charlieo wrote:
Hell, if stopping power is the priority, then it's hard to beat .357 Mag.

Repo, what's your opinion of the Fuller Index?

Meh, I think it's an admirable attempt to calculate potential stopping power but I really don't put much stock into it. I prefer to look at past performance of various rounds and select my load from there. Actually, for me, it's even simpler than that. I would just grab a box of Cor Bon JHPs and carry those, case closed.

The point you make about the .357 is interesting, as it has an actual record over a long period of time as a phenominal stopping round, loaded correctly of course. The correct load is a full house 125 grain JHP. Fanboys can argue .45 ACP all day long, but there is no denying the effectiveness of the .357.

Another suggestion to the OP as far as pistol choice. Be sure to check out the new SIG P250. This is VERY cool:

http://www.sigsauer.com/Produc...d=183

I'm a bigger fan of police reports and documenation from real life encounters and scenarios.

Guns, guns, guns. I have read all the posts. I am 55 and have owned and or shot nearly every gun out there. I study the manufacturers, the calibers and models. Why? Just because I like the hobby. Some of the posts are right on.....others are not. I am also a certified NRA Instructor so I would be more than happy to help you out with buying a make and caliber that would fit you best.

Lets get you started out safely with the right first gun. Just tell me more about your goals as to gun ownership.

Mr1der wrote:I'm a bigger fan of police reports and documenation from real life encounters and scenarios.

Marshall and Sanow did just that. Winner: .357 Mag.

Of course, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.

For example: the .357 Mag would probably be fired by someone with more experience than a .38 Special user, simply because it's a big, hairy round and it's not for nancy-boys.

I don't know about you OP but I just found the next gun I'm buying, SIG P250 .357 sig.

Thanx Repo Man.

I have a friend with one and watching that video kind of decided it for me, I had no idea they were so customizable.

MaxFNPower wrote:I don't know about you OP but I just found the next gun I'm buying, SIG P250 .357 sig.

Thanx Repo Man.

I have a friend with one and watching that video kind of decided it for me, I had no idea they were so customizable.

+1

Interchangeable barrels? I can practice with cheapo 9mm and shoot something heavier? Sweet.

Anything by Sig is good stuff. Never tried their .357mag vs. S&W's .357 but I am going to make a point to do. Sounds like an interesting piece. Off to Sig's site I go.

Happy shooting.

I love sigs, good choice.

Now get yourself a 40 or a 9mm barrel (the advantage to the 40 s&w barrel is that you can still use the 357 sig mags. I know that my sig mags say on them "357sig/40s&w".

I *think* you might still be able to use them with 9mm but I'm not positive about that.

myother45isalesbaer wrote:Anything by Sig is good stuff. Never tried their .357mag vs. S&W's .357 but I am going to make a point to do.

SIG does not make a .357 Magnum. Their round is the .357 SIG. I assume that's what you meant.

Prozac wrote:Interchangeable barrels? I can practice with cheapo 9mm and shoot something heavier? Sweet.

The P250 goes WAY beyond interchangeable barrels. We've been able to do that with Glocks for a long time now. The SIG has a firing mechanism that can be dropped into three different size frames, or "chassis" as it were. There are two different triggers to choose from. There are four different calibers that you can switch between, including the "almighty" .45 ACP. The Glocks can't change frame, grip size or include the .45.

All of this with ONE serial number. This is important for people that live in repressive areas that make purchasing/owning a gun difficult, like those in Canada or Kalifornia.

As to practicing with 9mm and carrying something heavier; You should do enough shooting with the round you intend to carry to be proficient with it and understand the dynamics of weapon control with a heavier recoiling round. An example would be to practice with standard pressure 9mm and switch to carrying a +P .45 ACP. HUGE power difference and corresponding recoil. It could potentially be a real nasty surprise to go from one to the other without having shot a few prior to the event. This would be especially bad if the shot you fired was the life saver.

Yes. I do know the difference between the SIG 357 and the S&W 357. Just never had the opportunity to fire a 357 Sig.

I agree......the SIG is a great gun. The flexibility of the P250 is awesome.

I am going to go to my local dealer and have a look see at one myself. Four different calibers in one gun is incredible.

There is a lot to be said for both rounds. I like the Baretta as a gun better but not the round. The 45 is made to knock you down, but I don't like guns made for it. Oh well.......need to make choices based on what you want and need to do.

