATES that you buy insurance or face legal sanctions?

Since when can our government MAKE a free citizen purchase anything? This is the first time in history that the government has proposed FORCING a private individual to buy something they may not want (and threaten them with fines or criminal charges for non-compliance.

Reid and his lefty thugs are IGNORING the will of the American people and I expect ALL good Americans to take careful note of who is GAMING the system to get this passed. Obama continues to pooh-pooh the assessments of experts AND the MAJORITY of Americans in this matter.

All of a sudden, we're labeled "racist" or "ignorant" or "misinformed" for opposing this power grab? You gotta be effing KIDDING me.

It is an erosion of liberties, plain and simple, and to all those who would call me names for defending our liberties, I say, "screw you".

[AZhitman]

he would have simply confused folks if he put the historical events of the past in terms of democrats vs republicans because MOST Americans probably do not know that the Republicans were the party of change and reform in the past and that they were the ones that were the head of measures like the Emancipation proclamation, Civil Rights Act, etc.

Then he should have kept his damn mouth shut. He should have left the word "Republicans" OUT of his rant.

No, Doc. His slack-jawed babbling was INTENDED to misrepresent the issue. Make no mistake.

To assume that we're all too "stupid" to figure this out is more an indictment of YOUR understanding of the issue than anything else.

Yes, the right opposes these measures. So do the MAJORITY of Americans.

But it's being rammed down our throats by a party that will stop at nothing to see their agenda passed, regardless of the impact to the economy, liberty, and the democratic process of governing.

It amazes me how quickly the historical lessons of the past are forgotten. How about a little respect for the party that drove progress? And if people ARE ignorant to this fact, how about standing up and educating people on the point you made above?

[audtatious]

The Republicans didn't have the votes to stop anything. Everything was worked in back room deals between Democrats in order to get their votes before Christmas. The amount of money now going to Democrats for pet projects and such that is included in this bill is retarded. Why do it before Christmas? Because the leaders did not want to allow the public to address their Senators. The Dems know the majority don't want what they are doing but are doing it anyway as they know this is their only chance to ram this sorry legislation down everyone's throats.

2010 will be a bad year for Democrats seeking reelection.

[AZhitman]

How else can they explain the rush to completion?

There's a REASON that healthcare reform has failed time and time again... For decades. But they don't want to acknowledge that.

NOTHING good can come of a rush-job. The current administration is holding the US hostage and they know it.

So, to those who take issue with my opposition to this swindle, remember that YOU are agreeing that it's OK to mortgage our childrens' future to appease the minority... it's OK to forego our current economic goals to satisfy a vocal few, and it's OK to trade liberties for compliance.

Let me know how you sleep tonight.

[audtatious]

Only appease _some_ of them. Per this plan, 15 million would go directly to Medicaid, others will be brought in and over 15 million won't get insurance at all.

[rjdmmfl1]

I do not have the free time to address every statement..., but I'll afddress a few...

AZ, your entire rant about how your healthcare plan has never let you down is completely useless in this discussion. You can not compare your healthcare as a government employee to what the average US citizen with health insurance has to go through. If indeed you have done research on this area, then surely you are aware of the policies in place that allow insurance companies to A. raise the price on their policy holder's premiums if they get gravely sickB. Set a cap at coverage for an individual when they get gravely sickC. deny individuals from the right to obtain insurance if they have a pre-existing condition

these are three of the chief problems with our current insurance companies that allow even middle class folks with jobs and insurance to go broke fighting a disease. if you have been sick, and haven't had your premiums jump sky high through the roof, or didn't have a cap set at you cost (which you state to be in the millions) then you can not relate to what has happened to thousands of Americans across the country who do not have access to your GOVERNMENT RUN HMO...which as stated earlier, is very different from non goverment plans. The fact that you left that information out of your rant implies that you knew this to be true, but did not want to step on your own argument,,,, that is a shame , and not in good form.

regarding my statement of "the ignorant, misinformed, or haven't been very sick" , i would only amend that to state "haven't been very sick under a NON GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH PLAN" I would think that would have been obvious but i forgot who I'm talking to...

ignorant is defined as lack of knowledge or education, in this case, specifically lack of knowledge of the entire health care system.

Audtatious,regarding your first rebuttal, if anyone believes that the Democrats freed the slaves then they are simply ignorant of the facts. You can't blame reid for their ignorance! His statements were left open for an individual to take from it what they want. You say there was insinuation that republicans were bad people and the cause of our countries previous ills. I simply read it as a comparison of two groups: that of obstructionists of the past, and the republicans as health reform obstructionists of today. One can indeed assume that the past obstructionists were republicans if they want but it was not explicitly stated, so do NOT attribute that to him, its unfair... the best you can say, and what you should have said from the beginning is that it was implied

regarding dumb people needing smart people to make decisions for them... absolutely... would you let a mentally handicap person put a gun to their head and pull the trigger??? No!

