Gun control in the USA. States and federal laws and what they mean to you.

[Cold_Zero]

A Mak is my Makarov.. e.g. 1967 Bulgarian Makarov 9x18. And, there wasn't really any hostility. I just think that it should be clarified that while not EVERYBODY has the best intentions when getting firearms, the majority of the people who do, actually tend to get them because they either feel a necessity or they are genuinely interested enough to learn enough to not be stupid with them.

Agreed and good that there is not hostility. I must have read our prior post wrong. My apologies.

[Cold_Zero]

Ill be honest if anyone wants my gun they will eventually get it given enough time, no gun lock or trigger guard is gonna stop them, even safes can be broken into. and the trigger locks most commonly forced by california and others can be defeated with a pair of pliers or a decent set of wire cutters/bolt cutters.

Good point. Just to clarifiy, I was approaching Bob's comments about trigger locks and being unloaded from the stand point of safely keeping my hand gun away from my 3 year old daughter. I have already told my wife if she will not learn how to safely and properly handle and use a firearm, she is not allowed to touch them. She agrees.

[Cold_Zero]

While i understand you fears partly, the only thing i can tell you is that the reason VT happened was because VT didnt allow several of its students with CWP to carry on campus, the people involved in that shooting said themselves and sued VT in court to try and overturn the campus rule because they could have saved many lives when the shooting started.

I would like to also point out that the University, the shooters friends and family and mental health professionals in Blacksburg may share in the blame. Federal Law and almost every States' Law prohibit people with Mental Health problems from buying and possessing firearms. Had these people not worried so much about the shooters privacy and documented their concerns with his mental condition, maybe the sale of firearms to the shooter could have been prevented and possibly the shooting prevented. A point you will never hear in the news media.

[rn79870]

Bob, the State of Indiana mandates that drivers have auto insurance. So that is the reason why I buy insurance. But your rational for buying insurance is a distinction with out a difference. "I buy insurance for my car not because I am planning on having an accident... I buy it because I realize there is a potential that I may have an accident." What's the difference?

Seriously? I'm not planning on driving my car into anything. But I realize that operating a mv is a serious thing, and that, if I'm careless or inattentive, an accident may happen. Therefore, I protect the general public by being in a position to financially compensate them for their damages. I also lock my car and set the brake when I'm out of it, and that really isn't any different than locking up a gun when you're not using it is it?

I have life insurance, if I am heaven forbid gunned down by a criminal or killed in an auto accident, my family is well taken care of by my policy. I was not insinuating that your personal well being is not important, I am trying to gauge how much of a problem unproficient firearms owners are! Other than anecdotal and two examples, it doesn't appear to be that much of a problem. But then again, this is the same tactic of the Anti Gun Lobby. Advocate more laws against law abiding citizens in order to solve a perceived problem or no major problem at all. I would much rather have my legislature working not to pass harassing laws against lawful gun owners, but to free up money to enforce the laws that we do have, put more cops on the street, build more jails and pass truth in sentencing laws.

Let me go out on a limb here. I would say that every gun owner who had a gun stolen wishes that he had locked up the gun or stored it in a more secure manner. I'll guess that each stolen gun came loaded with a full magazine too. This is a guess and I'm not claiming it as a fact, just a strong assumption. Every one of those stolen guns is now in the hand of an element who certainly doesn't care about my rights or those of my family.

To that end, is it really too much to insist that gun owners to store their weapons safely?

[Marenta]

The only safety I know of is removing the firing pin, so that it actually still looks like it might work. But, that's just to be callous. And, if you ever forgot that you did remove it and you were in a bind.. well, you're fcsked!

[rn79870]

Yes Justin, most people call me Bob.

I'm glad you're here and presenting a professional opinion on firearms. You earn your living with them so obviously you have a deep respect for the damage they can cause in the wrong hands.

How do you feel about legislation requiring firearms be stored securely, or locked when not in use?

I'm not accusing anyone here of being careless or unworthy of gun ownership. I'm just interested in how much they are willing to give in a give and take situation where the rights on each side are worthy of discussion.

[Cold_Zero]

And yet other people are not held the same standard when they fail to lock their house or cars and items are stolen that are use to perpetrate crimes.

You will never hear people advocating criminal misconduct for an owner of a car that was not 'properly secured' and the car was stolen and used as a weapon to run down a minivan full of kids. No, the focus of the criminal proceedings is on the criminal who stole the car and perpetrated the crime.

And don't pull that crap (like others on here have) about how firearms are solely designed to kill and that my example is totally different. I am speaking about the criminal activity of a law abiding citizen as opposed to a criminal, it doesnt matter what a the intended purpose of the stolen item is.

