Rent a boomer.

Well I was reading this and thought of this:http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... d=30618664

It says its a shotgun but I donno......you have to watch the end though its the best part

JimmyMethod wrote:I was thinking along the lines of a Steyr M1-A in .40, an XD in .40, and maybe a Kimber Custom, just because I've never shot a 1911.

Let me know how that Steyr is. It's peaked my interest.

Repo Man wrote:Number one, if you cannot come to terms with the potential for killing someone in self defense, you have NO BUSINESS keeping a lethal weapon for said purpose. Firearms are inherently lethal and if you use one for self defense in a non-lethal scenario, or if you act as if lethal force is not justified, you will be crucified in court, guaranteed. Your intent, and let me be perfectly clear about this, is to STOP, not to kill. Killing an armed home invader may be a side effect of stopping his felonious actions, but that is not the intent of self defense.

To the OP, you need to do some reading before you pick up a pistol for self defense. The first book I would start with is by Massad Ayoob and is titled "In The Gravest Extreme". http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-...r=1-1

Well the reason why i was looking into just maiming is simply because I might get prosecuted if i kill the invader. I have no problem with shooting and accidentally killing him/her. Shoot now to protect mine and my parents lives, ask questions later. I'd honestly rather just beat the **** out of'em, but what if they got a pistol? Its a high possibility especially with the way people from oakland are moving out here

Damn I cant wait until my parents move out of here and retire

As for that book, im going to look into it

jimmy better have rented the XD and Kimber.

I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.

The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.

You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?

Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.

Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB

Repo Man wrote:I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.

The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.

You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?

Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.

Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB

I'm a noob here, but I've got to say this is the best advice in the thread. +1 read up on Mas Ayoob. Visit The High Road or Firingline forums.

As to personal recommendations I'd get a Beretta 92FS, 9mm. You can set that up with a crimson trace lazergrip, night sights, and magazines are available up to 18 rounds that will flush mount and load them with whatever local PD is using.

Generally speaking, I find compact handguns are not fun to shoot at the range. Too much muzzle flip and snappy recoil. Compact guns are meant to conceal and use in an emergency. Since your gun is meant for the range and home defense I'd consider getting a full framed gun. You'll find it is softer shooting at the range and more easily controlable if ever made to be fired under stress.

Also, I'm not a fan of glocks. They're great guns. They just don't have the a safety that isn't part of the trigger. The issue becomes one where anybody (child, moron, burgular who's never fired a gun before) can shoot it with out any thought. A frame or slide mounted saefty could work as a technicality to prevent the weapon from being fired. There are many cases documented where cops were saved from being shot with their own guns beacuse the safety catch was on. The delay bought them enough time to escape to safety or deploy a back-up weapon.

Listen to Repo Man I live in AR, You live in Calie. Look at your laws and see what your police force uses.

I must apologize it was late and I was hurrying the post last night. let me explain: "Mom's Cocktail" is named that for a reason, it's moms load out. My mom has kept a gun in her room for self defense since I was a kid, but I'm worried she might mistake me for a burglar/rapist. In short those first two rounds are for me. I'd rather be maimed than have my own mother kill me.

Oh and there not handloads I buy them where I get all my ammo. There pest/small shot shells chambered in .38 special.

charlieo wrote:
Let me know how that Steyr is. It's peaked my interest.

PIQUED!!

Its not peaked, its PIQUED!

Something piques your interest. When you are 17, your sex drive has peaked.

I was piqued by the thought of Jesda's melons. Jesda's melons reached their peak development at the age of 13.

Pet peeve of mine.

Mr1der wrote:jimmy better have rented the XD and Kimber.

Yes to the Kimber, no to the XD.

God... 1911s... wow.

Fantastic. I'm in love. I did a Kimber and a Wilson CQB (liked the Wilson a bit more, maybe just because I shot a little better with it). I went with my 3 of my friends, 2 of which have never shot pistols before, so I let them pick the other 2 we got, so we shot a 92FS (God, I hope they replace the M9 sooner rather than later. I hated that thing) and a P99.