AZ and Audtatious

AZ says that the majority of americans don't want health reform. what is the reason for this? Is it because they THINK that the current health care system is OK? Or is it because they have been misinformed by insurance company lobbyists and SOME (not all) republicans that just don't want to see a single Obama administration objective passed successfully, even at the cost of the American people? If its because they think their current health care is just fine... then I'd argue that unless they are in a goverment plan, they are simply WRONG! there is nothing currently in place to stop insurance companies from dropping them if they get sick, or raising their premiums to unfair prices, etc. Most americans THINK they have good insurance, until they get sick. And AZ, the data shows that if you had a NORMAL, PRIVATE insurance plan not affiliated with the government, chances are you would currently be dirt broke or dead right now after your insurance company dropped you, or cut off covering your medical expenses. There are countless americans in your shoes, with insurance that was cut off ... but they didn't have your goverment program... what did they do wrong... other than get sick?

now back to forcing americans to have insurance... if either of you were completely informed about what goes on in hospital emergency rooms, then you'd know that our current health care costs are out of control mainly because of the uninsured... what would cost $200 total in an outpatient setting for seeing a doctor for the common cold costs THOUSANDS of dollars when that same person walks into the emergency room and tries to get the same treatment.

Our system can not afford for people to NOT have health insurance... so yes, I agree that if people don't realize that them being selfish and not carrying insurance costs the entire system A LOT of money, then they should be penalized until they get health insurance. But in the process, we have to make health insurance affordable, and that's why I WISH the Dems had left the public option in place to force lower prices amongst insurance carriers. yes, the public option put private health insurance out of business in canada, but its better than the alternative... the collapse of our health care system in the next 10-15 years

And you can call it the "sky is falling" propaganda if you want to, but experts on both sides of the isle agree that we can NOT survive under the current system...

so either you agree that we need reform, or you don't.... if you agree that we need reform, but just don't agree with the current bill or the way that the left is going about doing it, then that's understandable, and its a completely respectable opinion. No one will EVER agree on exactly how to get this done.

But if you are one of the americans that think our current situation is OK, and will last for ever, and we don't need health reform at all, in any way, then yes, I will yell it at the top of my lungs... YOU ARE AN IGNORANT UNINFORMED BUFFOON, and thank God our healthcare is not in your hands...

Nothing ever gets done in the Senate unless one party rules and can unite, because there will always be those in the opposing party that would like to stall the efforts for as long as possible simply to play the politics game. Well health care is not a policy game, nor should it be a business where companies make a PROFIT from DENYING health care coverage. Universal health care should be an absolute right!

you think that there are other issues that could deserve more attention, and that's your opinion, but its the opinion of many folks that, since we have prevented what was looking to be a depression, and somewhat, I repeat, somewhat stabilized the economy (although we are still losing jobs, economic experts agree that the economy is stabilizing and not spiralling uncontrollably towards a depression) then Yes, now with the current momentum is a great time to pass health care reform... and like it or not.. IT's GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!

you say your grandkids will suffer, but if they get sick... whether they know or not, they will thank the government from doing what they are doing right now... History will be the judge of who is correct, none of us can predict that now at this time!
Modified by rjdmmfl1 at 4:40 PM 12/21/2009

[rjdmmfl1]

It is an erosion of liberties, plain and simple, and to all those who would call me names for defending our liberties, I say, "screw you".

We HAVE to send our kids to school, or home school them... if not we are fined...

we HAVE to pay taxes (many would rather not do this, but they are forced to anyway, or face sanctions/fines)

Are these erosions of liberties that threaten to bring down America???? No, these are laws that were voted on by the representattives of the PEOPLE... no taxation without representation right?

