GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Forum for Infiniti M35 and M45, and Nissan Fuga owners.
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Sentientbydesign
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Re: NEW MOD FOR THE M35 & M45 (SOCAL OWNERS HELP!)

Postby Sentientbydesign » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:13 pm

M45 Price $110 Shipped

M35 Price $115 Shipped

I need to look over my notes to see what we can do about the VQ35HR version versus the VQ35DE version of the M35.


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Re: NEW MOD FOR THE M35 & M45 (SOCAL OWNERS HELP!)

Postby riggz » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:35 pm

Great! How do we order? Accept payment via PayPal?

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Re: NEW MOD FOR THE M35 & M45 (SOCAL OWNERS HELP!)

Postby Sentientbydesign » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:48 pm

riggz wrote:Great! How do we order? Accept payment via PayPal?
Send me an email with the model, year, and color you want (Gunmetal, Red, Blue, "Cola").

It's my username @yahoo.com. I'll shoot you out a paypal invoice. I just put in an order for supplies to accomodate you guys specifically. So I should be super busy this weekend.

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Re: NEW MOD FOR THE M35 & M45 (SOCAL OWNERS HELP!)

Postby EniGmA1987 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:21 pm

Alright then, all you people who have been keeping this thread alive looking for updates on the mod now is your time to come through and buy the mod. This is easily worth the cost. You get slightly faster response, MUCH faster shift times in manual, louder and cleaner sounding audio, and brighter headlights.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby CL92868 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:12 pm

+1

***BUMP****

Thanks Nate! My M45 is running like a stallion!! For the price, it's worth the investment.
Nate, I wonder if the ground kit was the key to the race we had.

Any questions, post and I'll try to answer them to best of my knowledge.


*****Waiting patiently till I UPREV!!!*******

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:18 pm

CL92868 wrote:+1

***BUMP****

Thanks Nate! My M45 is running like a stallion!! For the price, it's worth the investment.
Nate, I wonder if the ground kit was the key to the race we had.

Any questions, post and I'll try to answer them to best of my knowledge.


*****Waiting patiently till I UPREV!!!*******
Just HAD to rub it in huh? Let's go to the track in a month or two. I'll give you a proper launch and we'll see how it goes. :bigthumb:

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby CL92868 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:27 pm

Sentientbydesign wrote:
CL92868 wrote:+1

***BUMP****

Thanks Nate! My M45 is running like a stallion!! For the price, it's worth the investment.
Nate, I wonder if the ground kit was the key to the race we had.

Any questions, post and I'll try to answer them to best of my knowledge.


*****Waiting patiently till I UPREV!!!*******
Just HAD to rub it in huh? Let's go to the track in a month or two. I'll give you a proper launch and we'll see how it goes. :bigthumb:

Hahaha....Proper launch, 15mph? Uprev should fix that by then.

Great to see that your back. I kept thinking that you weren't going to be back any time soon. I was about to step in and 'service the Infiniti line up'. JK

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:39 pm

CL92868 wrote:
Sentientbydesign wrote: Just HAD to rub it in huh? Let's go to the track in a month or two. I'll give you a proper launch and we'll see how it goes. :bigthumb:

Hahaha....Proper launch, 15mph? Uprev should fix that by then.

Great to see that your back. I kept thinking that you weren't going to be back any time soon. I was about to step in and 'service the Infiniti line up'. JK

I forgot about your launch issue too. What I meant was lauching an evo requires some skills that I'm still working on. I have to ease the clutch in at like 3500 RPM in order to have enough torque from boost.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby M-Pilot » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:50 pm

Sorry for being naive... On a 55k to 65k automobile, why doesn't a "kit" like this just come standard? I mean, it costs $110...

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby CL92868 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:14 pm

M-Pilot wrote:Sorry for being naive... On a 55k to 65k automobile, why doesn't a "kit" like this just come standard? I mean, it costs $110...
I agree. But I think it comes down to the car engineers not thinking outside the box.
It comes down to people like Nate who strive to push every horse or pound out of their babies. :woot:

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby M-Pilot » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:42 pm

Thanks Nate!
CL92868 wrote:
M-Pilot wrote:Sorry for being naive... On a 55k to 65k automobile, why doesn't a "kit" like this just come standard? I mean, it costs $110...
I agree. But I think it comes down to the car engineers not thinking outside the box.
It comes down to people like Nate who strive to push every horse or pound out of their babies. :woot:

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby a.blanco0905 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:38 pm

I'm undecided in investing in this kit since there's no dyno chart but then again I b buyin sum dumb sh*t for my cars sometimes... Oh well, if it makes the stero sound better/louder and the engine & trans run smoother I guess it's worth the investment... I'll get one from Nate at the end of the month, not cuz I'm living check to check but so my wife doesnt kill me when I tell her I'm buying a "wire kit". On a real note though, if enough people are buying this and you are making a profit+, I think it would be fair for us consumers and smart for you, to invest in a dyno/electric test, in order for you to prove substantial improvement over the performance of a car using your kit.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby riggz » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:26 am

I don't think you're going to gain any HP that would show up on a dyno. A dyno doesn't measure how fast it goes from 0-60 or how fast it shifts.

Also, I sent an email requesting an invoice, but haven't received the invoice yet.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby EniGmA1987 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:09 pm

Yes Riggz is right. WHile some people claim they have a HP and TQ increase after putting a grounding kit on, I do not think that a grounding kit actually provides a HP increase. What it does is make the car response faster and shift quicker. So it can kinda feel like a HP increase because the car is much more responsive to you. In addition to the other benefits the kit provides.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby a.blanco0905 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:19 pm

riggz wrote:I don't think you're going to gain any HP that would show up on a dyno. A dyno doesn't measure how fast it goes from 0-60 or how fast it shifts.
EniGmA1987 wrote:Yes Riggz is right. WHile some people claim they have a HP and TQ increase after putting a grounding kit on, I do not think that a grounding kit actually provides a HP increase. What it does is make the car response faster and shift quicker. So it can kinda feel like a HP increase because the car is much more responsive to you. In addition to the other benefits the kit provides.
Point taken, I know little about car engineering and a lot less (nothing really) about electricity, so that's why I said on my post "dyno/electric test" inferring the possibility of some form of electric test proving the current in the car to be "cleaner" or whatever... Is that possible?? Makes sense?

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby EniGmA1987 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:27 pm

Well a Dyno cant do that. However it may be possible to get a multimeter or some other instrument that can measure electrical stuff and do some measurements. Maybe a simple resistance test between some points with and without the kit. Or maybe it would be possible to hook up a couple volts to the car at the starting position of each of the circuits being grounded and measure the voltage received at the ground point of the circuit, both before and after the grounding kit.


While those would provide "scientific numbers" as to there being an improvement, it still wouldnt actually prove to what amount there is an improvement. The only way you are going to know that is by doing the mod and seeing it for yourself.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby a.blanco0905 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:58 pm

Fair enough... :cheers:

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby riggz » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:17 pm

If you had some way to log the shift times via a laptop you might be able to record the improvement.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby EniGmA1987 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:18 pm

part of the problem with that is that depending on how hard you are pushing the car and how you drive, the shift times change. So one persons shift times might be different than anothers.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:00 pm

To all those wanting testing. Me too! There are a few reasons why I haven't.

1) The HP gain from a grounding kit falls into the error range for a dyno. I had my G35 dynoed 3 times. Not once did the numbers from pull to pull come exactly or within 1 hp of each other. And this was on two different types of dynos at two different shops.

2) Testing the electrical would require the car to be moving and sensors at multiple points (Think transmission, ECU, ABS...etc.). The idea about hooking up a laptop to monitor transmission shift times might work if both the tiptronic signal and the transmission shift signal were both being monitored simultaneously.

3) I could test all of this out, then post up my findings and watch as everybody flocked to start their own grounding kit business. Kind of pointless...



To answer the question about why Nissan doesn't engineer their electrical systems better...Probably because the methods they use are pretty standard. But it gets sticky when you add on as many electrical components as they have. Not all manufacturers ground like Nissan/Infiniti does. Some do a much better job...

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby riggz » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:45 pm

Any word on when you can send me a paypal invoice? I sent an email last week.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:59 pm

riggz wrote:Any word on when you can send me a paypal invoice? I sent an email last week.
Just sent it. One of the pitfalls of reading your emails on your phone...

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby svard75 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:34 am

Sentientbydesign wrote:To all those wanting testing. Me too! There are a few reasons why I haven't.

1) The HP gain from a grounding kit falls into the error range for a dyno. I had my G35 dynoed 3 times. Not once did the numbers from pull to pull come exactly or within 1 hp of each other. And this was on two different types of dynos at two different shops.

