Good riddance to my Q45, a real dog

[NWilner]

After an unpleasant year with it, my 94 Q45 is going, replaced with a BMW 740i. It has been a major disappointment in performance and reliability. I have replaced a great deal of stuff (front end, driveshaft, fuel pump and controller, mass flow sensor) yet the car is, in its heart, a dog. The suspension is vintage Buick, the trans acts like its clueless, the idle is poor, the trunk is a complete joke for a big car (a mystery why?), the car has vibrations no one can find, lacks directional stability at speed, and eats gas. Full throttle off the line stays even with Windstar Vans, if I'm lucky. No one stocks a receiver trailer hitch (so few Q45's on the road?). Parts are much more expensive than those for my BMW's, which are in a different world in performance and handling compared to this car.

I've enjoyed this forum and wish everyone the best. I guess I'll never know if I got a lemon or all of these Q's are dogs.

[Touchdown038]

Wow, sounds like you had something EXTREMELY wrong with your Q... to say the least.

[soilwork240sx]

well it sounds like you did get a lemon seeing as how most cars ARENT supposed to run like that. good choice with the bmw though. maybe when you get a chance try to drive the same year q in great condition and let us know if your view has changed.

[maxnix]

If you read very much of the forum, you would know why there are no trailer hitches, why the trunk is small, and that most of the problems you have indicate a wrecked and neglected car.

I haven't found a 740i or A8 that can stay with me on the highway, and I have a "slow" year.

[PalmerWMD]

It's clear that the car has some real mechanical problems.

As for the supsension it is very nearly the same supension as on a 740.

Same kind of components simliar dimension similar wear rates.If your suspesnion felt bad it nliekly need upper links, tie-end rods shocks or all of teh above.

Clearly the previous owner didnt maintain the car.

I wish you luck and enjoyment with your new car though.

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

Also Q's are known for teir great directional stability at hi speeds.I have taken Q's up tp 130mph.

Once out west ran a Q relaxed between 90-100mph for almot 200 miles.

An unstable car eould ahve been too much stress to do that.

And that Q wasnt nearly as well maintained as my Q's since.

Fred..

[MattB]

Yeah, I think your Q was a lemon...

[elwesso]

I think you are expecting too much..... You cant expect a used car to be in perfect condition, especially a 10 yr old luxuary vehicle...... How does a car go from 50k new to like 6000....... Its not all depreciation..... If you want it to be good, then you gotta put some $$$ into it...... besides, getting the Q back to good condition is going to be cheaper than getting/maintaining a BMW......

And also, you cant expect reliability from parts that are designed to wear!!!!

[greg_atlanta]

No lemon, just sounds like it was abused by previous owner. Some of the failure items are typical, though. Having that much go wrong in one year means it functioned for several years as a go-kart.... go here, go there, go home. (If it starts and runs, don't worry!)

[NWilner]

Thanks guys. I guess its just a lemon. The local Infiniti dealer, cursed be he, swears there's nothing wrong with it!

BTW, why so small a trunk and why no hitch? I don't recall hearing why.

[AZhitman]

No hitch because the car has an isolated rear subframe - It isn't a truck. And the suspension was WAY ahead of its time.

Trunk is actually not a bad size given the overall dimensions of the car. Of course, if you bought a Q expecting Crown Vic trunk space, you're gonna be disappointed.

Most of the well-maintained here 94-95 Q's will still run in the 15's, and I've done 130 in mine for 20-30 minutes (and felt like I could take both hands off the wheel).

Sounds like you had a bad egg and that its first owner was NOT kind to her at all. Dealer doesn't always know best 9I'm learning that lesson as well).

AZQ45 (Jed Lusich) made the same exact swap you're doing. After a year, he reports some pros, some cons. You should email him and compare notes. The 7-series are just as pricey to maintain, but I hope you enjoy it.

[maxnix]

BTW, why so small a trunk and why no hitch? I don't recall hearing why.

The fuel tank is located in a steel cage between the trunk and the back of the rear passenger's seat. It is one of the safest, if not the safest of any production automobile.