Well guess what, the 60 "elected by the people" democrats in the Senate and the 200+ "elected by the people" Representatives in the House that put forth these bills are representatives of the people... so if they put forth legislature that now requires folks to buy into a health insurance plan to keep the overall costs of health care from skyrocketing out of control, they are legally within their right to do this, just as they were within their rights to force us to educate our children...

if you're gonna be an advocate against the elected officials forcing us to do something, and penalizing us if we don't, then be a global advocate of this cause, and not just the current one that you disagree with...

anyone that thinks that every national issue should be laid at the hands of every voting citizen simply because they can vote is not thinking rationally... we elect officials to make decisions that many, most of us do not have the understanding to make... you want Joe the Plumber to have Clinton's job and be secretary of state??? no, you want an elected people with the correct backround and education to make the decisions for that office... so why in the world do you all think that Joe the Plumber should be making our healthcare decisions... half of the people in this country probably don't even red their car manuals when they get a car, and some of them can't read.. and these are the people you want making important decisions... I'm sure that every citizen has not read through the current Bill (I haven't in its entirety, but I've read parts) enough to know the ins and outs of evetrything, nor could many of them understand what they were reading if they read it. You say that the mjority of Americans are against this bill, well the majority of EXPERTS and health care providers are NOT against the idea of reform, some may jsut be against the way the current administration plns to go about it... So yes, many may be against this particular bill, and its structure, but no intelligent EXPERT has come on the record and said we don't need reform and that eberything is OK... if they hve, please show me one...

I think many of the public can't seperate the idea of the necessity of reform from the way that the Dems are handling it... and thus, you may have folks saying that they don't want reform, when in fact they absolutely would want it if they knew what the idea of reform was trying to protect them from.... and a large part of that involves money hungry insurance companies....

so let's agree that we need reform, because if we can't start from that point, then we are obviously not looking at the same health care system...

AZ, I'm glad you have the insurance that you do, because it means that you and your family are healthy, and for me that is better than winning any debate... but you would not be singing the same tune , with your medical issues, if you didn't have that government sponsored insurance... unfortunately, my guess is, you wouldn't be singing any tune right now at all... and that is a sad thought my friend!

We could be having the debate to just take all critically ill patienst and putting them in hospice... Lord knows that would save us hundred of millions of dollars in health care costs

http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/...6/750

this was a great study, if we were a brutally intelligent society, then this is what we would be talking about... in other, arguably more liberal-thinking societies such as India, there is none of this spending millions of dollars on the elderly just so they can get a few extra weeks out of the old ticker... that's intelligent, it may not be sympathetic or compassionate, but it sure does keep health care costs down!


Modified by rjdmmfl1 at 4:47 PM 12/21/2009

[audtatious]

Audtatious,regarding your first rebuttal, if anyone believes that the Democrats freed the slaves then they are simply ignorant of the facts. You can't blame reid for their ignorance! His statements were left open for an individual to take from it what they want. You say there was insinuation that republicans were bad people and the cause of our countries previous ills. I simply read it as a comparison of two groups: that of obstructionists of the past, and the republicans as health reform obstructionists of today. One can indeed assume that the past obstructionists were republicans if they want but it was not explicitly stated, so do NOT attribute that to him, its unfair... the best you can say, and what you should have said from the beginning is that it was implied

How are Republicans obstructionists when not a single of their votes matter? Hell, they can't even try and waste time without the Senate leaders ignoring over 200 years of rule and stopping it. If roles were reversed it would have been a huge issue in the media and with the Dems as a whole.

Those who were obstructionists were the Democrats that had not been paid off for their votes yet.

regarding dumb people needing smart people to make decisions for them... absolutely... would you let a mentally handicap person put a gun to their head and pull the trigger??? No!

So, you plan on having that handicapped person tied down all their life to protect them from themselves? While it would be a horrible thing to happen it can't be worse than the reason why they are doing it in the first place. Hell, if dumbasses want to drink 3-4 bottles of cough syrup and they die because of it then that's their own fault. keeping them from it simply pushes them to find more ways to screw themselves up.

Heartless? Maybe. If people want to do harm to themselves they will find a way regardless of regulations and restrictions.

AZ and Audtatious

AZ says that the majority of americans don't want health reform. what is the reason for this? Is it because they THINK that the current health care system is OK? Or is it because they have been misinformed by insurance company lobbyists

Nope. We are all for health care reform. We simply don't follow nor believe in the socialized medicine route.

[rjdmmfl1]

Nope. We are all for health care reform. We simply don't follow nor believe in the socialized medicine route.

and neither you, nor AZ, nor the 40 republicans in the Senate have proposed a logical problem to the issues or decent counter bill that would solve all of the problems... in fact, most of the republicans were down right opposed to the sanctions on health insurance companies... so who's in who's wallet

and regarding this whole argument, neither you nor AZ has ever explicitly stated that you agree that we need health care reform until you just now...

in fact, AZ states that "his health insurance has never once let him down"...

so in essence, he's saying "I'm straight, so phuck the rest of the US that can't get health insurance because they can't afford it, or because they have preexisting conditions..."

