Should students be armed?

CNN wrote:CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- "Would you rather just sit there and cower underneath a desk when someone executes you or would you rather have a chance to defend your life? That's what it really boils down to."

Michael Flitcraft, a 23-year-old sophomore at the University of Cincinnati, has become a leading advocate for college students to carry weapons on campus. He's an organizer for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a grass-roots organization that was formed after last year's Virginia Tech massacre that left 32 college students and professors dead.

The group boasts more than 25,000 members.

Standing on the Cincinnati campus, Flitcraft calmly explained he is licensed to carry a weapon in Ohio. He wants to carry his gun on campus to defend himself from potential killers, but by law he can't.

"To me it makes no sense that I can defend myself legally over there," he said, pointing to the city streets. "But I am a felon if I step on the grass over here."

I understand the need of students to be protected. I also understand the rules against carrying guns on campus. Will allowing guns on campus lead to more campus violence? Will a deranged shooter more easily carry weapons into the classroom? Will armed students result in shootouts and innocent victims? My view is that this is a poor idea, poor anyway unless it is coupled with extensive training and testing for those who carry a firearm, and then I don't think it is a good idea.

Any suggestions, comments?

Link to story.http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/....html

hahahah this is at my school and i had no idea. you know i was thinking about this and it could be a bad or good thing. like the first week i was at this school i saw a kid get a gun pulled on him and i was like ****.... but then i thought man i should get one so no one pulls **** on me. Then i realized how stupid this would be. it would be like the worlds current nuclear weapon situation. all it would take is one idiot to pull a gun then everyone pulls one and if one of them decides to shoot it would be rediculous. kids and guns just are not a good combo anyway you stack it. hell even most adults with guns is not a good mix. there are just to many people that dont have a "normal" or right thought process before making a decision that could change lives.

I was going to bring up this topic yesterday as it has been prevalent in the news lately but I was bogged down at the office and didn't have time. Thanks for addressing this important matter.

Please know that I was raised around guns and was taught from the very beginning that handling a weapon was a big responsibility. To this day I take that responsibility seriously and continue to educate myself and others on the principles of gun ownership.

I believe that universities should consider limited and restricted concealed weapons permission to students. First and foremost, the universities must address the matter of education. Please note that ALL and I emphasize ALL gun accidents are caused by improper handling of a firearm. The only safe firearm is one that is handled properly. This is all an unfortunate result of poor education.

If a University is going to allow concealed weapons on their campus then they need to make clear and concise regulations regarding the permission to carry a weapon. If Universities provide students (at the student's expense) a minimum of 2 semesters of practical pistol training along with on range practice sessions and continued education then it would be acceptable to have students carry weapons. A student who is given the permission to carry a weapon on campus must maintain an acceptable grade point average deemed by the university. The student must also adhere to all university regulations and submit to random drug and psychological screening along with thorough background checks. Although I am not fond of strict regulation on gun ownership, I believe that in this case it should be mandated. I also do not believe that the financial burden of this should fall strictly on the university. In my opinion, it would strongly benefit gun manufacturers to sponsor this type of program. Not only would they be getting their name out there, but they would show that their ultimate goal is responsible gun ownership.

I do believe that if a criminal is aware that it's potential victims are carrying self defense mechanisms then they are less likely to attack their prey. No responsible gun owner wants to shoot another human being. I sincerely hope that I can carry my weapon for the rest of my adult life and NEVER have to un-holster my gun against another human being. However, if the situation merits, I have a duty to myself and others and am prepared to protect myself and those around me with lethal force.

In summary, I am in favor of this but only if the ultimate goal is education. Without proper gun education, this program would be doomed to fail. I've witnessed first hand the damage and tragedy that a gun in the wrong hands can inflict on a family. I wish this for NO ONE and hope that we can prevent senseless murders once and for all.

Be safe out there!

Dave

^ tht education will never happen. Think about it your asking a university to give up some of its money to train kids how to shoot. in our mostly liberal university enviornment this would never fly. I agree with what you say,but i guess i am pecimistic when i say there is just to many stupid kids to allow them to have a weapon.

brizanden wrote:^ tht education will never happen. Think about it your asking a university to give up some of its money to train kids how to shoot. in our mostly liberal university enviornment this would never fly. I agree with what you say,but i guess i am pecimistic when i say there is just to many stupid kids to allow them to have a weapon.

I do agree with you that the logistics of funding such a program could cause some difficulty which is why I suggested that the financial responsibility of such a program would fall primarily on the student attending such classes as well as support from corporate sponsors such as Beretta and Glock. I'm certain that some interest groups such as the NRA and other individual grants would assist in funding these programs.

