Gore's Rebellion

[confedup]

For a while, it was a standard-issue Al Gore jeremiad, with calls for everything from installing solar panels in Darfur (seriously) to legal action against "the carbon lobby" for denying global warming (ditto). But then Mr. Gore really got going and told his disciples to head -- literally -- to the barricades to "stop" coal.

Speaking last Wednesday on a celebrity panel in New York, the Nobel Prize Laureate proclaimed: "If you're a young person looking at the future of this planet and looking at what is being done right now, and not done, I believe we have reached the stage where it is time for civil disobedience to prevent the construction of new coal plants that do not have carbon capture and sequestration." He added, "clean coal does not exist."

Mr. Gore didn't explain how far he thinks his young acolytes should go in their rage against the coal-burning machines that provide about 50% of U.S. electricity. Sit-ins? Marches against power plants? How about trashing power lines: What could he mean by "civil disobedience"?

As it happens, Mr. Gore's brand of anticoal radicalism is quickly becoming the liberal consensus. The greens loathe coal because of greenhouse gases -- and have succeeded in making new coal plants nearly impossible to build. More than 60 have been canceled in the last year alone. Democratic Governor Kathleen Sebelius is waging a high-profile campaign against new coal plants in Kansas, and only last week Joe Biden seemed to endorse a coal ban.

Perhaps James Hansen has also paid Mr. Gore a visit at Walden Pond. The NASA scientist and influential global warming swami recently testified on behalf of the "Kingsnorth Six," Greenpeace activists who caused £30,000 of criminal damage at an English coal utility while attempting to shut it down. Mr. Hansen argued they had a "lawful excuse" because of the imminence of climate doom; they were acquitted. Coming from figures who hold the public trust, such rhetoric is wildly irresponsible, not least for the fanaticism and even violence it could incite.

Mr. Gore's blessing is even more bizarre because it defeats the cause that it claims to champion on its own terms. New U.S. coal plants use modern scrubbing technology, which means less traditional air pollution. They're also far more efficient -- that is, they get more energy out of the same amount of coal (i.e., carbon) compared to older models. Often this results in power companies mothballing parts of a more carbon-intensive fleet.

Take a fracas in North Carolina, where Duke Energy is trying to build a new coal-burning plant. The 800-megawatt Cliffside project has proved hugely controversial; Duke CEO Jim Rogers told us that his home had been vandalized. Yet when regulators approved Cliffside, they noted that the state-of-the-art upgrade will actually reduce environmental costs because four aging, less efficient boilers will be shut down. Overall, sulfur dioxide emissions will fall by 80% a year, nitrogen oxide by 50%, and the entire project is carbon neutral while producing more electricity to meet increasing demand.

Mr. Gore seems to think this is a bad trade. Meanwhile, China is set to build 800,000 megawatts of new coal generation over the next eight years. That's 1,000 Cliffsides -- or more than two-and-a-half times the size of America's total installed coal capacity, with none of our environmental guardrails. Even if every U.S. coal plant were razed to the ground tomorrow, it wouldn't make any difference for global CO2 while China expands.

We look forward to seeing Mr. Gore take his "civil disobedience" against coal to, say, Shanxi province. He'd better bring a lot to read.

http://online.wsj.com/article/...s_wsj

[AZhitman]

ALgore, is, quite simply, a charlatan on the highest order.

Anyone who actually fell for his nonsense and cast a ballot for him should probably drown themselves in a 5-gallon bucket.

Seriously, how much science has to disprove his blather before he shuts up?

How much hypocrisy can he foist on us before the media pulls its collective head out of his a$$?

I hope someone vandalizes his Gulfstream (right after he forgets to pay the insurance premium).

[marlin29311]

I hope someone vandalizes his Gulfstream (right after he forgets to pay the insurance premium).

You forgot that the fuel that Gore puts in that is specifically ordered clean from the middle east....(insert sarcasm here)

This is becoming downright absurd. I agree with the fact that the newer plants are making more energy with the same amount of coal and have less emissions (i believe we should be as efficent as possible and not try to create more emissions than we need to), but quite frankly if people are lining up outside of a plant and causing physical damage than something is absoultely wrong.

People are always talking about how you have to know your stance and research everything to be sure what you are saying is correct, but yet these people blindly follow a goon and do whatever he says, even when it's bordering on illegal activity.