WOW, way to put the good of the country in its proper perspective... I understand that you all don't like having your wealth shared with the rest of the nation... even though John Nash won his Nobel Price for the idea that..."in a group dynamics, the best outcome arises when everyone does what's best for themselves.. AND THE REST OF THE GROUP"

this was the economic theory proven by mathematical formula that the idea of "SOCIALISM" as it relates to economics has its merits... yet you and AZ in your infinite wisdom say this is horsesh*t huh?????

[RobPaulson]

the fact of the matter is that by and large Americans are just not smart people. he would have simply confused folks if he put the historical events of the past in terms of democrats vs republicans because MOST Americans probably do not know that the Republicans were the party of change and reform in the past and that they were the ones that were the head of measures like the Emancipation proclamation, Civil Rights Act, etc...

regarding your first rebuttal, if anyone believes that the Democrats freed the slaves then they are simply ignorant of the facts. You can't blame reid for their ignorance! His statements were left open for an individual to take from it what they want.

regarding dumb people needing smart people to make decisions for them... absolutely... would you let a mentally handicap person put a gun to their head and pull the trigger??? No!

So ... you and you're party believes they are smarter and should lead the ignorant... yet... you use the peoples known ignorances against them, to mislead them into an emotional decision, to further your own agenda? Oh, I get it now.

And the personal attacks, blanket emotional arguments, blind party assumtions begin:

there were a bunch of ignorant racist biggots in the south then that were against change, there are now a bunch of ignorant money hungry, insurance whore loving republicans that are against change today.

republicans that just don't want to see a single Obama administration objective passed successfully, even at the cost of the American people?

this was the economic theory proven by mathematical formula that the idea of "SOCIALISM" as it relates to economics has its merits... yet you and AZ in your infinite wisdom say this is horsesh*t huh?????

[audtatious]

and neither you, nor AZ, nor the 40 republicans in the Senate have proposed a logical problem to the issues or decent counter bill that would solve all of the problems... in fact, most of the republicans were down right opposed to the sanctions on health insurance companies... so who's in who's wallet

Republicans have come out with plans on numerous occasions. Maybe you should broaden your horizons and look instead of swallowing the party line?

and regarding this whole argument, neither you nor AZ has ever explicitly stated that you agree that we need health care reform until you just now...

Maybe you should go back and read this forum more? Wading into a discussion and making assumptions makes you uninformed. Based on your value system that makes you ignorant and in need of being lead.

in fact, AZ states that "his health insurance has never once let him down"...

so in essence, he's saying "I'm straight, so phuck the rest of the US that can't get health insurance because they can't afford it, or because they have preexisting conditions..."

Where did you read that?

WOW, way to put the good of the country in its proper perspective... I understand that you all don't like having your wealth shared with the rest of the nation... even though John Nash won his Nobel Price for the idea that..."in a group dynamics, the best outcome arises when everyone does what's best for themselves.. AND THE REST OF THE GROUP"

So, your solution based upon a preconceived conclusion is to take what people won't give on their own?

this was the economic theory proven by mathematical formula that the idea of "SOCIALISM" as it relates to economics has its merits... yet you and AZ in your infinite wisdom say this is horsesh*t huh?????

Where has socialism worked? Surely, you must think it is normal for a democracy to turn into a socialistic society. Sorry, that's not what this nation was built from. Why don't you and your creed take all your spare change to help the poor? Seems you have some as you spend lots on your car and that could go to some family that has been in Section 8 housing for 3 generations. Reach deep brotha.

[srellim234]

As an independent centrist I recognize that a certain amount of regulation is necessary to keep the corporate greed in check, especially when it is negatively affecting so many citizens of our country. One thing that liberals completely miss in all of this debate, however, is that they have always had the ability to correct a lot of the ills of healthcare without even involving the government and have failed to do so.

They could, at any time, pool their resources and create a private HMO that could solicit customers just like any other insurance company. They could bring competition into the marketplace with that new company, but I suspect that they realize that such a company that acted responsibly, unlike the current insurance companies, couldn't make enough of a profit and/or attract enough qualified talent to survive as a company.

Secondly, and more importantly, they as individuals should be investing in companies, using their proxy vote power to force the existing companies to behave responsibly. What they would have to come to terms with is actually deciding how much of their own money and investment profit they're willing to give up in order to have the company act that way.

It's oversimplified, but liberals hide behind the government to do their dirty work; conservatives hide behind the corporate structure to do their dirty work. Neither side is willing to really be open and compromise for the benefit of the country. There is middle ground, but neither side is interested in meeting there.