Why the hell did they get rid of the 1911 for the Beretta? Sad day. JCP needs to resolve itself soon.The P99 is a really cool gun, I might add. It just feels... 'right' in your hand.

Thanks everyone for your input. I was going to go the country and shoot off some rounds on a farm on sunday, but since im working tonight and have to be at a wedding on 12 the next day, im actually going to be pulling a 24 hour no sleep thing, so i cancelled, im going to see if he has next weekend off. i know one of his guns is an xd, but i dont know caliber, but he has some 9's and .22's

JimmyMethod wrote:
so we shot a 92FS (God, I hope they replace the M9 sooner rather than later. I hated that thing) and a P99.

Why the hell did they get rid of the 1911 for the Beretta? Sad day.

The Beretta had a higher magazine capacity and used more commonly available and cheaper 9mm. There are rumors about that suggest a Sig was supposed to win the contract, but dirty deals were in play.

This bring up an off topic point...our military can only shoot ball ammo...why? Because some bean counter figured out that if you injure one soldier it will in effect take three off the field... one wounded and two to carry him. Our ammo choice was agreed on in the geneva convention...our rules of war.

Back on topic, the Beretta is a fantastic weapon. Yes, it's huge. But it is utterly reliable. I've seen them run over 10k rounds without a single mis-feed or jam. For an autoloader developed in the 80's that's pretty impressive. I'll admit the the 1911 is a great design as well, and many who shoot will only trust their life with 45acp. But really, when you think about it, 9mm with a proper expanding hp is plenty effective...gangbangers keep dying from it and smaller rounds.

Prozac wrote:
I'm a noob here, but I've got to say this is the best advice in the thread

Repo is known for that from time to time...

Prozac wrote:
The Beretta had a higher magazine capacity and used more commonly available and cheaper 9mm. There are rumors about that suggest a Sig was supposed to win the contract, but dirty deals were in play.

The US Army just signed a new contract for 25,403 more M9 pistols from Baretta USA Corp. So much to Jimmy's chagrin, looks like they will have it at least until around 2010.

Mr1der wrote:magnum by no means is a measure of power.

it was just a selling gimmick...good name for the round.

10mm shoots as hard as .357 Magnum...as does the .357 Sig.

a .45 Long Colt can be loaded pretty damn hot too.

.45 LC can be loaded pretty damn hot, its called a 454 Casull. No love I tell you... no love.

bobotech wrote:I was piqued by the thought of Jesda's melons. Jesda's melons reached their peak development at the age of 13.

Sig material right there I tell ya. Thank you for that clarification, bobo. It's a pet peeve of mine too. I swear, if I went through and corrected all the poor spelling on here, it's all I would do.

On the Beretta note, I had a 92 for a long time and regret selling it. Awesome pistol.

My bad, folks, my bad.

92/M9's are garbage. Then again, I had a really ****ty experience with one at CATM, so I'm quite biased.

What happened?

Let me set the stage, first:

Ellsworth AFB. Sleeting, 40 some odd degrees out. The CATM range there isn't outdoor, but it's open enough to make me one unhappy camper.

This gun had to have been bottom of the barrel. DA trigger was all over the place, even the SA trigger was harsh. Do to my hypothermic state, the damn thing felt like it weighed a ton. Didn't fit to well in my had, either.

On the upside, I killed a moth when it got trapped in the slide during recoil. "BLAM BLAM *why the hell is my sight picture grey and fuzzy?*". The MSgt thought it was a riot.

It'll take some serious convincing to get me to use a 92 again.

under those circumstances it is understandable why you dis-like the M9. Buddies in Iraq are pissed at it too because the issued mags dislike the sand, and sand is EVERYWHERE. They LOVE it when people send them MecGar mags from home.

If you lived closer I'd take you to a range and let you shoot mine and you'd probably cut it a bit of slack again. I think it's one of the best guns I've ever shot/owned. I'm bored with it, but I refuse to part with it because most people who've had one regret selling it.

