Ground Wire Kit

[suby01]

OK first off i was not going to post this up on here because of Sentientbydesign selling these kits on here

BUT after reading several posts about people who do not think they do anything for our cars are a little seriously!!!!

and im mostly referring to this thread.

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread?id=444264

where some are arguing left and right about something that someone just wants to argue about. (its like mud wrestling with a pig...after a while you realize the pigs actually enjoying it)

****ive done this a long time ago but heres MY OWN facts/outcome**

So I was looking into the grounding wires for our cars. I heard mixed reviews about them. Some have dynoed it said had some minimal gains but gains either way. Some said no gains just better vehicle response louder radio and some no changes at all. I was going to do it with the stillen kit but, its like a buck and change for it, I was always holding off because of the price amount for like minimal to no change definitely wasn’t worth it for the stillen product.

Few days back met a G owner in my area that had the stillen kit and showed me what it was all about and things like that. Still don’t think they are worth the $100++. He said he got some gains where the engine runs smoother and shifts more responsivley..So he said it did make a minimal change in his on his G35S

Talked to my buddies about that and decided to make my own. After a day of measuring everything out to where the wires are supposed to go from the stillen kit. I was able to get a good price for my wires and the kit that I put together was at a fraction of stillens.

The wires that I used were stinger 4 gauge high performance wires with 4 gauge stinger gold connectors.

Hyper-Twist Power CableStrand Count: 1666-20 to 105 Degree Celsius Rated

Stillens kit is 8 Gauge wires with copper connectors. Same amount of wires and mounted all in the same places that stillens is.

After another day of cutting measuring, splicing, retrofitting, whatever else I needed so it fit and looks great. Now everything’s is all set.

Here’s my review-when I started the car up it was about 40 degrees out started up normal, put the car in reverse to back up and didn’t notice it was in reverse, usually when shifting to reverse there’s a minimal nudge or whatever you call it when going from P to R there was nothing.

-another thing I noticed was that the radio was louder, I had to tune the stations back to the presets since the battery was disconnected and put the volume all way up and it almost sounded the same as it did before the wire install, THEN I remembered that the settings are set to default so the treble and bass were in the middle, cranked that up and yaaaahh, definitely noticed a difference.

-didn’t notice anything from hp/butt dyno unlike the HFC or intake, but the shifting was soooo fast like I don’t know what the stock shift speed is "bla blaa. 1.54564534 sec whatever", but with the kit it sure is a lot quicker no matter if it’s at WOT or just normal driving in D and shifting at 3-4k rpm.

Here’s a picture that I took off the stinger site of exactly what I have. I got the dark gray wires just to keep it a stock look.



my finished product how the finish is and how the wires actually look.

[Sentientbydesign]

Good Job, Suby!

Stillen's kit for the newer Gs isn't half bad (mine's still better hehehe). The one for the older single intake G/Z is pathetic.

[suby01]

haha. thanks. well mines also better than the stillen kit too, gold plated and thicker.
Modified by suby01 at 3:54 PM 8/21/2009

[SVTCOBRA]

Nice review!!

Is there another Grounding Kit Thread?? When did this happen???

Honestly, I don't know why anybody would BUY a set from Stillen when a Nico member sells them, but that's just me.

I have only heard positive reviews here on grounding kits until recently.

Glad to see Nico members THAT HAVE INSTALLED A GROUNDING KIT express their opinions!

I don't really have the funds right now (married with children), but might have to sell some of the wife's jewelry that she doesn't wear on ebay!

[pfarmer]

OK first off i was not going to post this up on here because of Sentientbydesign selling these kits on here

BUT after reading several posts about people who do not think they do anything for our cars are a little seriously!!!!

Did you add a new negative battery cable to the mix on your 07?

Perry

[suby01]

yes there is a another negative battery cable wire that is used.

[suby01]

Nice review!!

Is there another Grounding Kit Thread?? When did this happen???

Honestly, I don't know why anybody would BUY a set from Stillen when a Nico member sells them, but that's just me.

