Let me know how that Steyr is. It's peaked my interest.JimmyMethod wrote:I was thinking along the lines of a Steyr M1-A in .40, an XD in .40, and maybe a Kimber Custom, just because I've never shot a 1911.
Well the reason why i was looking into just maiming is simply because I might get prosecuted if i kill the invader. I have no problem with shooting and accidentally killing him/her. Shoot now to protect mine and my parents lives, ask questions later. I'd honestly rather just beat the **** out of'em, but what if they got a pistol? Its a high possibility especially with the way people from oakland are moving out hereRepo Man wrote:Number one, if you cannot come to terms with the potential for killing someone in self defense, you have NO BUSINESS keeping a lethal weapon for said purpose. Firearms are inherently lethal and if you use one for self defense in a non-lethal scenario, or if you act as if lethal force is not justified, you will be crucified in court, guaranteed. Your intent, and let me be perfectly clear about this, is to STOP, not to kill. Killing an armed home invader may be a side effect of stopping his felonious actions, but that is not the intent of self defense.
To the OP, you need to do some reading before you pick up a pistol for self defense. The first book I would start with is by Massad Ayoob and is titled "In The Gravest Extreme". http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-...r=1-1
I'm a noob here, but I've got to say this is the best advice in the thread. +1 read up on Mas Ayoob. Visit The High Road or Firingline forums.Repo Man wrote:I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.
The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.
You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?
Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.
Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".
http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB
PIQUED!!charlieo wrote:
Let me know how that Steyr is. It's peaked my interest.
Yes to the Kimber, no to the XD.Mr1der wrote:jimmy better have rented the XD and Kimber.
The Beretta had a higher magazine capacity and used more commonly available and cheaper 9mm. There are rumors about that suggest a Sig was supposed to win the contract, but dirty deals were in play.JimmyMethod wrote:
so we shot a 92FS (God, I hope they replace the M9 sooner rather than later. I hated that thing) and a P99.
Why the hell did they get rid of the 1911 for the Beretta? Sad day.
Repo is known for that from time to time...Prozac wrote:
I'm a noob here, but I've got to say this is the best advice in the thread
The US Army just signed a new contract for 25,403 more M9 pistols from Baretta USA Corp. So much to Jimmy's chagrin, looks like they will have it at least until around 2010.Prozac wrote:
The Beretta had a higher magazine capacity and used more commonly available and cheaper 9mm. There are rumors about that suggest a Sig was supposed to win the contract, but dirty deals were in play.
.45 LC can be loaded pretty damn hot, its called a 454 Casull. No love I tell you... no love.Mr1der wrote:magnum by no means is a measure of power.
it was just a selling gimmick...good name for the round.
10mm shoots as hard as .357 Magnum...as does the .357 Sig.
a .45 Long Colt can be loaded pretty damn hot too.
Sig material right there I tell ya. Thank you for that clarification, bobo. It's a pet peeve of mine too. I swear, if I went through and corrected all the poor spelling on here, it's all I would do.bobotech wrote:I was piqued by the thought of Jesda's melons. Jesda's melons reached their peak development at the age of 13.
Good call. I bought a Norinco 1911 a couple years back. Absolutely love the gun. The finish is nicer than my Dad's Colt, although I have seem some pretty poorly finished Norincos as well... Maybe I just got lucky.Desmoquattro wrote:
I'm probably picking up a Norinco 1911 Government, they are about 330$ Canadian and get good reviews for accuracy and reliability. Fit and finish isn't great but for that price I can get it custom 'smithed. Too bad you guys can't buy Chinese guns, they are cheap cheap cheap and not that bad. They make SIG, Tokarev and CZ replicas as well as .45 and 9x19 1911s. Most are under 300$. I'd like a Beretta 92fs but they are hard to come by up here unless you find an ex-law enforcement one.
^ Yep.homeslicej2 wrote: (oh, and the criminals who are going to get them anyway).
Nato round. Nato had adopted the 9mm as their main pistol round. The 45 was never adopted by Nato. We also wanted to help out Italy back then so we awarded the contract for the 92 to Beretta. The 92 also had more capacity and was a single/double action pistol compared to the single action only 1911.JimmyMethod wrote:
Why the hell did they get rid of the 1911 for the Beretta? Sad day. JCP needs to resolve itself soon.The P99 is a really cool gun, I might add. It just feels... 'right' in your hand.