Don't know if you keep up with their product line but the ninety-two model is a nice update of it with a more manageable grip. The new PX4 Storm is decent, it has adjustable backstraps to custom ft your hand. If your community allows for carbines the mags from the PX4 also fit the CX4 Storm, which is a wicked little carbine. I'm afraid to buy one myself because of my proximity to Cook co. and they have banned them already...I'd hate to spend money and then have to give it away because the laws changed.

Desmoquattro wrote:
I'm probably picking up a Norinco 1911 Government, they are about 330$ Canadian and get good reviews for accuracy and reliability. Fit and finish isn't great but for that price I can get it custom 'smithed. Too bad you guys can't buy Chinese guns, they are cheap cheap cheap and not that bad. They make SIG, Tokarev and CZ replicas as well as .45 and 9x19 1911s. Most are under 300$. I'd like a Beretta 92fs but they are hard to come by up here unless you find an ex-law enforcement one.

Good call. I bought a Norinco 1911 a couple years back. Absolutely love the gun. The finish is nicer than my Dad's Colt, although I have seem some pretty poorly finished Norincos as well... Maybe I just got lucky.

homeslicej2 wrote: (oh, and the criminals who are going to get them anyway).

^ Yep.

JimmyMethod wrote:
Why the hell did they get rid of the 1911 for the Beretta? Sad day. JCP needs to resolve itself soon.The P99 is a really cool gun, I might add. It just feels... 'right' in your hand.

Nato round. Nato had adopted the 9mm as their main pistol round. The 45 was never adopted by Nato. We also wanted to help out Italy back then so we awarded the contract for the 92 to Beretta. The 92 also had more capacity and was a single/double action pistol compared to the single action only 1911.

Repo Man wrote:Interesting experiment, but hardly scientific. What brand JHP? Bullet weight? Jacket thickness plays a role here as well in that a thinner jacketed bullet will more likely expand than one with a thicker jacket. How many rounds did he fire? Etc, etc. Like he said, the .22 LR penetrated quite a bit, so it's safe to say that indeed any round can overpentrate. However, doing the same test with frangibles will yield a completely different result.

Yeah, I've seen frangibles tested as well. I don't care to load my personal weapon with them in case I need to engage the BG through a door, window, wall, etc.

The test isn't scientific, but it puts it into perspective what the rounds are capable of doing. Some may take it further, others may not do the same, but it's better to know that it's capable of that rather than assuming the sheetrock will stop the round.

Repo Man wrote:I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.

The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.

You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?

Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.

Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB

Very good advice. It really is unfortunate that you may face criminal and civil proceedings after a self-defense shooting. If I understand correctly in some jurisdictions you can even get in trouble if the shooting was justified because you defended yourself instead of running away. If you shoot someone in self defense there should be a prompt short police investigation and then you should get your gun back ASAP. Unfortunately we seem to live in a culture that all too often seems to have too much sympathy for criminals and thus feels the need to try to criminalize the right to self-defense.

MattB wrote:
Very good advice. It really is unfortunate that you may face criminal and civil proceedings after a self-defense shooting. If I understand correctly in some jurisdictions you can even get in trouble if the shooting was justified because you defended yourself instead of running away. If you shoot someone in self defense there should be a prompt short police investigation and then you should get your gun back ASAP. Unfortunately we seem to live in a culture that all too often seems to have too much sympathy for criminals and thus feels the need to try to criminalize the right to self-defense.

Which is important that your state back the Castle Doctrine and you vote for politicians that recognize your right to defend your property or person. What I can't understand is this. Just because your state backs the Castle Doctrine does not mean, if someone is not up to defending their home, that a citizen can not leave, escape or withdraw from their home and go call the police. But by taking away a home owners right to defend him/herself you have effectively just given them one choice, be a victim and rely on the state. Matt, I have much sympathy for people that live in states where they are not allowed to defend themselves and if they do, are harrassed by the state.

charlieo wrote:
The round is named "Magnum"

.357 Magnum and .44 Magnum are perhaps the most famous. The .357 is made from a lengthed .38 Special case (still common), the .44 made from a lengthened .44 Special case (pretty much extinct)

Basically, they've got very long shells that hold a lot of powder.