I have only heard positive reviews here on grounding kits until recently.

Glad to see Nico members THAT HAVE INSTALLED A GROUNDING KIT express their opinions!

I don't really have the funds right now (married with children), but might have to sell some of the wife's jewelry that she doesn't wear on ebay!

ya well mine was 50% less then the "msrp". all it took was some elbow grease and a audio store hook up. so i cant complain. esp with actual gains.

[pfarmer]

yes there is a another negative battery cable wire that is used.

If this is installed like I have seen most of them then basically you changed the stock cable end and installed both the new and old into this new end probably using a two or three into one block that utilizes a set screw.

However it is done on the battery most likely you just partially bypassed part of the charging circuit on an 07 or an 08 and most likely an 09.

One thing to consider also is capacity. The negative battery cable will most likely have no influence at all since your operating system ground is basically referenced from the block once the car has been operating for a short period, not the battery.

Perry

[pfarmer]

yes there is a another negative battery cable wire that is used.

This is the issue I see with the second negative battery cable and I am assuming you installed it like I stated so you now have two cables, the factory cable and your new one connected to your battery and your ground.

If both cables are the same size then if you have 10 amps flowing from your battery to ground you have 5 amps in each leg. Doesn't sound like an issue but for an 07, 08, and probably an 09 something is ignored in this picture. On these models there is a current sensor on the stock negative battery cable that is used for determination of alternator output. Your alternator output voltage is your system voltage. Not sure how much this would change but I believe it would change if you are now only sensing 50% or less (larger second cable) of your battery current flow. Once fully charged then the current flow should end up very low. I have been looking at this for those thinking about a second battery for higher powered sound systems and how this may affect the normal charging of the primary battery.

From the FSM for the 07:

-----------------------------

Battery current sensor

Battery current sensor is installed to the battery cable at the negativeterminal, and it detects the charging/discharging current ofthe battery and sends the voltage signal to ECM according to thecurrent value.

ECM

Battery current sensor detects the charging/discharging current ofthe battery. ECM judges the battery condition based on this signal.ECM judges whether to perform the power generation voltagevariable control according to the battery condition.When performing the power generation voltage variable control,ECM calculates the target power generation voltage according tothe battery condition and sends the calculated value as the powergeneration command value to IPDM E/R.

IPDM E/R

IPDM E/R converts the received power generation command valueinto the power generation command signal (PWM signal) andsends it to the IC regulator.

Alternator (IC regulator)

IC regulator controls the power generation voltage by the targetpower generation voltage based on the received power generationcommand signal.When there is no power generation command signal, the alternatorperforms the normal power generation according to the characteristicof the IC regulator.

--------------------

I think on these models there is little to gain if anything by the larger negative battery cable since your car basically runs off the alternator which is grounded to the block which is grounded to the rest. As long as the stock cable is satisfactory for doing the job it is designed to do (start the car and charge the battery) then it pretty much drops out of the picture.

Intially after starting the car I measured a current flow of 40 amps on the positive lead and somewhat less than that in the negative. After the car was running for a short time it dropped to less than 5 on the negative. I didn't meaure after that but 5 amps could be carried by a #22 gauge cable which indicates that a larger cable is not needed and may be an issue if not allowing the alternator to operate normally due to the current sensor being bypassed..

Perry
Modified by pfarmer at 12:24 AM 8/24/2009

[SVTCOBRA]

ya well mine was 50% less then the "msrp". all it took was some elbow grease and a audio store hook up. so i cant complain. esp with actual gains.

Cool!!

[suby01]

This is the issue I see with the second negative battery cable and I am assuming you installed it like I stated so you now have two cables, the factory cable and your new one connected to your battery and your ground.

If both cables are the same size then if you have 10 amps flowing from your battery to ground you have 5 amps in each leg. Doesn't sound like an issue but for an 07, 08, and probably an 09 something is ignored in this picture. On these models there is a current sensor on the stock negative battery cable that is used for determination of alternator output. Your alternator output voltage is your system voltage. Not sure how much this would change but I believe it would change if you are now only sensing 50% or less (larger second cable) of your battery current flow. Once fully charged then the current flow should end up very low. I have been looking at this for those thinking about a second battery for higher powered sound systems and how this may affect the normal charging of the primary battery.