Repo Man wrote:


As to practicing with 9mm and carrying something heavier; You should do enough shooting with the round you intend to carry to be proficient with it and understand the dynamics of weapon control with a heavier recoiling round. An example would be to practice with standard pressure 9mm and switch to carrying a +P .45 ACP. HUGE power difference and corresponding recoil. It could potentially be a real nasty surprise to go from one to the other without having shot a few prior to the event. This would be especially bad if the shot you fired was the life saver.

Sound advice, and I do know this (but you had no way of knowing.) I should have been more clear for the benefit of those who haven't been shooting for over twenty years. Thanks for the clarification for the noobs to the wonderful world of shooting sports!

I could not agree with you more. I am a perfect example. I can shoot my 9mm very well. The 45 makes me flinch a little. I am out of practice. My 44Mag hurts and the 50MAG I just bought hurts even more. I mean hurts as my hand and rattles my bones.

For my carry gun I use the 9MM or the 357Mag. I seem to be able to handle either pretty well.

You are giving good advise. Glad to know another gun owner who knows what they are talking about.

myother45isalesbaer wrote:My 44Mag hurts and the 50MAG I just bought hurts even more. I mean hurts as my hand and rattles my bones.

I don't know, my 454 gives me the tingles and I get a big smile on my face when I shoot it. Large frame revolvers are fun to shoot I guess.

myother45isalesbaer wrote:I could not agree with you more. I am a perfect example. I can shoot my 9mm very well. The 45 makes me flinch a little. I am out of practice. My 44Mag hurts and the 50MAG I just bought hurts even more. I mean hurts as my hand and rattles my bones.

For my carry gun I use the 9MM or the 357Mag. I seem to be able to handle either pretty well.

You are giving good advise. Glad to know another gun owner who knows what they are talking about.

The cost of getting old. I definately prefer my softer shooting full size guns these days.

There you go. You know what I mean. I don't recommend them for beginners, but once you put a few rounds through one of those cannons......you just know that there is not much in North American that can take a hit and keep on coming. Some of the pee-wee pistols, as much as I like them just don't have that knock down power.

Me too. Beers help the pain after shooting the hand held cannons.

Cold_Zero wrote:
Which is important that your state back the Castle Doctrine and you vote for politicians that recognize your right to defend your property or person. What I can't understand is this. Just because your state backs the Castle Doctrine does not mean, if someone is not up to defending their home, that a citizen can not leave, escape or withdraw from their home and go call the police. But by taking away a home owners right to defend him/herself you have effectively just given them one choice, be a victim and rely on the state. Matt, I have much sympathy for people that live in states where they are not allowed to defend themselves and if they do, are harrassed by the state.

With the castle doctrine in AZ you have to cover you arse still. In my CCW class we were told to dial 911 on your phone and leave it off the hook, yell "get out of my house!" 3 times, then yell "drop the weapon!", then you let him have the business end of your firestick. Legally you are covered at that point. You just can't shoot the bg as he is fleeing with your stuff

I kept my air compressor at my parents' house and someone used one of those garage door frequency hackers and stole my stuff. I called the sheriff's dept to make a report and they were too busy to show up and do it. The guy could have still been in the house for all we knew at the time. I called back to see when I could expect an officer and they told me they were too busy. I told her, "with all due respect, the next time I call to report a break in...send a coroner out because the thief is going to get shot." and hung up.

"an unarmed citizen is a subject""those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not"

JimmyMethod wrote:
Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?

My XD .45 has a 13+1 capacity. I get the best of both worlds...stopping power and capacity. First 6 rounds are black talons.

98s14inaz wrote:
With the castle doctrine in AZ you have to cover you arse still. In my CCW class we were told to dial 911 on your phone and leave it off the hook, yell "get out of my house!" 3 times, then yell "drop the weapon!", then you let him have the business end of your firestick. Legally you are covered at that point. You just can't shoot the bg as he is fleeing with your stuff

You forgot the point at which you need to invite the intruder in for tea, ask him/her how they are feeling at the point of the robbery to make aboslutely sure they mean to go through with the robbery. /sarcasm. Indiana's use of deadly force is much more simpler, thank God.

Quote » I told her, "with all due respect, the next time I call to report a break in...send a coroner out because the thief is going to get shot." and hung up.[/quote]Quote of the year.

