Guns

Post by **cflanagan** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:33 pm

Ok well the 9mm in general is a reliably handgun. but to elaborate police forces have adopted the handgun not cause it looks pretty simply it's reliable. whats the authentication term GP grade pistol mabey dont know

Post by **JimmyMethod** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:11 pm

cflanagan wrote:Ok well the 9mm in general is a reliably handgun.

Cartridge <> Handgun

That statement made no sense.

There are reliable 9mm guns and there are unreliable 9mm guns.

Nismo_Freak wrote:James is an idiot for suggesting .40 to a new shooter. That round is a bit hot and would just lead to flinching issues. It's harder to control than .45, 9mm, etc.

9mm is a great round to start with, but I wouldn't say .40 is horrible. It's not 10mm Auto. Either way JHP 9mm's seems like it should be enough in most situations. Also, if you're looking to practice, you'll benefit from the cheaper ammunition.

Are you looking for a gun for a CCW? Home defense? Target shooting?

For CCW, the Glock 38 and 39 have peaked my interest.

Post by **Mr1der** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:18 am

.44 Special is far from extinct...I think it's a usuable round in Cowboy action shooting and still easy to find loads for.

I've got a few speedloaders full of 200gr Winchester Silvertips for the Model 29.

damnit Alan...don't be a parabellum fanboy.

depending on the size of the shooter, the .40 is a powderpuff.

recoil is marginally harder than a 9mm depending on the gun's design.

to say it's harder to control than a .45 makes me wonder how many .40S&W's you've shot.

ergonomics of the pistol really make a difference in control too...to say I'm an idiot for suggesting a .40 to a new shooter makes me wonder what you're smoking...if you're wanting a decent defense caliber and have limited to NO experience...9mm or .40 cal are what you want.

if he's just wanting something to get new to the idea of shooting with...a good .22lr is where it's at.

Charlieo, how much did you give for the FNP? That and teh Steyr M1-A...think that's the model..I might've got the letters mxed up...are both suppose to be excellent buys for the money.

if you're into customizing a pistol....the Glock is the 240SX to the M1911's Civic in the pistol world...the Springfield XD's aftermarket is coming along nicely too.

another pistol to look into would be the Taurus 24/7 IF you're wanting a good defense/target pistol at a great price.

Post by **bobotech** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:13 am

I don't understand why recoil is such a big deal.

I have shot everything from a tiny 22 pistol to a heavy over loaded hot 44mag/45long colt (and yes, 45LC in a Ruger Blackhawk can be loaded to 44mag style loads) and pistol recoil has never bothered me in the least.

However shooting a semi auto shotgun with 3 inch slugs as fast as you can DOES hurt.

Post by **Mr1der** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:35 am

it doesn't really bother me unless I can't get a good grip on it...or it's a pistol grip 12ga at the hip and my wrist is kinda bent.

Post by **sbird1** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:38 am

My dad just got a S&W Airlight. .38 S. Pretty nice little revolver.

Post by **homeslicej2** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:02 am

bobotech wrote:...However shooting a semi auto shotgun with 3 inch slugs as fast as you can DOES hurt.

Desmoquattro wrote:You think Cali is bad?

I'm going to get my restricted firearms certification here in Canada so I can get a handgun for target shooting. I need to take a course (optional) and then write a test and pay 80$ to the government. If I pass the test I get a 5 year possession and aquisition license for restricted firearms.

Restricted firearms are full sized handguns, revolvers, short barreled rifles, and automatic rifles permanently converted to semi-auto. Max capacity of a handgun is 10 rounds, max capacity for a rifle is 5.

PROHIBITED firearms are small handguns (which includes almost all .22 - .25s, it's because they are easy to conceal), auto weapons, submachine guns whether auto or not. You cannot get these unless you work for the police or military.

It gets better.

Once I get the gun I register it at my place of residence. For the gun to leave my place of residence, under any circumstances, I need to apply for a transport permit. If I make regular trips to the range, I get a 3 year permit to take it to a specific location. This isn't a carry-concel permit, it's a permit to physically move my gun outside the door of my house, and it's supposed to be in a locked case with a locked trigger at all times when moving it.

I'm probably picking up a Norinco 1911 Government, they are about 330$ Canadian and get good reviews for accuracy and reliability. Fit and finish isn't great but for that price I can get it custom 'smithed. Too bad you guys can't buy Chinese guns, they are cheap cheap cheap and not that bad. They make SIG, Tokarev and CZ replicas as well as .45 and 9x19 1911s. Most are under 300$. I'd like a Beretta 92fs but they are hard to come by up here unless you find an ex-law enforcement one.

All this because they don't want their citizens armed. Kind of hard to cast off a repressive government when they are the only ones with guns (oh, and the criminals who are going to get them anyway).

