Green Cars Dirty Little Secret

[darylzero]

Saw this article in the WSJ

A 2012 comprehensive life-cycle analysis in Journal of Industrial Ecology shows that almost half the lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions from an electric car come from the energy used to produce the car, especially the battery. The mining of lithium, for instance, is a less than green activity. By contrast, the manufacture of a gas-powered car accounts for 17% of its lifetime carbon-dioxide emissions. When an electric car rolls off the production line, it has already been responsible for 30,000 pounds of carbon-dioxide emission. The amount for making a conventional car: 14,000 pounds.

Not to mention the tax subsidizes we pay for these cars.

Also, how are people going to sell these cars after 7-10 years or possibly less when they will most likely need completely new battery systems?

[sprocketser]

Well , as for the 5-7 years span , I wouldn t like to have one of those cars .

[JTR32gtst]

People do not do research or do not want to believe it. You try telling some tree hugging, gun hating hippy that their Hybrid is worse on the environment then my Skyline, they will laugh at you and try and spew falsities to justify their lame and uneducated choice. People like to feel good about what is going on, even if it means turning a blind eye to the truths. People feel safe at home, blast guns, curse our troops, yet, they would not be on those front lines earning those freedoms they use blindly. People just want to feel good, they could careless how, and hybrids are "feel-good" cars.

I take internal combustion over anything right now until Hydrogen cell is more stable or the use of CNG is more widely used in commuter cars.

[nissangirl74]

Also, how are people going to sell these cars after 7-10 years or possibly less when they will most likely need completely new battery systems?

Good question. It depends on the support system set up for them. We own two hybrids: Honda Insights. Luckily, we have a battery re-builder less than 10 miles from our house. When we had to have our batteries re-built, we took them to him. He's also one of less than 5 people in the country doing this. If you don't have access to someone like him, I don't really see how you could justify the purchase. I also wonder how the dealerships will handle them. Will an inspection include the (estimated) remaining life left in the battery? I can't imagine them offering a warranty.

[krash]

I'm all for combustion engines and all, but this article seems really biased.

They seemed to have left out a bunch of info, like what the total lifetime CO2 emissions are of electric vs gas. I did the math here: if half of the CO2 emissions of an electric car come from production and production outputs 30,000 pounds of co2, the electric vehicle is expected to produce 60,000 pounds of Co2 in its lifetime. And if 17% of a gas powered car's Co2 emissions is in production, and production outputs 14,000 pounds of CO2, the gas car is expected to produce about 82,000 pounds of CO2 in its lifetime. So the electric car wins...

Also, not everyone is buying electric cars to be hip. Take Greg and Becky for example, they bought 2 Insights so they can save gas money to spend on their countless vintage Datsuns.

I don't think electric cars are the answer to the worlds problems, I'm much more supportive of hydrogen combustion. But I hate an article with so many holes that I can't use it as an argument against electric.

[JTR32gtst]

I'm all for combustion engines and all, but this article seems really biased.

They seemed to have left out a bunch of info, like what the total lifetime CO2 emissions are of electric vs gas. I did the math here: if half of the CO2 emissions of an electric car come from production and production outputs 30,000 pounds of co2, the electric vehicle is expected to produce 60,000 pounds of Co2 in its lifetime. And if 17% of a gas powered car's Co2 emissions is in production, and production outputs 14,000 pounds of CO2, the gas car is expected to produce about 82,000 pounds of CO2 in its lifetime. So the electric car wins...

Also, not everyone is buying electric cars to be hip. Take Greg and Becky for example, they bought 2 Insights so they can save gas money to spend on their countless vintage Datsuns.

I don't think electric cars are the answer to the worlds problems, I'm much more supportive of hydrogen combustion. But I hate an article with so many holes that I can't use it as an argument against electric.

My only thing against electric cars is they do not reproduce their own, therefore, that electricity comes from somewhere. I know that in the "manufacturing" and delivery process of electricity, only about 33% of what is made actually reaches its end destination. The reason I brought up CNG, is the "manufacturing" and delivery of NG is 97% in the end game. So basically, its cleaner, and more product comes from NG. Electric is great, but until they can get longer distances and self generate enough electricity, without having tons of batteries on board that will eventually go bad and end up somewhere, I just do not think full electric, or even hybrid of gas/electric is the end game.

I do agree, that the full electric can help in certian cases. If a person lives in a major metropolis, and never leaves the area, the full electric is a kickass way. No emissions. I can see why they are used, but I just cannot bring myself to say it is leaps and bounds above all else. Technology changes, the electric will become more efficient, of course, but hopefully by then technology can bring us much cleaner, much more abundant source for our rides. This is all, of course, just my own opinion.

[RicerX]

My only thing against electric cars is they do not reproduce their own, therefore, that electricity comes from somewhere. I know that in the "manufacturing" and delivery process of electricity, only about 33% of what is made actually reaches its end destination. The reason I brought up CNG, is the "manufacturing" and delivery of NG is 97% in the end game. So basically, its cleaner, and more product comes from NG. Electric is great, but until they can get longer distances and self generate enough electricity, without having tons of batteries on board that will eventually go bad and end up somewhere, I just do not think full electric, or even hybrid of gas/electric is the end game.