From the FSM for the 07:

-----------------------------

Battery current sensor

Battery current sensor is installed to the battery cable at the negativeterminal, and it detects the charging/discharging current ofthe battery and sends the voltage signal to ECM according to thecurrent value.

ECM

Battery current sensor detects the charging/discharging current ofthe battery. ECM judges the battery condition based on this signal.ECM judges whether to perform the power generation voltagevariable control according to the battery condition.When performing the power generation voltage variable control,ECM calculates the target power generation voltage according tothe battery condition and sends the calculated value as the powergeneration command value to IPDM E/R.

IPDM E/R

IPDM E/R converts the received power generation command valueinto the power generation command signal (PWM signal) andsends it to the IC regulator.

Alternator (IC regulator)

IC regulator controls the power generation voltage by the targetpower generation voltage based on the received power generationcommand signal.When there is no power generation command signal, the alternatorperforms the normal power generation according to the characteristicof the IC regulator.

--------------------

I think on these models there is little to gain if anything by the larger negative battery cable since your car basically runs off the alternator which is grounded to the block which is grounded to the rest. As long as the stock cable is satisfactory for doing the job it is designed to do (start the car and charge the battery) then it pretty much drops out of the picture.

Intially after starting the car I measured a current flow of 40 amps on the positive lead and somewhat less than that in the negative. After the car was running for a short time it dropped to less than 5 on the negative. I didn't meaure after that but 5 amps could be carried by a #22 gauge cable which indicates that a larger cable is not needed and may be an issue if not allowing the alternator to operate normally due to the current sensor being bypassed..

Perry

Modified by pfarmer at 12:24 AM 8/24/2009

little to no gain...i dont know currents amps or any other technicalities to measure. all i know my car shifts faster and radio is louder. which wire did what or whatever else.

my way was very cost efficient and like i said in the first post

Ex. if it takes a fraction of a second to shift from one gear to another and with the grounding wires if i gained .000000000000000001 fraction of that second then so be it to me it still is a gain. and to me it was beneficial and i dont have tools to measure anything and or feel the need to at any point and time in the future that i need scientific facts to prove my point divided by PI.

just my findings from me to everyone here on the forum.

[Sentientbydesign]

Perry,

Mind telling me where in the ESM you found this sensor? I'd like to take a look. Kind of odd that they placed it on the negative side and not integrated it into the fuse container on the positive side.

[pfarmer]

Perry,

Mind telling me where in the ESM you found this sensor? I'd like to take a look. Kind of odd that they placed it on the negative side and not integrated it into the fuse container on the positive side.

I don't really find it odd in that it tells the state of the battery, the negative lead is the only spot where the battery state is essentially isolated from the rest of the electrical system. The positive side of the alternator is connected to everything the positive side of the battery is connected to. You could do it there but not easily with how the cables come together on the positive lead of the battery. This just gave me an idea when it comes to a second battery setup.

I have confirmed what the device is. It appears to be a ct (current transformer) which is a donut loop of windings surrounding the cable whose current you are measuring.

The description is on page 8 of the FSM of the 2007 charging circuit.

My experience with these is that it may be possible to replace with another of the same characteristics that may be able to handle a larger conductor. I don't know if such an animal is available however for the Infiniti.

Perry

[pfarmer]

little to no gain...i dont know currents amps or any other technicalities to measure. all i know my car shifts faster and radio is louder. which wire did what or whatever else.

my way was very cost efficient and like i said in the first post

Ex. if it takes a fraction of a second to shift from one gear to another and with the grounding wires if i gained .000000000000000001 fraction of that second then so be it to me it still is a gain. and to me it was beneficial and i dont have tools to measure anything and or feel the need to at any point and time in the future that i need scientific facts to prove my point divided by PI.

just my findings from me to everyone here on the forum.