Post by **JimmyMethod** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:07 am

Canadian's government is repressive like Dane Cook is funny.

Post by **homeslicej2** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:20 am

^ (I meant in general or in the future)

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:36 pm

Mr1der wrote:damnit Alan...don't be a parabellum fanboy.

depending on the size of the shooter, the .40 is a powderpuff.

recoil is marginally harder than a 9mm depending on the gun's design.

to say it's harder to control than a .45 makes me wonder how many .40S&W's you've shot.

Shoot 9mm in a compact handgun, then .40 ... it's a noticeable difference in muzzle flip, especially if you don't know how to properly fire the weapon (weaver stance). The 230 gr. .45 operates on a low chamber pressure, so the overall felt recoil is soft. My .357 Sig has much more pronounced kick than my .45 in the same compact frame.

.40 is fine for a full frame gun. It's just not a caliber I like. Much prefer .357 Sig

In fact, you run a heavier spring for a .40 caliber 1911 than you would a .45, due to the higher chamber pressures produced by the .40 ... stiffer spring and higher pressure = more kick.

Post by **krimsonviper** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:59 pm

Alot of info in this here thread. I havent ruled out the 9mm, but alot of people seem to put it down simply because it doesnt have alot of stopping power, and because of that, im not really looking into it. Also, I read that 9mm's are penetrating alot more, so im afraid that if i shoot, its going to end up outside the house which i seriously dont want. This gun is mainly going to be used as house defense...but c'mon now its a gun, you're SUPPOSE to have fun with it, so of course im going to take it out and shoot things with it. Im also looking into the springfield xd, but i still have to make time to actually go to a gun shop and handle these guns myself...continue with the thread please I need to learn

Post by **bobotech** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:29 pm

On a note of this thread, I just found that my coworker (really cool old guy who has more money than most people, not rich but well off) has a collection of Garands and M1s and other american military weapons.

He mentioned 17 of one style Garand in his collection and I kinda mildly peed my pants.

He is going to let me buy one of his that he will fix up for me and make monthly payments.

He also said that he has a crapload of reloading stuff that he would le me have for cheap since he doesn't shoot anymore. Hes a collector, not a shooter.

Post by **Mr1der** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:31 pm

you need to find an old pot helmet for Jesda to wear while he shoots it.

Post by **Repo Man** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:36 pm

Absolushun wrote:Alot of info in this here thread. I havent ruled out the 9mm, but alot of people seem to put it down simply because it doesnt have alot of stopping power, and because of that, im not really looking into it. Also, I read that 9mm's are penetrating alot more, so im afraid that if i shoot, its going to end up outside the house which i seriously dont want. This gun is mainly going to be used as house defense...but c'mon now its a gun, you're SUPPOSE to have fun with it, so of course im going to take it out and shoot things with it. Im also looking into the springfield xd, but i still have to make time to actually go to a gun shop and handle these guns myself...continue with the thread please I need to learn

What you're hearing about the 9mm is bunk. Pick a proper load (as with ANY caliber) and you're going to be good. Yes, overpenetration is likely if you're using ball ammo, but no one uses ball for anything but practice. I carried a 9mm Beretta with me for years into places where no rational person would ever choose to go and I never felt insecure with it. Why? Because I knew that I could hit whatever I wanted on account of the amount of practice I could afford to do and a proper JHP +P+ round in the chamber/magazine.

There's more, but right now it's time for a beer run.

Post by **Mr1der** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:39 pm

hell...with ball. overpenetration can be possible with most loads.

nothing wrong with a 9mm...my next pistol will likely be an XD40 SC though.

Post by **cns_spike** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:48 pm

Remember , OP because you're in California the law will be more harsh if you actually kill someone in self defense.

It would be a good idea to see what the LEOs in your area carry as far as round type/size. As there have been many cases where someone killed a robber in self defense and was prosecuted because of their round choice being "overkill".

There was a man accused of this because he shot a robber with a .40 Federal Protection Hydroshock JHP in his home. His attorney blew so hardcore that the man was actually prosecuted sucessfully. What was even more distrubing was that the State Troopers acually used that round. I believe the charge was something to the tune of excessive lethal force. Don't remember the charge exactly.

Thank God I live in Texas.

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:09 pm

Absolushun wrote:Alot of info in this here thread. I havent ruled out the 9mm, but alot of people seem to put it down simply because it doesnt have alot of stopping power, and because of that, im not really looking into it. Also, I read that 9mm's are penetrating alot more, so im afraid that if i shoot, its going to end up outside the house which i seriously dont want. This gun is mainly going to be used as house defense...but c'mon now its a gun, you're SUPPOSE to have fun with it, so of course im going to take it out and shoot things with it. Im also looking into the springfield xd, but i still have to make time to actually go to a gun shop and handle these guns myself...continue with the thread please I need to learn

9mm, .40, and .45 will go through about 8 sheets of sheetrock. Figure two sheets per wall, and yeah, it's not hard for a bullet to go through a house.