The old Black Talons. They can be considered as "just can't wait to shoot" and criminal. But I have some too. CT law is the same. You must be in fear of your life or family's to fire.

That is very subjective. If they are in my house going in or out......its good enough for me.

98s14inaz wrote:
First 6 rounds are black talons.

I try to avoid buying ammo with marketing names that will get me in trouble with a pacifist jury. Black talons sound so deadly...federal personal defense sounds better...

I know it's all marketing but the jury may not be able to tell the difference and a good laywer may not be enough to set things right in my life should I ever be in this type of trouble.

Just something to think about...

That is true with the Black talons. What I do is load one and then the rest are regular HP's.

I forget the new name of the Black Talons, but they make a round that is exactly the same for all intents and purposes as the Black Talon except that its just a plain ole brass with copper colored jacketed hollowpoint bullet.

Same thing, no more "evil" name or color.

bobotech wrote:I forget the new name of the Black Talons, but they make a round that is exactly the same for all intents and purposes as the Black Talon except that its just a plain ole brass with copper colored jacketed hollowpoint bullet.

Same thing, no more "evil" name or color.

Winchester Ranger T

myother45isalesbaer wrote:That is true with the Black talons. What I do is load one and then the rest are regular HP's.

Guys, loading with ANY Black Talons is a horribly bad idea. They were discontinued long ago because they were so demonized in court and in the press. To use them in a defense scenario now would be to invite disaster in court and public opinion after the fact. If there was a real, tangible benefit to using them I could almost see taking the risk, but the fact is that there is no benefit. Any number of other loads have proven themselves to be just as good or better with regard to terminal ballistics.

If I haven't been clear on the subject prior to this post, let me put it another way. There are no magic bullets. There is no "manstopping" caliber. There is no gun that shoots itself, or makes up for bad judgement/tactics/decisions.

Pistol cartriges are weak. All of them. They are not good choices for winning a gunfight, although they are the most convenient and that's why we carry them. A battle rifle or properly loaded shotgun is a far better choice for stopping a bad guy from doing his evil deeds but they are not always an option for one reason or another.

Occasionally, when the subject comes up, someone will ask me why I carry a pistol. I tell them it's because I can't carry a Gatling Cannon.

Repo Man wrote:If I haven't been clear on the subject prior to this post, let me put it another way. There are no magic bullets. There is no "manstopping" caliber. There is no gun that shoots itself, or makes up for bad judgement/tactics/decisions.

Pretty much. Most people have this idea that shooting someone will knock them clean over and put them on the ground with a .45, lol. Thanks Hollywood.

In reality the goal of shooting someone with a pistol or even a rifle is to cause damage to their vital systems. With a pistol, you try to hit main mass to either contact the lungs, heart, or organs to cause them to bleed out or suffer trauma. That's why caliber is not that big of an issue, you will find that everything from 9mm to .44 Magnum will get the job done. The style of bullet you use is like choosing what color to wear to work that day, for the most part JHP is JHP.

Repo Man wrote:Pistol cartriges are weak. All of them. They are not good choices for winning a gunfight, although they are the most convenient and that's why we carry them. A battle rifle or properly loaded shotgun is a far better choice for stopping a bad guy from doing his evil deeds but they are not always an option for one reason or another.

Semi-autos all have weak rounds. The revolvers I would argue can contain more than capable rounds. The energy of a .454 Casull, .44 Magnum, and some of the others are up around the same energy as .223 and other rifle calibers. That's going to send a message at 5 yards, hell the noise alone is enough to make most people flinch.

Pistol that WILL stop anyone in one shot:

I vote .50 BMG as this 'man stopping' caliber you speak of.

I am for whatever caliber works in whatever handgun on man or beast. As long as you can make nice clean kills. But, I must say, overall any shotgun, used within its range of effectiveness, is a pretty scary thing. Especially a pump or semi-auto.

Long, long time again, in a land called FL, I whacked a 15 ft. alligator with one at about 20 feet. Game over. I hope I am over the statue of limitions on a class 3 federal offense. If not, please tell Fish and Game I live somewhere outside the US.

Gatling gun??? Why can't you carry one? Too big or too heavy? You probably need at least a trailer to move it. I love it. I am going to borrow your line as to why you don't carry one if you don't mind.

Now there's some serious firepower. My neighbor flys an A10 and has one on his plane with depleted uranium rounds. That bad boy will do tanks and entire neighborhoods. Thats fire power!!!!.