So what should we do - build up more nuclear power plants? That's the only real viable power source to power the nation. Sure hydroelectric and wind power are nice ideas, but they do not bring in enough power to help offset the vast amount of energy that is created through coal. Solar is becoming a much more user-friendly option (especially with people installing panels on their roofs) but this can be very expensive as well. Solar fields are also difficult to maintain and can only be placed in certian areas. So if we are building more nuclear, we are increasing our target risk from terrorlst attacks, as well as radiation issues. I for one do not want spent uranium rods sitting underground near my house....

Al Gore makes me

[dusred]

He needs a glass bellybutton for sure.

Nuclear power is the way of the future.

Ol Al Gor aught to be focusing on stopping Volcano's or something. . . they say that one Volcano puts out more pollution into the environment when they blow then humans can in hundreds of years.

Remember, before the Ol Christopher Columbus came along the Indians didn't have Nuclear power or anything like that; they burnt wood (and coal?) and they did it for thousands of years and look. . . the world has not ended yet.

Morons. I'm sure glad he didn't become President.

[96Qowner]

Remember, before the Ol Christopher Columbus came along the Indians didn't have Nuclear power or anything like that; they burnt wood (and coal?) and they did it for thousands of years and look. . . the world has not ended yet.

Don't forget all those buffalo belching methane into the atmosphere, not to mention all the undrained swamps doing the same thing. Algore must be pleased that we killed all the buffalo and drained all the swamps, huh?

Also, now we kill our cattle before they get old, like the wild animals they replaced, and if humans are any indication, old animals fart more than young ones, right?

How's that for quack science?

Morons. I'm sure glad he didn't become President.

Speaking of quack, if it walks like a moron and quacks like a moron ...

[Jesda]

Al Gore is a genius. Carbon credits -- he found a way to charge people for existing! Its the most brilliant scheme ever.

[ADDirishboy]

Nuclear power is the way of the future.

While I don't agree we Gore, he is going in the right direction, but for the wrong reason's. Yes, Coal is pollutant. Is it as terrible as Gore would have you believe? No. BUT! We are all overlooking the real problem with coal. Human lives. How many people die a year due to coal mining accident's? 7500. 6000 of which are from China alone.

How do we stop deaths? We need to get off of coal power and start making new nuclear power plants. Plain and simple.

Ol Al Gor aught to be focusing on stopping Volcano's or something. . . they say that one Volcano puts out more pollution into the environment when they blow then humans can in hundreds of years.

One volcanic eruption actually spews out more pollutants into the air than the human race has since our birth almost 11,000 years ago. We haven't had enough time to do any significant damage to the environment.

Al Gore is a genius. Carbon credits -- he found a way to charge people for existing! Its the most brilliant scheme ever.

Al Gore is a genius. He sells bull**** for a living. And people actually BELIVE him. It's disgusting.

[dusred]

We are all overlooking the real problem with coal. Human lives. How many people die a year due to coal mining accident's? 7500. 6000 of which are from China alone.

It's not like people are being forced to mine coal. They get paid a very fair wage and when they go into the mine they are full aware of the dangers they are getting into. It is their choice.

There was a coal mine that collapsed here in Utah about a year ago where I think 7 men were killed. All of them knew that being killed in a collapse was a danger they faced.

Nuclear power is the way of the future because it is more efficient, not because less people are killed. A Nuclear meltdown endangers far more people then a mine collapse therefore it is a higher risk way to produce energy then burning coal.

[96Qowner]

For future readers, a couple links to past threads on the subject of Global Warming and where to invest for future energy needs:

Poll, Is Global Warming real?

Environmental thinking and Nuclear Power

[ADDirishboy]

It's not like people are being forced to mine coal. They get paid a very fair wage and when they go into the mine they are full aware of the dangers they are getting into. It is their choice.

There was a coal mine that collapsed here in Utah about a year ago where I think 7 men were killed. All of them knew that being killed in a collapse was a danger they faced.

Nuclear power is the way of the future because it is more efficient, not because less people are killed. A Nuclear meltdown endangers far more people then a mine collapse therefore it is a higher risk way to produce energy then burning coal.

I'm aware that they know the risks they are getting into. I'm a fireman.

And I never said that nuclear power was better solely because it will save lives. it is better in almost every way than coal is. The reason I brought up the life saving part was because people seem to not think about it. Yes, coal miners know of the dangers they face. But why put that many people in harms way when we can have a more effective and efficient source of energy that won't kill as many people?