.357 Sig, 7.62x29 Makarov, FN, and other high velocity rounds are capable of penetrating much more, even body armor.

I would suggest a 9mm to anyone for self defense. It's a really good all around package of ability and capacity.

Post by **Asmar** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:28 pm

Absolushun wrote:Is there a good website that breaks down info like which guns are reliable, with great handling, and ammo info? New to the concept, and I've noticed that there are some enthusiasts in here. Looking to buy one. Particularly a hand gun

Any paricular reason your looking for one?

Post by **krimsonviper** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:31 pm

cns_spike wrote:Remember , OP because you're in California the law will be more harsh if you actually kill someone in self defense.

It would be a good idea to see what the LEOs in your area carry as far as round type/size. As there have been many cases where someone killed a robber in self defense and was prosecuted because of their round choice being "overkill".

There was a man accused of this because he shot a robber with a .40 Federal Protection Hydroshock JHP in his home. His attorney blew so hardcore that the man was actually prosecuted sucessfully. What was even more distrubing was that the State Troopers acually used that round. I believe the charge was something to the tune of excessive lethal force. Don't remember the charge exactly.

Thank God I live in Texas.

thats one reason why i want the laser scope so i can at least try to get him in the knee cap or arm and not in the trunk of the body, but im thinking that if i get charged with the laser for killing the thief that i'll be worse off. i dunno, guns are iffy here in cali. its why i sleep with a knife under my bed for now and i have bats lying around the house, but what if he is long range you know? At least you guys let me know about the 9mm and i will keep that in mind.

I might be gay and get rubber bullets if they're available, but im still going to go to the range. Anyone have personal opinions on rubber bullets? Are they available?

Post by **bobotech** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:01 pm

You don't ever have a gun or shoot a gun at a bad guy with the intent of maiming or hurting.

You have a gun to defend your life if you feel you are in peril and the bad guy is coming after you. You shoot for the torso and no other place. The torso is the biggest mass of target and has the best chance of hitting. You are aiming to kill, not to injure or maim. People on drugs can do amazing things when they should be dead from a gunshot wound. You don't want to be on the receiving end of that drugged out bad guy.

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:51 pm

bobotech wrote:You don't ever have a gun or shoot a gun at a bad guy with the intent of maiming or hurting.

You have a gun to defend your life if you feel you are in peril and the bad guy is coming after you. You shoot for the torso and no other place. The torso is the biggest mass of target and has the best chance of hitting. You are aiming to kill, not to injure or maim. People on drugs can do amazing things when they should be dead from a gunshot wound. You don't want to be on the receiving end of that drugged out bad guy.

Yep, at the point the gun comes out your sole intention should be to destroy whatever you point it at. There has to be no doubt in your mind.

If you pull that trigger you should aim centermass, hit centermass, and continue to fire until the target is no longer a threat.

Post by **KLYPH** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:01 pm

Ar15.com

Post by **MaxFNPower** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:43 pm

For my two cents. I would say Sig's .357 Sig, it's a nice hand gun and easy to use(for me at least). I don't own one but have shot my buddies a couple times when I break into my first full sized semi-auto it will most probably be a .357 Sig.

If you do go revolver, I have a little thing i like to call "Mom's Cocktail" for use in a .357, 2 parts bird shot, 2 parts .38 special, and 2 parts .357 Magnum. Its the load out I give mom for home defense, the instructions are shoot until they fall then run like hell. If they peruse, repeat process. Another good load is 3 .38 specials and 3 .357 magnums.

On a side note .357 Magnums are loud. I could not imagine shooting one indoors with no hearing protection.

Post by **Repo Man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:47 am

Nismo_Freak wrote:
9mm, .40, and .45 will go through about 8 sheets of sheetrock. Figure two sheets per wall, and yeah, it's not hard for a bullet to go through a house.

Alan, where in the hell do you get this? Have you really been that oblivious to the fact that different loads will penetrate different mediums regardless of caliber? If potential overpenetration is an issue, then load your pistol with a frangible round, such as a Glaser or Mag Safe. These are not new inventions and they are incredibly effective.

Absolushun wrote:
thats one reason why i want the laser scope so i can at least try to get him in the knee cap or arm and not in the trunk of the body, but im thinking that if i get charged with the laser for killing the thief that i'll be worse off.

I might be gay and get rubber bullets if they're available, but im still going to go to the range. Anyone have personal opinions on rubber bullets? Are they available?