In response to your statement that universities won't fund programs to teach kids how to shoot... I believe this is the un-educated mindset that gives gun owners a bad name. If you've ever taken a practical pistol class you'd know that it is 10% how to shoot a gun and 90% how to avoid shooting someone. The actual act of firing a weapon is pretty simple, but the conditioning and training on self restraint and discipline is the key focus.

In response to your belief that there are too many stupid kids out there to allow them to have a weapon... That's the point i'm making... end the stupidity with education! We give these so called "stupid" kids cars everyday... and they are much more likely to kill someone with their car than they are with a gun! Would you not agree that we can avoid teen driving deaths by teaching kids how to avoid accidents? Insurance companies such as State Farm have sponsored teen driving workshops to help minimize accidents AND IT'S WORKED! why wouldn't this work with Responsible gun workshops? Avoiding the issue by saying that stupid kids shouldn't have guns is not a solution at all, it's a moronic left wing approach at gun control! Stupid people are always going to get guns and cars and knives and bombs... the solution isn't to get rid of the weapons... it's to minimize the stupidity! If we truly want to provide solutions, then we must begin with the foundation of education. PERIOD!

rn79870 wrote:Will a deranged shooter more easily carry weapons into the classroom?

I was listening to some radio show this past weekend, since it was the anniversery of Virgina Tech. They mentioned this idea, of allowing students to carry firearms. And I think this very issue was brought up. I turned to my wife and said, "With the current laws that we have in place, what is to keep him (VT Shooter) from doing it in the first place." The Viriginia Tech shooting showed that the process didn't work. People and officials saw mental illness in the kid and nothing was really done to address the issue. With the current Federal Gun Laws on the books, people with mental illnesses are not suppose to be able to purchase fire arms and most State Laws have laws against them owning them. The whole Viriginia Tech shooting transcends just gun laws. It was a major break down in the entire system.

brizanden wrote:kids and guns just are not a good combo anyway you stack it.

Do realize what ever the University of Cincy decides to do, they still must comply with Ohio State Gun Laws and Federal Gun Laws. Most of the time you have to be 18 years old to receive a CCW/CCL, so when you say 'kids' you are not talking about 16 year old kids in highschool. Also, these would people that already have the right to carry in your state, just not a college campus.

ArizonaG35,I would just make the following correct. It would be Ohio's perogative pass a law in order to allow College Students to carry on campus. Though I am not sure how they would get past the Federal Safe Schools Act...I would have to look it up, I know Bill Clinton signed an Act that made it a crime to carry on school grounds. After the State of Ohio passed the law then it would be up to the University's rules to allow students to carry on campus. Now if Ohio said 'yes', and a University said 'no,' then pretty much the courts would rule on the side of the State. I dont think the Universities really have the capability nor the mandate to determine if Students can carry on campus.

A buddy of mine mentioned yesterday and I could not verify it last night that Florida passed a law that allowed employees to carry at their work. I need to look that up tonight. We have a Servicing Center down in Panama City FL and this intrigued us. Our company's policy is not to allow any weapon on the premesis. I believe they are breaking Indiana State Code for including an employee's car.

The ironic thing is that this is one of the points brought out in the SCOTUS arguments re: the DC gun ban. It was argued that handguns, by their concealable nature, were more dangerous than machine guns because they could easily be smuggled into the campus by those intent on harm. On it's face, this appears true. However, all you have to do is look at the Columbine incident to see that this isn't the case.

If we allow them in college, what about high schools, junior high schools? What about allowing teachers to be armed? Take a good look at this and what it says about our country.

My view, allow no weapons on campus. Of course, the nuts will always find a weapon and so will the felons. Maybe gun control doesn't work after all. What else is there?

ArizonaG35 wrote:
In response to your belief that there are too many stupid kids out there to allow them to have a weapon... That's the point i'm making... end the stupidity with education! We give these so called "stupid" kids cars everyday... and they are much more likely to kill someone with their car than they are with a gun! Would you not agree that we can avoid teen driving deaths by teaching kids how to avoid accidents?

yes they let kids drive as well and look at what some of them do. Now i know they are gonna have to drive one way or another and i believe alot of the times kids hurt themselves or others becuase they are uneducated on how to drive. Yet they have to go through classes and the such if they are under 18 and i still see lack of responsibility in people everyday. the simple nature of humans is to be selfish so often they do not consider the reprocusions of driving like an idiot. I do agree with you like i said before that education could help and would def be a good thing, but i still forsee problems with allowing handguns into a school enviornment.

and to the crazy angry dude that got mad cause i said college people are kids. I am sorry, but if your not a sr we still pretty much do childish things. Now obviously every person is a bit dif and im not sayin everyone is a idiot kid that can't handle responsibility. im just saying i am around it everyday as i am sure many of you are or have been, and i just see and hear the stupidest things all the time. Actually it just doesnt even come down to kids its just society in general i think people need to be more aware of the world then they are and change the way they act. i by no means hate america, but other countries do have a vallid point when they stereotype americans as idiots. My main point is my generation just has issues lol.

