Got what I feel is an unfair speeding ticket

[Jmoore124]

So I was driving down a road (rt28) near Manassas, V.A the friday before last. The speed limit was 45 mph, and I was following a car that was going anywhere from 35-40. I waited for the appropriate time to pass him. Fell back a little bit, gained speed in my lane and went to overtake. I think the guy actually sped up. Long story short the only oncoming car was a police officer and he said he had me by radar gun at 77 mph. He either tagged me as I was in the overtaking lane, or within 100 feet of returning to my lane (when I immediately hit my brakes to return to near the speed limit) Now i know, there is a law that states you are allowed to break the speed limit when overtaking on a two lane road in this situation, so I really dont understand how this ticket can be legitimate at all. I intent to contest it, however I dont know if I should pay a lawyer or not. I wouldnt think I would need one, but then again I have very little faith in the judicial system.

When I was younger I used to speed everywhere and try to get away with it. Since then I have slowed down. I got my CDL over the summer, and have not received a speeding ticket in over 4 years. If this ticket sticks, because I have my cdl It will be painful.
Any advice?

[Bubba1]

CDL speeding tickets are expensive indeed regardless of the state, so if I were in your shoes, I'd absolutely go to court to fight it or at least try to get it reduced to a non-moving violation. But I strongly advise consulting a local lawyer who is familiar with both Manassas and VA laws. I suppose it's probably legal to exceed the speed limit while passing, but it's also possible there are limits on the books as to how much over is allowed or is considered reasonable. 77 mph in a 45 zone could possibly be viewed as excessive or even reckless even during a pass, and a lawyer is in a better position to advise you about that issue than us. As far as claiming the driver you passed accelerated forcing you go that fast to pass him, beware a judge could easily dismiss that argument by saying you could have slowed down and postpone the pass as no one was forcing you to pass him. Good luck, and I hope you win.

[Dattebayo]

I think the guy actually sped up. Long story short the only oncoming car was a police officer and he said he had me by radar gun at 77 mph. He either tagged me as I was in the overtaking lane, or within 100 feet of returning to my lane

If you had your turn signal on when passing, then the officer would have to wait until you finished passing to tag your speed. But since no one in VA uses turn signals...

As for your CDL, you might be able to arrange with the judge to pay the fine without points if you don't have any recent points on your license.


Edit: The police car was moving when he got you with radar?

[Jmoore124]

I think the cop was still moving, that would be my assumption anyways. I know he stopped in the middle of the road at some point after I had passed but I am not sure if that is when he got me with the gun or not.

There is a clear law that states you are allowed to exceed the speed limit when making a legal pass. I just dont feel like this ticket is fair at all. I am going to fight it with as much respect and intelligence as I can. I am going to call a lawyer, but I would like people who have had to fight tickets in the past weigh in on if I should retain him, or just try to milk him for free advice.

[elwesso]

Do they have any deferral programs, even if you have a CDL? I'd think that'd be the best thing. If you didn't have a CDL, I'd just pay the ticket and move on with life.

[BusyBadger]

Virginia uses the language from the Uniform Vehicle Code, which has set absolute limits. This means exceeding the posted speed limit (PSL), whether it's safe to do so, or not is illegal.

You're also lucky not to have gotten hit with reckless driving. Lawyer up and keep your record clean and your insurance rates down.

[Rogue One]

If you've got a clean record, you can probably get a PBJ. Just keep out of trouble for 5 years.

[Jmoore124]

Do they have any deferral programs, even if you have a CDL? I'd think that'd be the best thing. If you didn't have a CDL, I'd just pay the ticket and move on with life.

I am not quite sure I know what you mean by Deferral programs. Sorry if I am being thick here.

If you've got a clean record, you can probably get a PBJ. Just keep out of trouble for 5 years.

Well, There in lies one of the problems. When I was younger, I had little to no respect for speed limits and picked up a handful of tickets. (mostly minor, with one reckless) Not sure what a PBJ is.

Virginia uses the language from the Uniform Vehicle Code, which has set absolute limits. This means exceeding the posted speed limit (PSL), whether it's safe to do so, or not is illegal.