Even if the cable I mentioned is not needed and causes a possible issue with charging? The stock cable far exceeds the normal battery draw once the battery is charged after starting (I measured this to as little as 1-2 amps). Once the car is running you are running on the alternator so the point of reference in regard to power supplies and ground shifts to the alternator ground, the battery now becomes a load.

Perry

[suby01]

[pfarmer]

If you have a digital meter or can get your hands on one I would be curious what the voltage on your battery is with the extra negative lead connected (car running) since this is the same as the alternator.

The reason I got to looking at this was because of the idea of a second battery for a larger amp (as well as a couple of other items). The intent is not to try to increase capacity beyond what is there since that is not how this works, you don't want to exceed the stock alternator.

If you connect the second battery in using the stock alternator, then how do you do so since the alternator output will follow the charging rate of the first battery. What I am looking at is a way for the main battery to power up everything but cut off when the voltage drops to a certain value and have the second battery cut in at the same exact time forming what amounts to an ups, only a battery powered ups for both the main and aux supply (therefore no relays). Typically with an ups this would entail a blocking diode on the second battery with the primary source running a volt or so above the voltage of the second battery which has its own charger.

This is well and good for an industrial application but for a car it presents an issue in that the bandwidth (voltage) is somewhat narrow. You want to stay above the minimum for the sound system for the second battery but the main seems to run at about 13 even (on my car) when fully charged.

This is what I measured. Battery at about 13 volts prior to starting the car. Car starts and charging voltage climbs to about 14 volts. After a few minutes the voltage starts to drop and over a period of about 1-2 minutes it settles in around 13 volts (lights off) or drops to around 12.6 - 12.8 (with lights on) and then if the lights were on climbs back up to around 13 even.

This leads me to think that the second system should be charged to around this 12.6 or so and as soon as it is in service then the main is cut off completely (to the sound system) with maybe a seal in relay to keep it out of the picture as the second battery drains. The main purpose of the second battery is a backup for the first to listen to the system with the car off and to protect the main from discharging so far that starting the car is compromised. Not sure about the Infiniti (I heard 10 volts someplace), but on my 300m this seems to be about 11 volts. I am running one connected (I have two mounted I intend to split front and back amps) 500 watt 5 channel amp and a 200 watt sub woofer.

Upon starting the car or system is shut off the seal in is released, you are back on the main as long as the main voltage is higher than the secondary(I state relay but this would be a solid state relay). That is the concept. The secondary will simply drop out of the picture due to the blocking diode.

Perry

[Sentientbydesign]

Wouldn't it be easier to find a battery with a higher capacity?

Also, I'm a little fuzzy as to why a second parallel battery would pose an issue.

[pfarmer]

Wouldn't it be easier to find a battery with a higher capacity?

Also, I'm a little fuzzy as to why a second parallel battery would pose an issue.

The car runs off of the alternator but needs the battery to start. The issue is just to keep the larger sound system from preventing from starting which could be an issue with any battery. My sound system in my other car will drain my othe battery down within about 1/2 hour to an area that causes starting issues and it has the largest battery that will fit in its slot.

The idea of the second battery is that it is not in parallel. It is a backup to the system which comes into play prior to the main battery being drawn down to a point of no return. Unless you are planning on charging it on the outside it needs to be figured into a charging scheme. The normal way of cutting the battery in on an ups is to float the charge to the secondary battery to just below the normal source so when the normal source drops out the backup is automatically in service. This is usually done with a blocking diode. In this way you have a true uninteruptable source since the second battery is held out of service by the bias on the diode. To do this correctly you need to set the voltage it will stay at.

Now you would want to do this while the car is running and need to set the charge rate separate from that of the main system which is set based on the current sensor in the negative lead. Probably the best way would be simply to use a current limited 5 volt voltage regulator (typically 5.1 volts) with its ground floated to 7.5. This would allow the battery to be charged and maintained at a different voltage than the main battery. This part is fairly easy, the harder part is cutting out the main and keeping it that way with the car turned off. I am looking at SCR for this based on a current sensor on the backup.

Perry