[AZhitman]

+1 for more nuclear plants.

I don't care about the dangerous employment issue - Hell, commercial fishing is more dangerous.

[hsckris]

[ADDirishboy]

^

"Half man, half bear, half pig"

"what is that? some sort of 'bear-pig-man?""No you idiot it's man-bear-pig!"

super, super cereal

[ishkabibble]

It's not like people are being forced to mine coal. They get paid a very fair wage and when they go into the mine they are full aware of the dangers they are getting into. It is their choice.

Ah. If you or a loved one ever dies on the job, it was your/their choice. Don't expect any sympathy from us. After all, it was their/your choice to work.

We need a bigger icon.

[dusred]

Ah. If you or a loved one ever dies on the job, it was your/their choice. Don't expect any sympathy from us. After all, it was their/your choice to work.

We need a bigger icon.

Nico is probably the last place I would go for sympathy .

Actually, I had 4 loved ones die in a freak plane crash several years ago. One guy was the pilot was a good friend of mine and a good friend of my Father. We all knew that he had a high risk job and could crash and be killed on any flight.

High risk jobs and death are part of life. You deal with it. That's why people who work those high risk jobs get paid more then most jobs pay and most have excellent benefits. The pay/benefits offset the high risk of the job.

Now, I lets get back on topic here or else start another thread on the subject of "High Risk Jobs".

[Jesda]

Ah. If you or a loved one ever dies on the job, it was your/their choice. Don't expect any sympathy from us. After all, it was their/your choice to work.

We need a bigger icon.

This is why people in my family go to college. Keeps them from dying in mine shafts. If you choose to be a coal miner, you already know the risks and rewards.

[HashiriyaS14]

If you choose to be a coal miner, you already know the risks and rewards.

I don't think there are a lot of people who "choose" between being a coal miner or going to college.

If you have the option to do B, you're probably not going to consider A.

And to the response that "everyone can work hard, get a scholarship, and go to college", the answer is that while financial assistance can appear to be equal-opportunity, not everyone is necessarily intelligent enough to qualify for it, or for that matter to succeed in college.

Sheer innate ability, or a lack thereof, precludes many people from considering college (and many other paths) as an alternative, like it or not.

And sure we can issue some flippant reply like "euthanize them", or "deport them", or "let them be poor", but those range from the obviously absurd to the comically naive (i.e. assuming that strife in the lower end of society will not affect the upper end, which has been demonstrated as patently untrue across history).

Thus, we need to find a way to deal with the problem. IMO, the solution would be more vocational and trade schools, perhaps even as a part of the public school system, but many won't like this idea as, while it solves a huge problem, it also costs money in the short run.

Obviously, I'm not really speaking about coal mining in particular. If you can mine coal, you can probably fish for tuna or drive a truck or do other less-dangerous jobs. I was replying to the idea that the alternative is "to go to college", as if this is something that simply has not occurred to people.

[audtatious]

This is why people in my family go to college. Keeps them from dying in mine shafts. If you choose to be a coal miner, you already know the risks and rewards.

What is the chances of being killed in a coal mine vs those of being killed driving to the "office"? While I'm sure being killed in a mine is higher based on sheer numbers comparison alone, it does not mean you can't be killed working in a office. There is risk in everything and, as you stated, people already know the risks and rewards yet take them anyway.

[audtatious]

And to the response that "everyone can work hard, get a scholarship, and go to college", the answer is that while financial assistance can appear to be equal-opportunity, not everyone is necessarily intelligent enough to qualify for it, or for that matter to succeed in college.

You mean the 40%+ people who drop out of school can't qualify for college?

Working hard at an education gives you far more _possibility_ of succeeding in life, getting into college/community college/Vo-Tech and not having to accept a job as a cow butcher or working in a coal mine.

There are no guarantees for anything but that should not stop you from working hard in the first place.....

[Jesda]

Coal mining pays well and offers extensive benefits for the family. Why? Because its risky. Same for fishing -- its dangerous, but you can work 3-6 months and make a year's living.

Many people, including many intelligent people I know, have chosen not to get educated because they lack the will. Anyone who doesn't have the capacity or tolerance for college-level courses can always learn to be a licensed plumber, contractor, trucker, etc. All relatively safe and highly respected trades.

You do -not- have to mine coal, and it pays exceptionally well for a reason.