Don't forget the .32 S&W and the .32 H&R Magnum, which went on to become the .327 Federal.And even though it is not considered a Magnum round, the .45 Colt Long and the 454 Casull.

Cold_Zero wrote:
Which is important that your state back the Castle Doctrine and you vote for politicians that recognize your right to defend your property or person. What I can't understand is this. Just because your state backs the Castle Doctrine does not mean, if someone is not up to defending their home, that a citizen can not leave, escape or withdraw from their home and go call the police. But by taking away a home owners right to defend him/herself you have effectively just given them one choice, be a victim and rely on the state. Matt, I have much sympathy for people that live in states where they are not allowed to defend themselves and if they do, are harrassed by the state.

I fall into the category of residents of a state where the right to self defense is weakened. In Massachusetts we have something called a "must flee" law which if I understand correctly means that unless one can prove that they did all to run away instead of shoot they can get in legal trouble. I don't know in practice how this harshly this would be enforced, but I wouldn't want to find out. If someone pulls a knife or gun on me it is potentially more dangerous to me to run than shoot but apparently politicians in Massachusetts seem to be doing everything in their power to benefit criminals (must flee law, 10 round magazine restriction, and permits are issued at the discretion of police chiefs).

bobotech wrote:The 92 also had more capacity and was a single/double action pistol compared to the single action only 1911.

Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?

Repo Man wrote:I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Please accept that you may face criminal and/or civil charges whether you kill the goblin or not. This is risk you take if you choose to defend yourself whether it was justified or not. I personally choose to accept this risk because the risk of not defending myself is to become a sheep and submit to whatever end the bad guy chooses for me. I can't live like that. I'm not wired that way and it sounds like you're not either. With that said, the only thing worse to me than having to kill someone in self defense is to stand by and let a loved one be murdered or raped.

The point I'm trying to make about attempting to maim someone with a pistol is this; If you use an inherently lethal weapon in a scenario where lethal force is not justified, you will go to jail. If it was justified, but you said that you were intentionally trying to shoot the goon in the leg, for example, then the prosecutor will make it look like you were NOT justified. Moreover, you very well may miss if you try to shoot something other than center of mass. Hell, it can be hard enough under stress to hit center of mass anyway, much less anything else.

You are responsible for every bullet that leaves that pistol. Why would you want to take the risk (more so than necessary) of missing your target and hitting a loved one? Or going through 12 sheets of wallboard and hitting a stranger?

Do yourself a favor, don't get too hung up on which pistol/caliber is better than the other. There are many good brands out there, so pick the best quality you can reasonably afford and the best fitting pistol in that lineup, whatever it may be. The only thing that really matters is that the pistol goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet goes where it needs to go. Everything else is secondary, or even tertiary.

Massad Ayoob has written volumes on the subject of self defense and is far more versed in such things than I am. I beg you to please read some of the books he has written and not just take the advice of us yayhoos on a car forum. One of the books that has helped me as well is "The Truth About Self Protection". It goes way beyond just "which pistol should I buy?".

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?...=AMAB

cant a agree more..... then again I learned to shoot several different weapons including bows.

it is all about what feels right and your going to be comfortable with when something bad comes apon you. I personally perfer the 9mm, but we do have bows and guns stored all over the house.

my mom is a little skidish with anything with size, but she hasnt learned enough to feel comfortable with anything really.

JimmyMethod wrote:
Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?

Oh my. Jimmy, I thought you were smarter than that. There are MANY documented cases of failure to stop with .45 hardball. And stop trying to apply logic to government and politics.

JimmyMethod wrote:
Yeah, but you have to use 2-3 shots in the CoM to drop a target with 9x19 compared to 1 with .45, especially since you're using FMJ. How does an extra 8 rounds a magazine make up for that?

Hell, if stopping power is the priority, then it's hard to beat .357 Mag.

Repo, what's your opinion of the Fuller Index?