[url=<a href="http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+46.2-862]You're" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" title="Link added by VigLink" class="vglnk"><span>http</span><span>://</span><span>leg1</span><span>.</span><span>state</span><span>.</span><span>va</span><span>.</span><span>us</span><span>/</span><span>cgi</span><span>-</span><span>bin</span><span>/</span><span>legp504</span><span>.</span><span>exe</span><span>?</span><span>000</span><span>+</span><span>cod</span><span>+</span><span>46</span><span>.</span><span>2</span><span>-</span><span>862</span><span>]</span><span>You</span><span>'</span><span>re</span></a> also lucky not to have gotten hit with reckless driving[/url]. Lawyer up and keep your record clean and your insurance rates down.

The ticket is considered reckless. Can you clarify how the 'absolute limit' law pertains to this situation?



This is what I have found as far as laws pertaining to passing on a one lane road.
RCW 46.61.425(1): "[A] person following a vehicle driving at less than the legal maximum speed and desiring to pass such vehicle may exceed the speed limit, subject to the provisions of RCW 46.61.120 on highways having only one lane of traffic in each direction, at only such a speed and for only such a distance as is necessary to complete the pass with a reasonable margin of safety."

[BusyBadger]

Absolute means it's not okay to exceed the PSL for any reason, save an emergency situation that forces you to do so to avoid serious injury.

In brief, your exceeding the PSL to pass another vehicle won't wash with the court.

[Bubba1]

This is what I have found as far as laws pertaining to passing on a one lane road.
RCW 46.61.425(1): "[A] person following a vehicle driving at less than the legal maximum speed and desiring to pass such vehicle may exceed the speed limit, subject to the provisions of RCW 46.61.120 on highways having only one lane of traffic in each direction, at only such a speed and for only such a distance as is necessary to complete the pass with a reasonable margin of safety."

hmmm. I'm no lawyer, but the above reads like there might be a little room for interpretation. The big question is whether passing at more than 30+mph over PSL was necessary for you to maintain a margin of safety or if that was considered excessive/unsafe. If you think about it impartially, the more likely interpretation would be that 30+mph over PSL is excessive. But it's still worth fighting in court.it all depends on the judge.

Oh, and when I first read "PBJ", I naturally thought peanut butter and jelly. But it actually means "probation before judgement", which is a legal slap on the wrist occasionally offered to first time offenders of non-violent crimes. I'm not quite sure it'll apply to speeding tickets, especially for someone with previous speeding tickets but it's something that could be discussed with your lawyer as part of a plea bargain strategy.

[BusyBadger]

This is what I have found as far as laws pertaining to passing on a one lane road.
A RCW 46.61.425(1): "[A] person following a vehicle driving at less than the legal maximum speed and desiring to pass such vehicle may exceed the speed limit, subject to the provisions of RCW 46.61.120 on highways having only one lane of traffic in each direction, at only such a speed and for only such a distance as is necessary to complete the pass with a reasonable margin of safety."

hmmm. I'm no lawyer, but the above reads like there might be a little room for interpretation.

Not in this case, RCW 46.61.120 & 46.61.425 are Washington state statutes.

[elwesso]

I know in many states they have what's called a deferral program, where basically you end up paying more than the actual ticket is for, but if you don't get a ticket within a certain period of time (usually a year), no points go on your license...

I did a little research, and it appears they don't have a deferral program like other states. However, it does appear you can get the points removed from your record by doing a 1-day safe driving course. In most cases, the ticket still shows up, but you don't have the points... Not sure how much good that does you?

In my experience, I haven't seen insurance go up because of speeding tickets, so I just pay the ticket and call it a day.

In your case, if you decide to go to court, I wouldn't try and fight back... Ultimately, you WERE speeding, and it's your word against the cops. I would go in there and basically explain politely what your situation is, and maybe there can be some sort of fee agreed upon that would not affect your CDL.

[Bubba1]

[
Not in this case, RCW 46.61.120 & 46.61.425 are Washington state statutes.