[Jager]

the guns in my parents house and my grandparents are locked up or the few wallhangers are older muskets etc that are muzzle loaders and are not kept loaded.

all loaded guns are kept away from the kids, either in a dafe or a drawer safe etc. If a child finds a gun they are told (i remember hearing this as a kid as well) that we are to find one of the parents or grandparents, babysitter etc, tell them what we found and under no circumstances to ever touch the gun. we will NOT be punished for any reason as long as we told them immediately,and did not pick the gun up as a child. it is a proven method of teaching your children to treat firearms correctly and not view them as a toy, or as a hidden thing to play with.

[srellim234]

Marenta,...(because my state rocks and so do the law enforcement) all the time...

I'd like to trade some notes with you on that one. I tried to take a promotion and transfer to Indianapolis. Did you know that in Indiana it is aginst the law for a law enforcement agency to hire anyone over the age of 35, no matter how much experience they have? We ran into such a stubborn police union statewide and such a corrupt state legislator in charge of the committee that they threatened our state representative the morning the bill to correct that was to be introduced. He backed off.

Simply put, we found out that Indiana law enforcement has such a closed, corrupt "good old boys'" network they'll do anything to keep outsiders from coming in. Including keeping families seperated.

We took our case to then Governor O'Bannon. He refused to get involved, although he had the power to use his office to make an exception for her. A few months later, however, he issued a pardon to a convicted drug dealer so he could become a police officer in Gary! I guess my wife's crime of being female and over 35 was just too much for him to forgive. Much worse than being a felon.

Despite news reports, lobbying, meetings and signing on legislators from both sides of the aisle interested in our legislation no one would stand up to the one legislator, the committee chairman on the take. After a year and a half of trying to get the law changed, while I lived in Indiana and my family lived in California, the bottom line was it was against the law for my wife, a 10 year veteran with great reviews, to get a job with Indianapolis P.D. or any other force there.

Please don't tell me that law enforcement in Indiana rocks; I know better.
Modified by srellim234 at 8:00 PM 8/2/2008

[Jager]

the problem with stored securly or "locked" away is that when congressmen/women were handed a fake gun with a trigger lock on it and told there is a guy coming to shoot you, open this lock and defend yourself, 95% of the members of congress couldnt open the lock in 30 seconds. meaning the gun is useless.

on the flip side 10 seconds or less with a pair of pliers or a bolt cutter and the locks that legislators believe are safe are broken and the gun is ready to go. so legally criminals can pop your gun open faster then you can most times with a gun lock...

locked away in a safe place is something I do with my weapons that are not my personal defense arms, be they knives or my gun, the weapon is cleaned stored in a case and put away in the closet. if or when i have children as my father did I will buy a safe for the weapons. however i will have at least 1 gun out and loaded WITHOUT a round in the chamber in a drawer by the bed, if my child finds it the gun is not able to be fired , but if somone is in the house, i simply c*** the gun and its ready to go. it is the same way i carry my PDW (personal defense weapon) a full magazine but no round in the chamber, if i need it , I pull it and c*** the gun to fire. (i use a 1911 so that way of carry is "safer" then the cocked and locked method of having a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked but the safety on.

[Cold_Zero]

Justin,While I agree with you whole heartedly. There is one issue that I can see with the don't touch, tell an adult methodology. Living now in a society that demonizes firearms, a lot of people are now growing up having never held, seen or learned to operate a firearm safely. My concern is, as this trend continues, is it/will it be safe for adults to handle the firearm?

Right now, with my daughter being three the best policy is to keep my firearms locked up in the safe while they are not on my person. Repoman and I will have plenty of time to teach, Caroline how to handle, operate and shot (with small groups) firearms.

[rn79870]

You will never hear people advocating criminal misconduct for an owner of a car that was not 'properly secured' and the car was stolen and used as a weapon to run down a minivan full of kids. No, the focus of the criminal proceedings is on the criminal who stole the car and perpetrated the crime.

But guns are inherently dangerous. Even in the hand of an expert a gun is a dangerous thing. Look at the training the police go through before they are allowede to carry one. A car isn't designed to be dangerous, it is only dangerous when misused.

And don't pull that crap (like others on here have) about how firearms are solely designed to kill and that my example is totally different. I am speaking about the criminal activity of a law abiding citizen as opposed to a criminal, it doesnt matter what a the intended purpose of the stolen item is.

I'm not sure I understand the comment about the criminal activity of a law abiding citizen. I don't think that came out the way you meant it to.