2) Testing the electrical would require the car to be moving and sensors at multiple points (Think transmission, ECU, ABS...etc.). The idea about hooking up a laptop to monitor transmission shift times might work if both the tiptronic signal and the transmission shift signal were both being monitored simultaneously.

3) I could test all of this out, then post up my findings and watch as everybody flocked to start their own grounding kit business. Kind of pointless...



To answer the question about why Nissan doesn't engineer their electrical systems better...Probably because the methods they use are pretty standard. But it gets sticky when you add on as many electrical components as they have. Not all manufacturers ground like Nissan/Infiniti does. Some do a much better job...
IMO this is one of those mods that you just do or don't. No proof on paper available, however coming from an engineering background I can attest that when you ground an object with larger wires and/or more grounding points there are more paths of less resistance for the electrons to reach the battery and alternator circuit. This means the engines components such as spark plugs, fuel injectors, sensors and electronics in general will have a quicker response time and as for the spark plugs and fuel injectors greater current for a greater spark and more precise fuel injector functions. It makes sense to me 100%.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_path_least_resistance/ and http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=148091 for reference.

To summarize, circuits in general have resistance, even wires. The larger the gauge (0 is larger than 4, etc) the less the resistance, however the length determines resistance as well so if you think of the engine metal parts and body as a wire for the ground part of the circuit think of how long the electrons have to travel to make it back to the battery/alternator circuit. By adding thick short wires you are shortening the path allowing for faster reaction times. Although IMO the ECU must also be grounded better because it's the brains of all the reactions anyway. Then other factors come into play such as temperature. The higher the temps the more resistance, so placement of the wires must be considered. Then you have external influences such as moisture and corrosion they both add to the resistance so on and so on...

@Sentientbydesign - How often do you make the kits? I would like to order one but don't want to wait too long after paying for it. Let me know if you have a few lying around I'll send you the paypal right away.

Cheers to you bud :cheers:

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:52 am

msvara wrote:
Sentientbydesign wrote:To all those wanting testing. Me too! There are a few reasons why I haven't.

1) The HP gain from a grounding kit falls into the error range for a dyno. I had my G35 dynoed 3 times. Not once did the numbers from pull to pull come exactly or within 1 hp of each other. And this was on two different types of dynos at two different shops.

2) Testing the electrical would require the car to be moving and sensors at multiple points (Think transmission, ECU, ABS...etc.). The idea about hooking up a laptop to monitor transmission shift times might work if both the tiptronic signal and the transmission shift signal were both being monitored simultaneously.

3) I could test all of this out, then post up my findings and watch as everybody flocked to start their own grounding kit business. Kind of pointless...



To answer the question about why Nissan doesn't engineer their electrical systems better...Probably because the methods they use are pretty standard. But it gets sticky when you add on as many electrical components as they have. Not all manufacturers ground like Nissan/Infiniti does. Some do a much better job...
IMO this is one of those mods that you just do or don't. No proof on paper available, however coming from an engineering background I can attest that when you ground an object with larger wires and/or more grounding points there are more paths of less resistance for the electrons to reach the battery and alternator circuit. This means the engines components such as spark plugs, fuel injectors, sensors and electronics in general will have a quicker response time and as for the spark plugs and fuel injectors greater current for a greater spark and more precise fuel injector functions. It makes sense to me 100%.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_path_least_resistance/ and http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=148091 for reference.

To summarize, circuits in general have resistance, even wires. The larger the gauge (0 is larger than 4, etc) the less the resistance, however the length determines resistance as well so if you think of the engine metal parts and body as a wire for the ground part of the circuit think of how long the electrons have to travel to make it back to the battery/alternator circuit. By adding thick short wires you are shortening the path allowing for faster reaction times. Although IMO the ECU must also be grounded better because it's the brains of all the reactions anyway. Then other factors come into play such as temperature. The higher the temps the more resistance, so placement of the wires must be considered. Then you have external influences such as moisture and corrosion they both add to the resistance so on and so on...

@Sentientbydesign - How often do you make the kits? I would like to order one but don't want to wait too long after paying for it. Let me know if you have a few lying around I'll send you the paypal right away.