Most High Schoolers and all Junior High Schoolers would be excluded by every States' Gun Laws from carrying fire arms period. Now the teacher issue is interesting.

brizanden wrote:and to the crazy angry dude that got mad cause i said college people are kids. I am sorry,

From the 'crazy angry dude' that is a moderator.... your apologize is accepted. I was not mad, crazy or angry at you. To be honest, I was pretty lucid when I typed my response. [/Shrug Shoulders] But I would appreciate that you and everyone else steer away from name calling.

^i didnt apologize, but calling you a crazy angry guy didnt seem like an offensive statement anyway.

Meh... If you were trying to flatter me, it obviously didnt work...bud

i aint your bud, guy

My name is bud... Calm down [/conversation]

lol i am calm it was from south park guess u dont watch

OK, I missed the reference. I am a Family Guy and Futurama fan.

i watch all they all have their moments /endthreadjack

brizanden wrote:^i didnt apologize, but calling you a crazy angry guy didnt seem like an offensive statement anyway.

Whenever you use the word "you", you run the risk of making the statement personal. Just as this statement is personal to you. We have a good forum here where the expressing of ideas is the important things. You may not agree with all, or any of the opinions expressed here, or for that matter what a person position on an issue. Discuss the position, not the person. You've stepped over the line here by making the argument personal. Try harder okay?

ok i think were fine now. and it was not as if i was raging and using ****'s and wht not. i thought it was obvious that i wasnt being disrespectful. as calling someone an angry crazy guy is like calling someone a poop face. it was simply a little jeering aka a joke, but im sorry it bothered the mod community and i apologize for that.

An interesting protest by college students.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352006,00.html

John R. Lott Jr. wrote:There is a problem that people just are unwilling to recognize.

Just like attacks last year at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Neb., or Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City or the recent attack at the Tinley Park Mall in Illinois or all the public schools attacks, all these cases had one thing in common: They took place in “gun free zones,” where private citizens were not allowed to carry their guns with them.

Quote »At some point you would think that something is going on here, that these murderers aren’t just picking their targets at random. Yet, when one thinks about it, this pattern isn’t really too surprising.

Most people understand that guns deter criminals. The problem is that instead of gun-free zones making it safe for potential victims, they make it safe for criminals.

Criminals are less likely to run into those who might be able to stop them. Everyone wants to keep guns away from criminals, but the problem is who is more likely to obey the law.[/quote]

In Arizona, our law states that you cannot carry a firearm into any establishment that serves alchohol by the drink (Bars) and any establishment that has a posted sign at it's entrance stating "no weapons allowed"... I don't carry in bars or restaurants, but often times I don't see the "no weapons allowed" sign... They're not always clearly posted... Oooops! My bad! Since my weapon is concealed, no one is the wiser... what they don't know won't hurt them. I carry a slim Walther P99 tight on my hip so with a shirt untucked, you'd NEVER be able to see it.

If I were ever in a place (Like a mall) and some disturbed individual decided to shoot the place up and I stop him by shooting him, I highly doubt the prosecutor would press charges against me for carrying a firearm in a prohibited place. Even so, I'd GLADLY take the misdemeanor charge if I knew that my "illegal" actions saved mine or someone elses life.

Please know that I am a licensed and certified concealed weapons permit holder and I do not condone illegal possesion of a firearm and would never recommend anyone partake in wreckless or improper behavior. As a gun owner though, I would not be able to live with myself if I knew that I could have potentially stopped a murderous rampage and did nothing about it.

Guys, I could not have said ANY of that better myself. I'm very happy that someone besides myself and my close friends understands that an armed society is a polite and SAFE society.

Those opposed can bring any argument they want, but ultimately it just doesn't stand up to logic.

Bad bad bad idea. All it would take is 2 drunken students to start firing on each other and before you know it everyone else who is drunk is pulling out their gun. Terrible idea. I would not trust a lot of people on campus here to own a gun, drunk or sober. For as smart people are here, they sure don't act like it. Then you add football season to the mix and you'll have people killing rival fans. Think of all the possibilities. Race could even get into the mix. The lines at the bars, everyone would have to get patted down which would just be a pain in the ***. Won't happen.