Number one, if you cannot come to terms with the potential for killing someone in self defense, you have NO BUSINESS keeping a lethal weapon for said purpose. Firearms are inherently lethal and if you use one for self defense in a non-lethal scenario, or if you act as if lethal force is not justified, you will be crucified in court, guaranteed. Your intent, and let me be perfectly clear about this, is to STOP, not to kill. Killing an armed home invader may be a side effect of stopping his felonious actions, but that is not the intent of self defense.

MaxFNPower wrote:If you do go revolver, I have a little thing i like to call "Mom's Cocktail" for use in a .357, 2 parts bird shot, 2 parts .38 special, and 2 parts .357 Magnum. Its the load out I give mom for home defense, the instructions are shoot until they fall then run like hell. If they peruse, repeat process. Another good load is 3 .38 specials and 3 .357 magnums.

This "mom's cocktail" sounds like an incredibly BAD idea. A prosecutor will tear you apart in court if you use handloads for self defense. Spike had it correct when he said to choose the same loading as local law enforcement.

To the OP, you need to do some reading before you pick up a pistol for self defense. The first book I would start with is by Massad Ayoob and is titled "In The Gravest Extreme". http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-...r=1-1

Post by **Nismo_Freak** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:54 am

Repo Man wrote:Alan, where in the hell do you get this? Have you really been that oblivious to the fact that different loads will penetrate different mediums regardless of caliber? If potential overpenetration is an issue, then load your pistol with a frangible round, such as a Glaser or Mag Safe. These are not new inventions and they are incredibly effective.

The Box-O-Truth tests. Of course that was using JHPs / FMJ ammo.

I'm not oblivious, I'm just stating what the pistol is capable of with standard ammo. I don't personally have a problem with it. I load JHP's and am aware of whats behind the target, otherwise I wouldn't be shooting with a .357 Sig which is a proven penetrator (hehehehhe).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Notice he states that JHPs have zero expansion. Pretty interesting tidbit.

Post by **JimmyMethod** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:20 am

I'm going to the range in a few hours, any suggestions on fun guns to rent?

Post by **Repo Man** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:35 am

Nismo_Freak wrote:
The Box-O-Truth tests. Of course that was using JHPs / FMJ ammo.

I'm not oblivious, I'm just stating what the pistol is capable of with standard ammo. I don't personally have a problem with it. I load JHP's and am aware of whats behind the target, otherwise I wouldn't be shooting with a .357 Sig which is a proven penetrator (hehehehhe).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Notice he states that JHPs have zero expansion. Pretty interesting tidbit.

Interesting experiment, but hardly scientific. What brand JHP? Bullet weight? Jacket thickness plays a role here as well in that a thinner jacketed bullet will more likely expand than one with a thicker jacket. How many rounds did he fire? Etc, etc. Like he said, the .22 LR penetrated quite a bit, so it's safe to say that indeed any round can overpentrate. However, doing the same test with frangibles will yield a completely different result.

JimmyMethod wrote:I'm going to the range in a few hours, any suggestions on fun guns to rent?

Big ones that hold a lot of bullets.

Post by **bobotech** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:46 am

JimmyMethod wrote:I'm going to the range in a few hours, any suggestions on fun guns to rent?

Desert Eagle in 50AE.

Smith and Wesson 460XVR or a 500XVR using 460S&W or 500mag ammo respectively.

Glock 17 with the 31 round magazine (NOT a clip dammit).

Post by **JimmyMethod** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:14 am

bobotech wrote:Glock 17 with the 31 round magazine.

They don't have the 31 round mag, I do enjoy shooting the 17, though. Someday... I want to fire an 18. And when it happens, the skys will part and all will be good.

bobotech wrote:Desert Eagle in 50AE.

I'd feel way too cheesy.

I was thinking along the lines of a Steyr M1-A in .40, an XD in .40, and maybe a Kimber Custom, just because I've never shot a 1911.

Post by **bobotech** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:00 am

JimmyMethod wrote:
I'd feel way too cheesy.

I was thinking along the lines of a Steyr M1-A in .40, an XD in .40, and maybe a Kimber Custom, just because I've never shot a 1911.

It is *cheesey* but thats part of its appeal. It is nothing more than a image gun however shooting it with the 50AE is rather fun. Such a large round with so much powder makes it a "blast" to shoot.

The other guns you mention are of course, very cool however they don't have the uniqueness of say the 50AE round. To me shooting a 40 in a Steryr/USP/Sig isn't much different except for the overall feel of the gun, its still the same basic everyday round. Same with the 45acp, its still the same basic round whether you shoot it from a hipoint 45 or a kimber 45.

When you say "fun to rent", I'm thinking entertainment value, not research value such as renting a gun to buy.

Hence my suggestions of large caliber boomers or a 31 round glock.0

Guns

Re: Guns (Nismo_Freak)

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