Cheers to you bud :cheers:

Excellent explanation. I don't think I could have said it better myself. All kits are made to order. Right now, lead time is probably a week out. Although I will be having some help on Saturday to process the sudden influx of orders, so it might be a good idea for you to order before then.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby svard75 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:57 am

Will it work on the M35x meaning AWD model? The only difference I believe is after the transmission (Transfer Case).

M

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:10 am

msvara wrote:Will it work on the M35x meaning AWD model? The only difference I believe is after the transmission (Transfer Case).

M
Since the M35 and G35 kits are almost identical, then yes. The kit should fit. Installing the kit on an "X" model is a little more difficult due to the extra drive shaft, but it shouldn't be too hard.

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby szh » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:11 am

Umm ... as another electrical engineer, I just have to clarify a few comments that I see in posts in this thread.

Electrons in current in wires at room temperature actually travel very slowly ... on the order of 0.75 centimeters per second. Electrical effects of charge flow (current) are light-speed - quite a different thing. :) So, making the "distance" traveled by the electrons longer or shorter is not really relevant at all - certainly not for the path lengths inside a typical car. :biggrin: !

From a resistance perspective, the equation is "Resistance = Resistivity times length divided by cross-section area".

So ...
  • If a given wire length remains the same, then making it larger in diameter is a good thing, since resistance is inversely proportional to cross-sectional area.
  • For the same diameter, reducing wire length is a good thing too, since resistance is directly proportional to length.
Yes, temperature can affect resistance, but these effects are likely to be swamped by factors like length and cross-section area. Particularly for the wiring material (Copper) and typical temperatures inside an engine compartment.

Yes, in general, reducing wiring resistance can help in some ways and not matter in others:
  • Increases current flow in situations needed. For example, current draw from batteries needs to be high for cranking starter motors, without significant voltage drop in the wring (deliver more voltage and current to the starter). So, for example, wires to the battery are generally quite thick!
  • Reduces the voltage drops in the wiring. But, this is dependent on the actual current flow, of course - like when cranking the starter. For low-current situations, the drops are often not significant enough to matter.
  • Improves the transient response of high-speed signals. However, most signals in cars are not high-speed - certainly not in the areas where grounding kits can make a difference.
  • In many cars, the metal body is used for ground paths - this can provide way lower overall resistance than any grounding wires, since the "effective" cross-section area is large. But, how and where you contact the body - and what kind of connection you use - could make a difference.
  • Connections do matter. So, corrosion and metal-to-metal changes (copper is malleable) are important. For best results, solder or weld the connection - then there is no chance of increases in contact resistance (which would nullify the gain due to using heavier wires or connectors).
So ... the question arises: are grounding kits worth it? The answer is "it depends". There are some clear and some not so clear points to be made, as far as I am concerned.
  • There will NOT be any horsepower increase. The power of gasoline engines comes from conversion of explosive energy from the combustion of gas-air mixtures. No grounding kit can change that, sorry!
  • In theory, you could get better grounds, and thus less "ground-bounce" (or altered logic level references low for electronic circuits). But, if the current in these electronic circuits are not high current power draws, then the voltage drop is not usually significant enough to matter.
  • Providing alternate paths from various points on the car back to the battery is not likely to be particularly effective for longer distances. The farther the connection, the more likely the current flow in the body will be as good or better, since the length of the wire will be long.
Will using a grounding kit hurt? No, not unless it shorts something out.

Will using a grounding kit help? In theory it could.


In practice, I am not sure that the effect will matter much - perceptions and hopefulness do not count! :) Until someone puts a scope on a car electrical stuff where it is supposed to make a difference (like some signal from the ECU) and shows a clear improvement in signal shape - better rise times, or reduced overshoot, faster signals, etc., etc., etc., - I will hold on to my money. :)

Of course, YMMV. If you want to spend money on a well-made kit that does not short things out, and feel it gives you a benefit (cost is relatively low enough), then please do go for it. :yesnod

Z

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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:05 pm

szh wrote:Umm ... as another electrical engineer, I just have to clarify a few comments that I see in posts in this thread.

Electrons in current in wires at room temperature actually travel very slowly ... on the order of 0.75 centimeters per second. Electrical effects of charge flow (current) are light-speed - quite a different thing. :) So, making the "distance" traveled by the electrons longer or shorter is not really relevant at all - certainly not for the path lengths inside a typical car. :biggrin: !

From a resistance perspective, the equation is "Resistance = Resistivity times length divided by cross-section area".