[rn79870]

Justin,While I agree with you whole heartedly. There is one issue that I can see with the don't touch, tell an adult methodology. Living now in a society that demonizes firearms, a lot of people are now growing up having never held, seen or learned to operate a firearm safely. My concern is, as this trend continues, is it/will it be safe for adults to handle the firearm?

Yes Bud, this is what I'm saying. Training, and provisions for safe storing of firearms not in use is win/win. I hope this is something the gun owners implement instead of having a government legislate it. Not every gun owner is a responsible gun owner, some need to be told what to do.

[Marenta]

I actually keep mine in a fire proof safe. All my ammo goes into the safe. All the bolts for the rifles as well as the slides for the SKS and AK go in there.. the pistol goes in there.

I keep my rifles disassembled, I never keep them operational. I figure that bringing a rifle up to bear would take too much time. However, firing a rifle rather than a pistol would be much more devastating for a shot. So, I just keep the pistol ready to go, keep all the ammo apart from the guns along with all the mags.

Besides, the only "gun" part of a "gun" is the receiver anyway.

[Cold_Zero]

Please don't tell me that law enforcement in Indiana rocks; I know better.

I was referring more to the fact that I can walk past IMPD (as Indianapolis Police Department is now called) carrying open and they dont harass or even ask for my CCL. While I dont understand the rational of not hiring police officers over the age of 35, unless they are worried about only getting a few years out of you before having to pay out a pension when you retire, I have always had good interaction with our local law enforcement authorities.

We had a man down the road from us, walking around with a shotgun shooting it up in the air. He had been diagnosed with cancer and he was trying die by "suicide by cop." SWAT showed up, talked to the man, shot him with a beanbag to make sure he knew they meant business and then apprehended him with out the use of deadly force. Heck they even were talking to him professionally on the side of the road and tended to his needs. 10 minutes later I rolled through the intersection with my daughter with no issue.

I am sorry you have problems with our State, but IMO thumbs up to the Indianapolis Law Enforcement.

[srellim234]

The initial issue they used was pension. We had that totally covered with our bill. That's when the whole thing turned really ugly because it became obvious they only wanted to keep outsiders out.

The SWAT team? That scenario plays out in every major city in the United States almost daily. That's what they're trained to do. Nothing special there.

[Cold_Zero]

But guns are inherently dangerous. Even in the hand of an expert a gun is a dangerous thing.

Bob,Cars are so inherantly dangerous that we mandate and provide safety equipement for them to keep the user and other people around them safe. We also build infrastructions around them to keep everyone safe. I would wager to say that more people are injured and killed in car accidents than by firearms (accidental discharges or violent crime).

[Marenta]

Yes Bud, this is what I'm saying. Training, and provisions for safe storing of firearms not in use is win/win. I hope this is something the gun owners implement instead of having a government legislate it. Not every gun owner is a responsible gun owner, some need to be told what to do.

I know in a lot of Rural areas, there are a lot of country clubs that actually do firearm safety courses that teach children from ages 6 or 8 and older how do to just about everything with a gun. Including proper storage, upkeep, locking it up, handling, and other provisions. Not just how to fire one.

I think the one that was taught in my area was done by American Legion of VFW.. one of the two.. So, they're all vets. Most of them are hunters, so they know the hunting laws, and usually they require the parents to attend with them so that the parents can speak about how the guns are kept in the house and the children can explain the safety rules about the house and what's right and wrong.

I think they do it in Indiana, too. I know they did it in Illinois.

[Cold_Zero]

Yes Bud, this is what I'm saying. Training, and provisions for safe storing of firearms not in use is win/win. I hope this is something the gun owners implement instead of having a government legislate it. Not every gun owner is a responsible gun owner, some need to be told what to do.

So then Bob, would you advocate on behalf of the NRA to allow the Eddie the Eagle Program in your local/state schools to teach firearm safety?

[rn79870]

...I would wager to say that more people are injured and killed in car accidents than by firearms (accidental discharges or violent crime)...

But for the person injured by the firearm that argument doesn't hold much water. We can't remove automobiles from the American road anymore than we are ever going to remove firearms. But, making the world a safer place by reasonable and responsible operation and storage of both can't be a bad idea.

You already have some regulations, or I assume you do, as I can't take a .22 out for target practice in my city limits. In fact, I have to go pretty from my home to find an area where firing a firearm is legal.

[rn79870]

So then Bob, would you advocate on behalf of the NRA to allow the Eddie the Eagle Program in your local/state schools to teach firearm safety?