People have choices, and they decline to exercise most of them. If you seek the rewards from working in a coal mine, you accept the risks. Period.

[hsckris]

I don't think there are a lot of people who "choose" between being a coal miner or going to college.

If you have the option to do B, you're probably not going to consider A.

And to the response that "everyone can work hard, get a scholarship, and go to college", the answer is that while financial assistance can appear to be equal-opportunity, not everyone is necessarily intelligent enough to qualify for it, or for that matter to succeed in college.

Sheer innate ability, or a lack thereof, precludes many people from considering college (and many other paths) as an alternative, like it or not.

And sure we can issue some flippant reply like "euthanize them", or "deport them", or "let them be poor", but those range from the obviously absurd to the comically naive (i.e. assuming that strife in the lower end of society will not affect the upper end, which has been demonstrated as patently untrue across history).

Thus, we need to find a way to deal with the problem. IMO, the solution would be more vocational and trade schools, perhaps even as a part of the public school system, but many won't like this idea as, while it solves a huge problem, it also costs money in the short run.

This problem is a natural occurence in or consequence of a modern economy. There will always be ditch diggers, janitors, or *insert low income job here.* IMO equal opportunity is the best anyone can hope for. If you have the opportunity, you cannot complain about a lack of success.

As far as more trade schools and what not -- where I'm from there are a TON of programs where you can graduate from high school with a good trade. Examples? Nursing, auto mechanics or body work, electrician, plumber, etc. All you have to do is sign up for it, you don't even have to pay any more $ that you would at regular public school (other than additional fees, such as a shop fee for example).

I don't think that availability of options is the problem. I think the "problem" is the people you are talking about are too unmotivated, or otherwise ignorant to address their future. As I said, at least where I'm from, those programs and options already exist.

[APEXi240]

What is the chances of being killed in a coal mine vs those of being killed driving to the "office"?

While I understand your point, you made a stupid comparison because most people have to drive to the coal mine as well.

[audtatious]

No, not a stupid point at all. My point was that doing anything can be dangerous and you can get killed. You just obviously missed the whole point.

[dusred]

While I understand your point, you made a stupid comparison because most people have to drive to the coal mine as well.

[APEXi240]

While I understand your point

How did I miss your point when I specifically stated I understood it? You stated an example that was incorrect. I did not miss your point, you did not express it correctly.

You tried to imply that the drive to work has an inherent danger of causing death, which is absolutely true, possibly at a higher rate than working in a mine. That is understandable, but you are including an activity that is required of both jobs (in the office, as well as the mine).

A more apt example would be stating something like, someone who works in an office in California has just as much a chance of dying at work from an earthquake, as someone does from the collapse of a mine shaft.

[audtatious]

Not necessarily as those poor coal mines may walk or take their mule to the job site. I was making a wide point and I didn't feel the need to expound on it. You got the point but want to complain anyway? Knock yourself out. The point still stands regardless of how you want to correct it.

[APEXi240]

Not necessarily as those poor coal mines may walk

Coal mines can walk?

Again, I was not discussing the point you made, I was discussing the example you used. Of course your point "stands", I was not even addressing that.

Just proofread, that's all.

[AZhitman]

WTF does any of this have to do with the indisputable fact that Algore is a charlatan and a clown who has foisted his Chicken Little brand of fearmongering chicanery on an entire generation of Americans?

As far as I'm concerned, he should be hanged for crimes against humanity...

The ideal dictionary would use him as an example of the word "hypocrite".

[marlin29311]

Now that we're back on topic...

I'm still mad about Al Gore. I cannot believe how the media buys into all this crap when there is hard and proven evidence that shows global warming is not real.

Makes me remember hearing my friend tell me about how a bio professor at my school was spewing all this crap about global warming and making people watch Gore's "inconvienvent fallacy." My friend pointed out all of this stuff and the professor had nothing to say...

[AZhitman]

Even if it WAS real, he's clearly in it for all the wrong reasons, and not a good example...

Anyone who hops a Gulfstream to whisk 3 passengers cross-country, then leaves his limo idling with the AC on outside while giving a PAID talk on MMGW should be drawn and quartered.

He and his spouse are both morons.

Those of you who oppose censorship, remember Tipper Gore's crusades in the 80's / early 90's? Yep. Thank her for the PMRC and all that hogwash.

A TRUE Democrat.