So ...
  • If a given wire length remains the same, then making it larger in diameter is a good thing, since resistance is inversely proportional to cross-sectional area.
  • For the same diameter, reducing wire length is a good thing too, since resistance is directly proportional to length.
Yes, temperature can affect resistance, but these effects are likely to be swamped by factors like length and cross-section area. Particularly for the wiring material (Copper) and typical temperatures inside an engine compartment.

Yes, in general, reducing wiring resistance can help in some ways and not matter in others:
  • Increases current flow in situations needed. For example, current draw from batteries needs to be high for cranking starter motors, without significant voltage drop in the wring (deliver more voltage and current to the starter). So, for example, wires to the battery are generally quite thick!
  • Reduces the voltage drops in the wiring. But, this is dependent on the actual current flow, of course - like when cranking the starter. For low-current situations, the drops are often not significant enough to matter.
  • Improves the transient response of high-speed signals. However, most signals in cars are not high-speed - certainly not in the areas where grounding kits can make a difference.
  • In many cars, the metal body is used for ground paths - this can provide way lower overall resistance than any grounding wires, since the "effective" cross-section area is large. But, how and where you contact the body - and what kind of connection you use - could make a difference.
  • Connections do matter. So, corrosion and metal-to-metal changes (copper is malleable) are important. For best results, solder or weld the connection - then there is no chance of increases in contact resistance (which would nullify the gain due to using heavier wires or connectors).
So ... the question arises: are grounding kits worth it? The answer is "it depends". There are some clear and some not so clear points to be made, as far as I am concerned.
  • There will NOT be any horsepower increase. The power of gasoline engines comes from conversion of explosive energy from the combustion of gas-air mixtures. No grounding kit can change that, sorry!
  • In theory, you could get better grounds, and thus less "ground-bounce" (or altered logic level references low for electronic circuits). But, if the current in these electronic circuits are not high current power draws, then the voltage drop is not usually significant enough to matter.
  • Providing alternate paths from various points on the car back to the battery is not likely to be particularly effective for longer distances. The farther the connection, the more likely the current flow in the body will be as good or better, since the length of the wire will be long.
Will using a grounding kit hurt? No, not unless it shorts something out.

Will using a grounding kit help? In theory it could.


In practice, I am not sure that the effect will matter much - perceptions and hopefulness do not count! :) Until someone puts a scope on a car electrical stuff where it is supposed to make a difference (like some signal from the ECU) and shows a clear improvement in signal shape - better rise times, or reduced overshoot, faster signals, etc., etc., etc., - I will hold on to my money. :)

Of course, YMMV. If you want to spend money on a well-made kit that does not short things out, and feel it gives you a benefit (cost is relatively low enough), then please do go for it. :yesnod

Z

I agree with MOST of this, but there are some oversights. First of all, I don't believe a grounding kit will make much if any power. HOWEVER, in a poorly grounded design, a grounding kit can in fact increase horsepower simply by providing efficiency lost in the design flaws. If for instance, the ground for the spark plug was undersized (again, not applicable, but a possibility), the spark may cause in complete burn with too small a combustion.

I also have a hard time understanding how a wire with somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 ohm per 1000 feet (I'll have to get exact figures...) could possibly have higher resistance than the body of the car. My understanding is that copper is a much better conductor of electricity than steel is. And when you consider how many electrical paths are limited by small weld areas, gaskets, locktite and anti-seize, the actual conductivity and resistance (especially at higher current) becomes more of a puzzle.

More to come after lunch.

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Sentientbydesign
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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby Sentientbydesign » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:18 pm

I was going to come back to this and decided not to. I've argued this same argument for almost 3 years now and despite all of the naysayers, there are still tons of very experienced members on the forums who have experienced real results. There are some big changes coming around the corner which might bring some testing into the equation, but that won't happen for a few months at the earliest.

To all those who've ordered. Most of your kits have been mailed (with the exception of one M35 kit). I'm super inundated (and can't spell) with projects right now, but I plan on tackling the install instructions shortly and emailing them to you. IF you just can't wait. I can shoot over some photos and a quick and dirty install guide, but I'd rather just send the completed manual.

riggz
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Re: GROUNDING KITS for the Infiniti M35/M45 — Available NOW!

Postby riggz » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:24 pm

Any update on the install instructions? The wires keep asking me when they are going to be installed! :)


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