Good luck with the 740i. Do read the relevant boards as there are some years to avoid over others.

Hopefully you will get to ride in a well maintained Q45 one day.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t

Discover the power of the button!

[tkd_q45]

NWilner- I certainly understand your frustration - 'tis the problem faced with older luxury cars. But to replace it with a 740i? Your kidding, right?

I hope you don't expect your BMW to be any better. German cars ARE NOT the paragon of dependability! Not to mention all the stupid electronic issues they have. If easy ownership is what you have in mind, get something that has a better track record with reliability and cost of ownership.

From what you've said about your Q I'd say it's not the norm. Yes a 94 does not have the handling of the previous years but the transmission should be excellent as far as response/drivability and acceration on these cars is excellent. Maybe your transmission is F'ed up. Bottom line is your Q is not representative of the breed.

[Jeff Williams]

I see that you have 2 other BMW's listed as drives. They are great cars. I wouldn;'t mind an M3, or even a 633CSi in my garage.

I understand your frustration with your Q. My car was in need of TLC, when I bought it, but I got it for $2,300.00 This has allowed me to put $3,000.00 in the car, and not be bothered. Probably, with new struts, tension rods, upper links, a transmission flush, fuel filter, plugs, fuel rail flush, replace a few sensors, (possibly you have a problem wiht the precats), TB cleaning, alignment, and possibly a front strut tower brace, the car will perform as well as others on this site.

I have not seen a 740i run any quicker, or faster than my '94 Q. My car is very steady at high speeds, (and I need new struts).

When my Mass Airflow sensor was dirty, the car ran like crap. All I had to do was give it a good cleaning. I couldn't tell if the engine was even running, unless I looked at the tach. When I put in new plugs, the car woke up. The Strut tower brace made it handle like it was a 2 door coupe. The struts will make it corner like it is on rails (or so I hear).

I bet if you put $3,000.00 into the car, you would be impressed with the performance.

The part I hate, is that you bought the car, and paid foit, under the impression that all this stuff was in proper working order. If you get a chance, drive another Q from the same year, or 2, to see just how different the car could be.

Good luck!

[elwesso]

Im sure there is someone in the jacksonville area that would take a look at your car for you to recommend certain repairs!!!!

The reason you think your car is a dog is because it is barely running!!!

[90Q45blue]

Are you selling your Q? If so how much?

Nick

[AZQ45]

My Q was pretty close to my current 740 as far as acceleration/power. The BMW has a 5 speed. My 97 740 runs 7.3ish 0-60s at 2000 feet elevation. My 91 Q was a couple tenths slower (130k). Similar power/weight when you compare pure numbers. BMW redline 6000RPM. Q 7ish.

740 won't run away from a Q (and visa versa)...99s with VANOS/sport models will, most likely. BMWs speed limited to 128MPH.

BMW will out brake and handle. Don't know why if suspension is same. I do note brake rotors are much bigger on BMW.

E-mail me if you have any BMW 740 ?s. I just did a driveshaft and there are other 740 quirks you might be interested in.

Check roadfly.com, e38 board.

PS. I lurk here as I still think g35 down the road...!

[elwesso]

Id be interested about the 7 series quirks...... I have always had one of those in the back of my mind..... id get a 750..... Ahh, the magic of 12cy!!!

[AZQ45]

Quirks/Issues:

-Displays go out (pixels): Instrument cluster, diagnostic display and radio/HVAC controls.-Oil pump bolts not torqued right. Creates a risk of one or more backing out and falling in to pan. Worst case is as it falls, it hits the chain drive and bounces in to the bottom end of the engine. This is easy enough to rectify - under $200.-Seats develop a 'click'. Track wear.-Sunroof whistles with interior slide open. Updated gasket available.-Upgraded DSP stereo sucks-Similar rubber suspension wear parts; control arms, thrust arms, trans mounts, etc.-I ate up a driveshaft CV. Needed new propeller shaft. Does not appear to be a systemic problem, though.-Valve cover gaskets need replacing every couple of years.-No dipstick to check trans fluid (lifetime fluid).-Guaranteed to break a radiator neck...plastic.-Power steering hoses leak.-Burned bulb/low pad lights frequently show up on diagnostic 'check system' (I have not encountered yet)-Catalytic converters rattle (80k federal warranty had BMW replacing)