I'm not familiar with that program, but if it's what it sounds like, I'd insist they attended it before ever touching a gun. Classroom training at a school is fine, but the actual firearm training (handling) I assume to be at a designated range.

[Cold_Zero]

And my point through out this whole conversation is that good laws that make sense are respected and endorsed by lawful firearms owners. What I resent are the harassing, blanket, redundant and asinine laws that are advocated by the Anti Gun Lobby against lawful firearms owners.

On a side note, our Conservation Club (gun club) invites Law Enforcement Officials to use our range and to participate in shoots (IDPA). We have never had any takers.

[Marenta]

You already have some regulations, or I assume you do, as I can't take a .22 out for target practice in my city limits. In fact, I have to go pretty from my home to find an area where firing a firearm is legal.

The police have ranges that they practice at that are indoor. I'm sure of it. Some might actually be civilian based. It's worth looking into. I do realize, though, that California is so very difficult to work with when it comes to guns, however.

[Jager]

Justin,While I agree with you whole heartedly. There is one issue that I can see with the don't touch, tell an adult methodology. Living now in a society that demonizes firearms, a lot of people are now growing up having never held, seen or learned to operate a firearm safely. My concern is, as this trend continues, is it/will it be safe for adults to handle the firearm?

Right now, with my daughter being three the best policy is to keep my firearms locked up in the safe while they are not on my person. Repoman and I will have plenty of time to teach, Caroline how to handle, operate and shot (with small groups) firearms.

CZ that policy is an eddie eagle one that applies to young children up to 8-10 id guess. I was first taken shooting at 8 and learned then about proper gun use with BB guns and then 22s etc.

Having the experience under supervision makes all the difference.

I have taken my coworkers my friends and my significant others shooting so that they can experience what i did as a child, how a gun is dangerous, but responsible usage can be a great hobby and very relaxing. This also allows me to explain how to safely use and unload the weapons on the range. and as a side benefit they are more comfortable with me and my CWP.

Our responsibility is to teach and educate. whether the person is 8 or 80, sharing what we know and how we responsibly apply our rights to bear arms, is what we HAVE to do to continue to safely arm our citizens, guns arent toys or cool and like the movies, guns are tools like cars and farming equipment, just for a decidedly different purpose.

On a side note the NRA class I can teach we used to have a lawyer come and talk about the legal implications for every conceivable type of use for a gun. what we would be expected to do and what we CANT do.

that class always ran over about 2 hours extra.... I wish other people could get that kinda knowledge for the cost of the class.

Bob, all i can tell you is that the society you live in is vastly different from mine, Californias distaste for guns in general is very different from Virginia and other states that have a thriving sport hunting and range/target shooting entusiast groups. we are also blessed with generally a much lower population density (disregarding the DC sprawl of northern VA) so we can if the land is there go shooting at our houses (i have to drive about 20 minutes to do so)

I think the eddie eagle program is wonderful for training children what to do with firearms they may find (young kids) and it is unfortunate that many see the program as evil rather then responsible.

when i went to elementary school (early 90s) my father could and did get permission to bring my grandfathers vast collection of civil war arms into my classes and give presentations on the weapons. today and even then in many parts of the country you would NEVER see that happening, i think that separating facts from fiction is where we lost the ability to teach firearm safety. the hype of gun violence overtook the truth of responsible gun ownership which most gun owners are.

[Marenta]

Wow, Jager, I thought you were way older than I was.

If I can find the Eddie Eagle program in BFE Illinois when I go back.. my son is going to go through it. I am not going to have all these guns around and not have him understand safety. I realize that I can teach him, but I would rather him go through the course, just in case I miss something. Because, I know I am bound to forget to tell him something.

[Cold_Zero]

Anyone here NRA members?I am.

[Marenta]

Me! Yay!

[rn79870]

Wow, Jager, I thought you were way older than I was.

If I can find the Eddie Eagle program in BFE Illinois when I go back.. my son is going to go through it. I am not going to have all these guns around and not have him understand safety. I realize that I can teach him, but I would rather him go through the course, just in case I miss something. Because, I know I am bound to forget to tell him something.

And that is one of the best favors you can do for your son. Plus, your locking up all your weapons earns you high marks in my book. I wish all owners everywhere had your level or responsibility

[Jager]

heh im 24, i tend to surprise people with my age.

i am also an nra member, the instructor part kinda requires it :P

[Marenta]

Heh, I'm 24, I tend to surprise people with my age.

I am also an NRA member, the instructor part kinda requires it. :P

Bleh, you're just a smidgen younger than I am. No biggie.

BTW, fixed your post.

God, I really do have punctuation, spelling, and grammar OCD!