Hard lessons in buying a car online

[GseaQ]

Hi all,

While some may think this post should go in a “General” or “Infinitis for Sale” forum, it is Q45 specific to a certain extent. If a moderator thinks it should be moved to another forum, go ahead, but please don’t just delete it. Thanks.

It’s time to tell you all about my experience with buying a car online. It has been a hugely expensive proposition and I learned some valuable lessons. Hopefully, whoever reads this will learn from my mistakes. I did, but at a serious price.

I had known about this particular car for years as it belonged to respected NICO member (moderator) who was also a member of the old Yahoo Club. I’m sure he took care of the car and ultimately sold it to another respected NICO member (also a moderator), who I bought it from.

As it turned out, there may have been a difference in acceptable standards by different people and different people’s opinions as to what excellent condition means. Another bad thing is that online pictures don’t show stains on tan carpets and seatbelts. They also didn’t show the myriad of paint chips all over the car. It is absolutely peppered with black spots (the primer under the pearl paint). I (and you) really should see a car in person before buying it.

It had a JDM takeout engine put in a year or so earlier which made the following issues a real shock and disappointment:

• Valve cover gaskets and seals were hemorrhaging.

• Five fuel injector lower o-rings shredded. Almost impossible to get the injectors out of the rails. In fact, one injector broke before being freed from the rail. I have the test result sheet from Deatschwerks so I guess the installation must have gone seriously wrong.

• One knock sensor ohmed at 855k, the other was completely open (infinite). The for sale write-up from the first seller said they were new.

• Large under plenum coolant hoses were original (hard as a rock). The for sale write-up said they were replaced.

The following items were not disclosed:

• Power steering return hose leaking

• Steering rack leaking in 2 places. (Service documents indicate this was known for at least 3 years).

• Bottom radiator support/crossmember dented upward about 1.25” in the middle as if the car had been dropped on something sharp. Bottom of radiator core dented upward the same amount as well as the bottom of the fan shroud broken. It’s a miracle the radiator doesn’t leak. (The first NICO owner acknowledged this was a mishap while he owned the car).

• RF & LR window regulators broken or worn out.

• License plate light harness not routed back into trunk and plugged in after bumper cover painted. Collateral damage was water entering trunk from road spray.

• Large drain hose in compartment where the jack should have been (if the car had come with one) was pulled out allowing all water from drain hose to collect in the well.

• Interior was filthy dirty and stained. I had the car cleaned and detailed, but the stains won’t come out of the seatbelts and carpets.

So, here are the lessons:

1. Other people’s standards may not be as high as yours.

2. Pictures can’t take the place of live, in person viewing.

3. People who live with a car’s issues long-term may well forget they exist and then forget to tell you about them.

4. Having a JDM takeout engine doesn’t mean that all the stuff that should be done and is easy to do with the engine out of the car actually gets done – knock sensors, under-plenum hoses & valve cover gaskets especially.

When all is said and done, the 1995 Q45t is nowhere near as good a car as the 1992 Q45 with 315,000 kms it was supposed to replace. My wife is disabled and we live on one income. This whole affair nearly put my wife in the mental hospital. But, sometimes life kicks you in the balls and you just have to get up and fight on.

[Victor]

I agree with you, never buy a car sight unseen. To this I would add some other advice:1. First thing to check for is good title, current registration, no liens, and pink slip.2. Don't trust a Carfax report, it is a starting point, but the only data carfax has is from insurance company accident reports and online smog check submittals. Everything else is supposition. If an accident was never reported carfax doesn't know about it.3. If possible test drive several cars of the year and model you are interested in so you get an idea of how they should drive and sound.4. Beware buying a car from someone who tries to avoid telling you where they live, or posts a picture of a car without license plates on it.5. There is a good video that you might be able to find in your library that shows how to inspect a car and detect repaired accident damage or lack of maintenance.6. Most important, try to buy from an honest seller. An honest person will tell you whats wrong with the car, if any. Try to buy from someone who had enough money to properly maintain the car, cars from people who are always broke probably have a lot of deferred maintenance.

[Q45tech]

Yep! I always wonder about inet cars for sale. Surely NONE ZERO would live up to my mechanical standards. Why it is just easer " to love the one you're with" and keep what you've got.

People somehow don't believe me that every used car [out of oem warranty and many in warranty] need $3,000 MINIMUM after a purchase and I don't care about paint or dirty carpets [now torn/worn seats are offensive to my body]. but not my senses.