Pros:-Trannys seem bulletproof.-8+ quarts of engine oil.-13+ quarts trans fluid.-Silky smooth engine.-No injector issues.-Most all parts seem cheaper. Go figure. (i.e. injector $65)-No chain guide issues!-With the exception of the cupholders, interior finish/material is exceptional (I think). 750 even better (i.e. leather dash)

Lots of the quirks/issues sound familiar, right!

[Jesda]

I think the quality problems with german cars as of late might have something to do with a rash of merger mania. Then again, Ford seems to be able to pull off a series of mergers while increasing overall quality just slightly.

[reggiegsd]

Well, this is interesting. I dumped a '95 740 to get a '94 Q. I did it because the Q outran the 740 and the 740 was way too fragile. I haven't missed that Bimmer one little bit.

[AZQ45]

That is a pretty broad statement. Wouldn't you rather re-torque your oil pump bolts ($200) to prevent a possible problem than have to replace plastic guides ($1500) to avoid a certain catastrophe? I would also submit Asian cars have their problems....heard about the Honda transmission problems? It actually impacted their earnings.

I would rate my 97 740 very high in quality. Don't know much about Audi or MB, but the A8 and SL look pretty damn nice!

What does differ significantly with the German cars is design philosophy. Differences here can easily be assigned away as a quality issue. It is my understanding, and I have only heard this anecdotally, that German designers are not as noise sensitive as American or Asian designers. I guarantee you the Lexus is way quieter than my BMW. However, with the BMW - noise and all, you feel more connected to the car. The AC is noiser, you can hear some differential whine and the buttons are somewhat mysterious. Again....design differences.

My BMW is in excellent shape and well maintained....but I don't think it idles as smoothly as my old Q. Another design difference? I never saw a BMW ad with champagne glasses balanced on a running engine...Probably wouldn't work!

I look at the major systems on the German cars and marvel at their durability. Personally, I attribute this to the large fluid capacities and over-engineered running gear. Especially the diesel engines. Accessory equipment...well.......

[AZQ45]

hi reggiesd.

Your 95 740 had a 4.0 and the nikasil sulpher problems (short block failure with US pump gas). 1996 went to the 4.4 which is on par with the Qs 4.5. I think a Q would dust the pre-96 740, hang with the 96-98, and lag behind the VANOS 99-2001.

[EWT]

That is a pretty broad statement. Wouldn't you rather re-torque your oil pump bolts ($200) to prevent a possible problem than have to replace plastic guides ($1500) to avoid a certain catastrophe? I would also submit Asian cars have their problems....heard about the Honda transmission problems? It actually impacted their earnings.

Assuming you're referring to the post above yours, chain guides aren't an issue on 94s. I considered getting a used 740 while before buying Q #2. I liked the handling of the 740 better (although with the addition of Tokico shocks and an "a" rear roll bar, the difference isn't that big), and the bigger backseat of the iL would have been nice, but couldn't justify the additoinal cost and they seemed to have a lot of problems and "issues" from reading BMW forums. 740s are definitely nice cars though. If age/mileage comparable Q45s weren't available for substantially less, I probably would have bought one. The only problem I've had so far in 18 months of ownership on Q #2 is an A/C belt tensioner that went bad. My first Q was a 93, and I had to replace an A/C compressor, water pump, and the electrical part that controls fan speed in almost 5 years of ownership.

It sounds like the original poster got unlucky on a used car purchase. I don't know how many of the issues with the car were detectable when it was purchased, but it usually takes a lot of looking to find a good one. Don't be in a hurry to buy one when you start looking and make sure you run a carfax/infiniti service history on potential cars. One Q45 that was exactly what I was looking for came into an Infiniti dealer 4 quarts low on oil. I had to spend 6 months+ looking for both of my current cars before finding the "right" car.