Yeah, I've seen frangibles tested as well. I don't care to load my personal weapon with them in case I need to engage the BG through a door, window, wall, etc.Repo Man wrote:Interesting experiment, but hardly scientific. What brand JHP? Bullet weight? Jacket thickness plays a role here as well in that a thinner jacketed bullet will more likely expand than one with a thicker jacket. How many rounds did he fire? Etc, etc. Like he said, the .22 LR penetrated quite a bit, so it's safe to say that indeed any round can overpentrate. However, doing the same test with frangibles will yield a completely different result.
Very good advice. It really is unfortunate that you may face criminal and civil proceedings after a self-defense shooting. If I understand correctly in some jurisdictions you can even get in trouble if the shooting was justified because you defended yourself instead of running away. If you shoot someone in self defense there should be a prompt short police investigation and then you should get your gun back ASAP. Unfortunately we seem to live in a culture that all too often seems to have too much sympathy for criminals and thus feels the need to try to criminalize the right to self-defense.Repo Man wrote:I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.
The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.
You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?
Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.
Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".
http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB
Which is important that your state back the Castle Doctrine and you vote for politicians that recognize your right to defend your property or person. What I can't understand is this. Just because your state backs the Castle Doctrine does not mean, if someone is not up to defending their home, that a citizen can not leave, escape or withdraw from their home and go call the police. But by taking away a home owners right to defend him/herself you have effectively just given them one choice, be a victim and rely on the state. Matt, I have much sympathy for people that live in states where they are not allowed to defend themselves and if they do, are harrassed by the state.MattB wrote:
Very good advice. It really is unfortunate that you may face criminal and civil proceedings after a self-defense shooting. If I understand correctly in some jurisdictions you can even get in trouble if the shooting was justified because you defended yourself instead of running away. If you shoot someone in self defense there should be a prompt short police investigation and then you should get your gun back ASAP. Unfortunately we seem to live in a culture that all too often seems to have too much sympathy for criminals and thus feels the need to try to criminalize the right to self-defense.
Don't forget the .32 S&W and the .32 H&R Magnum, which went on to become the .327 Federal.And even though it is not considered a Magnum round, the .45 Colt Long and the 454 Casull.charlieo wrote:
The round is named "Magnum"
.357 Magnum and .44 Magnum are perhaps the most famous. The .357 is made from a lengthed .38 Special case (still common), the .44 made from a lengthened .44 Special case (pretty much extinct)
Basically, they've got very long shells that hold a lot of powder.
I fall into the category of residents of a state where the right to self defense is weakened. In Massachusetts we have something called a "must flee" law which if I understand correctly means that unless one can prove that they did all to run away instead of shoot they can get in legal trouble. I don't know in practice how this harshly this would be enforced, but I wouldn't want to find out. If someone pulls a knife or gun on me it is potentially more dangerous to me to run than shoot but apparently politicians in Massachusetts seem to be doing everything in their power to benefit criminals (must flee law, 10 round magazine restriction, and permits are issued at the discretion of police chiefs).Cold_Zero wrote:
Which is important that your state back the Castle Doctrine and you vote for politicians that recognize your right to defend your property or person. What I can't understand is this. Just because your state backs the Castle Doctrine does not mean, if someone is not up to defending their home, that a citizen can not leave, escape or withdraw from their home and go call the police. But by taking away a home owners right to defend him/herself you have effectively just given them one choice, be a victim and rely on the state. Matt, I have much sympathy for people that live in states where they are not allowed to defend themselves and if they do, are harrassed by the state.
Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?bobotech wrote:The 92 also had more capacity and was a single/double action pistol compared to the single action only 1911.
cant a agree more..... then again I learned to shoot several different weapons including bows.Repo Man wrote:I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.
The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.
You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?
Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.
Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".
http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB
Oh my. Jimmy, I thought you were smarter than that. There are MANY documented cases of failure to stop with .45 hardball. And stop trying to apply logic to government and politics.JimmyMethod wrote:
Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?
Hell, if stopping power is the priority, then it's hard to beat .357 Mag.JimmyMethod wrote:
Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?