I always remember the $11,000 [in 2001 dollars] for needed repairs, we quoted a potential non active buyer who drove a Q in for an inspection. He and his wife thought the car was GREAT and Beautiful............"best car they has ever driven or ridden in".

As to hoses one replacement interval is never enough. I've replaced some ENGINE HOSES 3 THREE TIMES in 318 k or about every 6 years.IT IS NOT THE MILEAGE BUT THE AGE That causes failures in warmish climates.

How many would ride on 6 year old tires?

This year alone I've replaced injectors, starters, hoses, tension rods, and need rotors, brake pads, shocks, a 3rd rear main seal and the 3rd transmission already has 108k.

In 1990 the average new Q buyer made $153,000 per year [of course they checked credit] more than 34% paid cash [wrote a check]. Lexus income was higher by around $7,000 and more paid cash - almost half. After all what was $40,000 a measly $75k today.

Imagine that 95Q would cost $83,000 today.

[GseaQ]

Hi all,

This was in no way meant to be a criticism of any individuals involved so please don't think I'm writing from "sour grapes".

I also don't believe there was any lack of integrity by anyone involved. They have been nice and helpful to us and we appreciate it. It was just a shock to spend the purchase price (or very close to it) to make it drivable and reliable.

We all must remember there are almost always other issues influencing all of our lives that are far more important than cars.

Thanks for your feedback.Glenn
Modified by GseaQ at 2:28 PM 5/7/2008

[qship96]

Guess the communication must have already started

[Q45tech]

I haven't spent $45,000 in repairs and mainteance over the past 18 years for the fun of it. Many times the dealership and T3 thought I was nuts for working on my brakes and tire balance or even buying a new rear subframe or HVAC controller or changing shocks every 4 years [but when they were removed you could feel how soft and flat they were with little or no resistance].

Same with suspension pieces, every single one made a feelable improvement.

Spending $700 for an ecu or $600 for a tcu or springs or sway bars or shock tower brace.

[GseaQ]

I know Dennis. You helped teach me the ways of PM. That's why our '92 is so good. It'll easily go another 300,000 kms. Thanks for the tips over the years.

[WDRacing]

Agreed, quite often parts can be bad, or almost bad long before the driver will notice. I've had bushings completely wear through without me noticing until I had the car on a lift to change the oil. At which point I changed the bushings and was wowed by the difference. Complacency...

As far as buying a car via Internet goes...I don't even like buying used parts on EBay let alone a whole car. Some things really need to be seen up close, cars are definitely one of them.

Which is another great thing about Nico, I can ask a local to check out almost any car for me. That way at least the big things will be pointed out before I invest the money for a one way plane ticket.

WD

[bretfraz]

The challenge facing us all is finding a balance between our emotional expectations and our financial positions. In the end it's not about cars at all. It's really a personal value judgment. What is important to us and what are we willing to pay for it? What price perfection?

I bought my Q45 off e-bay sight unseen. I paid more than most of you would have paid in order to get a great car. When I first saw it on the delivery truck, I noticed things like paint work, dings and dents that weren't disclosed to me at the time of purchase. While the car was in very good condition, it wasn't virginal and it was silly of me to expect that. Still, I was disappointed.

If spending huge amounts of money keeping a car in like-new condition is important to you, that's great. Financially we're all better off getting rid of our cars when repair costs approach the market value, but that doesn't take into account our emotional attachment to our cars, which everyone tries to validate and legitimize at some point.

Buyers always want full disclosure, if only to leverage the seller into offering a lower price. Sellers want to promote the car's strengths while minimizing its weaknesses, if only to get a higher price. That's business for ya. Caveat Emptor or Carpe Diem or whatever Latin phrase you prefer.

[Q45tech]

After spending 18 years learning my Q, at 60 I don't want to spend another 18 years learning another model or brand.I am however cheating on my Q, by paying more attention to the old G20 I4 FWD as that may become a future daily driver when V8 are relagated to weekends and vacations and 2.0 liters [1998 cc] are the legal limits.Luckily as an EE I'm somewhat set for the next generation of electrics and my hobby was nuclear and solar technology.

[qship96]

The 93.5-96 G20 {cosmetic and functional upgraded from earlier 91-93 model} was a fantastic small car with the manual transmission.Handles well, gets over 30mpg on highway,comfortable and extremely well built and reliable{I had one from new till 150,000 miles} still on all original parts except for clutch and waterpump both died around 145,000! Battery,exhaust,a/c, everything else was original. .Only downside to entire car was engine noise not as well muted as Q, especially over 4000 rpms.