Ah, but perhaps VA has a more vaguely written law that will give OP some wiggle room.

[Jmoore124]

Yeah I did not realize that was a Washington state law.

I am going to contact a local traffic lawyer shortly and see what his take on the matter is. I will agree with you, analyzing the situation after the fact that 77 in a 45 does seem excessive to pass someone going under the speed limit. I just know, it did not feel that way during the moment, and I had no intention of thrill seeking, or intentionally speeding. Whole situation just kind of blows.

[BusyBadger]

Here's a couple of links you might want to check out...

http://www.avvo.com/free-legal-advice/S ... ket?loc=va

http://attorney.motorists.org/virginia/

Good luck!

[Hijacker]

I know in many states they have what's called a deferral program, where basically you end up paying more than the actual ticket is for, but if you don't get a ticket within a certain period of time (usually a year), no points go on your license...

I did a little research, and it appears they don't have a deferral program like other states. However, it does appear you can get the points removed from your record by doing a 1-day safe driving course. In most cases, the ticket still shows up, but you don't have the points... Not sure how much good that does you?

In my experience, I haven't seen insurance go up because of speeding tickets, so I just pay the ticket and call it a day.

In your case, if you decide to go to court, I wouldn't try and fight back... Ultimately, you WERE speeding, and it's your word against the cops. I would go in there and basically explain politely what your situation is, and maybe there can be some sort of fee agreed upon that would not affect your CDL.

That would be the driver improvement program (DIP). I took it when I was 16 or 17 to have a reckless ticket wiped off my record. It was court ordered, however, not a suggestion by me. It's possible, depending on the judge and how lenient they feel that day, to suggest taking the DIP in lieu of paying the fine, but they have to be on board. The judge will have to nullify the original infraction and order you to enter the program. When I took it, it was a week long. An hour or two a day and in the end we had to write a report. There was no seat time, just boring lectures. It could have changed since then, though as that was 16 years ago.

Also, any speeding over the limit by 20 MPH or greater is considered reckless in Virginia, Wes. Which really sucks. A lot of times, if you're nice to the officer, they can knock it down to 19 over to get around that nasty hangup. But being a reckless means it hits the premiums a bit harder, and it's worth more points on the record.

Also, I thought with reckless tickets, you were required to see the judge. It's considered a pretty serious offense in Virginia, even though it's a catch all type of ticket. Officers can write them willy nilly for things like "Didn't signal lane change in traffic." if they feel like sticking it to you.

As for the OP, if you want to properly fight this, you're gonna have to lawyer up. There's no two ways about it. Playing lawyer on your own via internet comments will get you nowhere. The judge will allow you to speak, but more than likely will dismiss anything you have to say as his mind will be made up for efficiency's sake. Given the typical docket size of most judges (and I can imagine how big the docket is in traffic court in NOVA), judges tend to not give a s*** and just want you out of their courtroom so they can get to the next person on their speed dating list. At least with a real lawyer, he'll have to slow down and maybe possibly potentially listen.

Either or, I wish you the best of luck. Case law is your friend if you want to do research. The VA Code of Law can say whatever it wants, but true enforcement lies in prior interpretation. Find a recent case of someone in a similar situation that was pleaded down or out.

[skydragoness]

I'm friends with some younger guys at a local shop that have told me some stories about the trouble they've gotten into in MD/VA--FAR worse situations than your current one. (IIRC he was caught doing 90-100 in VA, and what made it even worse was he was from out of state).

He got a lawyer and was able to keep his license (albeit paying some fines and lawyer fees), I have no clue how but if he managed then you should do very well considering the circumstances. If it's been years since your last ticket that will look good. Good luck.

[float_6969]

Get a Lawyer. I've had a ZILLION tickets. After I started getting a Lawyer when I got them, I stopped getting points. They would ALWAYS get moved down to a moving violation. My guy would walk in with a stack of tickets and sit with the DA and they would basically "haggle" all of them down to lesser charges with higher fines. I tried to duplicate this myself and it failed miserably. Get in with a Lawyer that does a lot of traffic stuff and you'll be golden.