I do agree, that the full electric can help in certian cases. If a person lives in a major metropolis, and never leaves the area, the full electric is a kickass way. No emissions. I can see why they are used, but I just cannot bring myself to say it is leaps and bounds above all else. Technology changes, the electric will become more efficient, of course, but hopefully by then technology can bring us much cleaner, much more abundant source for our rides. This is all, of course, just my own opinion.

I preach this point very often to those who are unrealistically for the electric car and are big environmental hippies.

The majority of the major cities that are prime candidates for the electric car lifestyle are powered by coal. Coal power plants, as most of you are aware, are largely inefficient and not so great for the environment. That's what's powering these electric cars. 99% of buyers don't look past the electrical outlets in their garage and prefer to remain in blissful ignorance when you argue this point. In a lot of cases, in the current climate and infrastructure, you're only trading one type of environmental harm for another.

It is for this reason that I think electric cars are destined to fail, again. I think they're just noise - a bridge to the real alternative energy solution for passenger vehicles.

Think about it - Chevy has tons of money (and government backing) to build whatever they want to build, and instead of building a fully electric car, they still built a hybrid. Now, I will admit, it is a very sophisticated hybrid, but a hybrid car that anyone can make work - that means those who have 50 mile one way commutes to work where a Leaf isn't a practical choice.

[WDRacing]

Internal combustion + CNG = win. Why we're not there yet is beyond me.

[Dattebayo]

People like to feel good about what is going on, even if it means turning a blind eye to the truths.

Let's try not to throw the word "truths" around when what you really mean is "facts", instead...

And even though I have my own anti-hippy views about many things, let's still try to keep an open mind about alternative power sources. Just not this incarnation, obviously.

[WDRacing]

So what alternative fuel would be ok where cars are concerned?

[Dattebayo]

I guess we will know when they invent one and it takes off, right?

The way some people talk about alternative fuel/power source cars is like they are simply resisting anything other than good old gas. as someone pointed out to me once, it's hard to replace gas with anything because of the huge energy differences in the other fuel types. But it has nothing to do with what I think is "OK" or whatever...

[krash]

I am down for hydrogen combustion. It works. The problem with it is that the infrastructure is almost non-existant in the US.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The key thing to remember is that, despite having "Greenie" proponents, the big advantage of electric cars is NOT their environmental friendlines. It's that they're an alternative. The future of the automobile is only going to be a good one with we have lots of powerplant options. Electric is one of them. And the more manufacturers we have building electric cars, the more quickly we can advance that tech to a point where it becomes practical.
So, sure, the Leaf has a crummy range. But it's pushing the tech forward. So is Tesla. So is the Volt (though I maintain my frustration that it is basically an energy-laundering machine rather than a proper generator hybrid). It's driving advancements in battery technology (which benefits industries beyond automobiles). It's driving charging and generation technology (which benefits countless industries). It's driving efficiency in "luxury" features like heating, cooling, and entertainment.
Electric cars are also driving innovation in terms of replacement tech for standards we're used to relying on in internal-combustion cars. Vacuum-assisted brakes. Hydraulic power steering. Hydraulic brakes. None of these things work in an electric or generator hybrid car. Sure, everyone hates electric power steering, and regenerative brakes communicate about as well as a mute Frenchman in China. But everyone hated hydraulic power steering in sports cars at first, too (many still do!). And plenty of manufacturers still get regular power brakes wrong. At least we're starting somewhere. Can't improve something that doesn't even exist.

Same goes for hydrogen (both fuel-cell and combustion). We need more hydrodgen cars, if only to get the tech moving forward.

We need more CNG and LNG cars.

We need more propane cars.

We need nuclear cars.

We need more diesel-hydraulic cars (and especially trucks---THAT TORQUE!).

We need all of these. And we need to start building them now so that we can get the tech where it needs to be for people to actually WANT these cars.

I'm absolutely no greenie. I'd tear off my cats yesterday if I could. I don't care if I'm guzzling gas as long as I can afford it. I don't give a damn carbon emissions (in fact I think unburned, uncatalyzed hydrocarbons smell like pure joy). But that doesn't mean electric cars don't serve a purpose. They're advancing the auto industry as a whole, and a lot of the tech they churn out ends up back in the putrefied-dinosaur-ingesting beasts we all love to drive and listen to.

As an example, if you're a student of the Bob Lutz school of automobile design philosophy (which I am), the best thing about electric cars is simple: putting internal combustion engines in them. Lightweight. Strong. Aerodynamic. Bad-a**.

That's a Destino. It's a Karma with a nicer front end and a ZR1's 640hp V8 instead of heavy batteries, electric motors, and the stench of self-importance.

[gwoods]

I think a Tesla S is my next car. I like that Karma! I hate the 'hybrid' Karma.