However, Michigan Tech, being in an area where hunting is big, allows students to bring guns to campus but they must keep them in a locked storage room in which only certain people have the key.

Anyone who knows me knows that I side with Repo, ArizonaG35, and Cold_Zero. An armed intelligent society is the best defense against the depraved and lawless hordes. I will add, though, that I think possessing/carrying a weapon while under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol should be illegal. That part shouldn't matter where you are.

brizanden wrote:i aint your bud, guy

Well I'm not your guy, friend.

smockers83 wrote:Bad bad bad idea. All it would take is 2 drunken students to start firing on each other and before you know it everyone else who is drunk is pulling out their gun. Terrible idea.

That wouldn't happen in theory b/c not everyone would have them, only those who are able to be licensed by their state. I think this would be a small percentage as most (if not all?) out-of-state students would likely be excluded & there are a lot of people who wouldn't think it worth the troulbe to fulfill the legal carry requirements.

smockers83 wrote:students to bring guns to campus but they must keep them in a locked storage room in which only certain people have the key.

We had this at my undergrad with no problems

IMO Americans have a right to guns. I wrote my senior thesis in college about the Constitutionality of the 2nd Amendment and what its best interpretation is. From my perspective, we have a complete right to own guns... but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to limits. Free speech is the same way -- just b/c you have a right to free speech doesn't mean you can falsely yell fire in a crowded theater or play your voice over a loudspeaker at 3a.m. in downtown --- there are limits. I'm not sure where I'd draw the line here. Personally, I wouldn't (and didn't) go to a college/school where I'd be worried about my safety.

fayceoff wrote:Anyone who knows me knows that I side with Repo, ArizonaG35, and Cold_Zero. An armed intelligent society is the best defense against the depraved and lawless hordes. I will add, though, that I think possessing/carrying a weapon while under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol should be illegal. That part shouldn't matter where you are.

It scares me to think that someone responsible enough to get a permit to carry a gun would be irresponsible enough to do drugs. Any conviction for drugs should be an automatic bar to gun ownership. I'm not sure about that but isn't that the case?

hsckris wrote:Well I'm not your guy, friend.

.

i aint ur friend, buddy

Quote »Bad bad bad idea. All it would take is 2 drunken students to start firing on each other and before you know it everyone else who is drunk is pulling out their gun. Terrible idea. I would not trust a lot of people on campus here to own a gun, drunk or sober. For as smart people are here, they sure don't act like it. Then you add football season to the mix and you'll have people killing rival fans. Think of all the possibilities. Race could even get into the mix. The lines at the bars, everyone would have to get patted down which would just be a pain in the ***. Won't happen.However, Michigan Tech, being in an area where hunting is big, allows students to bring guns to campus but they must keep them in a locked storage room in which only certain people have the key.[/quote]this is wht i think i just dont trust most the "adults" around me

brizanden wrote: i aint ur friend, buddy

I aint your buddy, Pal! I think this could go on all day... pretty funny!

hsckris wrote:That wouldn't happen in theory b/c not everyone would have them, only those who are able to be licensed by their state. I think this would be a small percentage as most (if not all?) out-of-state students would likely be excluded & there are a lot of people who wouldn't think it worth the troulbe to fulfill the legal carry requirements.

Kris, very good point. Also, most states will revoke your permit or not issue you a permit if you are convicted of a Felony. Which last I checked Smockers83, this isnt the Wild Wild West and you can't go shooting places up for the hell of it. Most states have Deadly Force guidelines or laws.

Most states will issues Conceal Carry Licesnes to non residents. But you do have to watch, some states will not recepricate with an out of state CCL if the holder is not a resident of that state.

smockers83 wrote:Bad bad bad idea. All it would take is 2 drunken students to start firing on each other and before you know it everyone else who is drunk is pulling out their gun. Terrible idea. I would not trust a lot of people on campus here to own a gun, drunk or sober. For as smart people are here, they sure don't act like it. Then you add football season to the mix and you'll have people killing rival fans. Think of all the possibilities. Race could even get into the mix. The lines at the bars, everyone would have to get patted down which would just be a pain in the ***. Won't happen.

Boy, you could use that same arguement on driving a car and not issuing a drivers license. I almost got in my subdivision by a woman texting on her cellphone. I guess that should teach me not to stop and let another neighbor pull out of their drive way. I would wager to say that more people in this country drive under the influence than they carry under the influence.