Edit:I just ran into a list of "common problems" I saved from a 740 forum. Most of these items have already been mentioned, but there's a little more detail on some of them:

Catalytic convertor problems, rattles especially when cold, no doubt have already been replaced at least once. Information display missing elements from the LED display. This is really a problem with the display drivers however, it will manifest itself as missing elements, some may refer to as missing "pixels". This will be true of console and drivers display. Improper evaporator drainage- there was a fix for this but if owner did not reference "gurgling sound" than it was not fixed. Many dealers would have passed this off as "normal operation". When in a fresh air input mode, i.e. not recirc., a vacuum can be created that does not allow proper drainage, and as a result will hear a gurgling noise. Systems are also notorious for developing bacteria growth on evaporator, very difficult to cure, depending on climate. Top radiator neck - A chronic problem, ignored by BMW and Behr. This will happen between 50K and 100K miles. About a $400 hit if you do the work, double for the dealer. This is not an "if" it is a "when". Stepper motors - Poorly designed vents that warp and distort over time, putting a bind on the stepper motors that operate them. Frequently results in non-operating stepper motor. May or may not be recognized. No major problems with drive train, can eat up brakes/rotors depending on driving style. It is a heavy car! Auxilary electric condensor fan/shaft/blade assembly is a weak point, as is water pump bearing/seal. There was a recall to replace front springs and perches on some cars.

[Jesda]

AZQ45:

I should have been more clear. When I say "As of late" I am referring to the last two to three years. Germans have always given the driver a very well controlled and connected feel to the car and pavement, but the dilemma has always been long-term reliability and expensive, sometimes frequent repairs, at least in the last couple years. Its hard to read a 30k review of an Audi (A8L, Car and Deiver Aug 2003) or MB (Automobile Magazine, long-term review of C-class wagon) without the reviewer mentioning frequent visits to the dealer for repairs and miscellaneous quality problems.

Then of course there's JD Powers dependability rankings, which put MB and Audi way below even mainstream brands like Ford and Dodge. Lexus and Infiniti are at the top, while BMW and Porsche are still far up there.

I think it may be BMW's consistency and absence of tumultuous mergers that keeps quality more stable, slowly improving, and predictable compared to its brothers in Bavaria.

I really dont miss my Benz. I really dont.

-Jesda

[elwesso]

The only thing I would like having a benz is this:

A really hot chick and I were talking, and she asked me what kind of car I had...... I said I had an Infiniti Q45, and she said "oh, ive never heard of that".... you say MBZ, and they thing BIG $$$.....

Thats about all their good for, IMO

[NWilner]

Well, I'm glad to see all the remarks from my original post.

Just for everyone's interest, here is the saga of this Q.

On the strength of the specs on paper, bought this 94 for 6k. Absolutely perfect cosmetics, still smells new. Interior 10/10. 85k miles. Wierd color (like lavender or purple-brown or something). An immediate trip to the dealer brought these:

80K or something total service --- 1k Brakes/rotors -- .7k front struts, bushings, many front end parts etc. -- 2k

Still seemed way underdamped, rides like a Lincoln with high mileage.

Persistent vibration at speed, thru 2 sets of tires brought:

Driveshaft -- 1.5k

Problem never solved. Vibration continues. No one has a clue.

Flat spot in acceleration brought:

Fuel pump and controller -- 1.5k

Flat spot continued, so this brought --

New mass flow sensor -- 1k

Problem never solved. Still doggy. No one has a clue why.

After all this, the car has a lurching, unsteady ride. It has a roll component when it hits a bump. It has that undamped bouncy Buick feeling. It vibrates at speed. Throttle response is poor, a function it seems of a trans, tho getting a clean bill of health from the dealer, doesn't like to downshift. Coming out of slow corners, it's a slug unless you absolutely floor it. Off the line power is sometimes good, sometimes pokey. There is a subtle shake at idle that is annoying. No one can find the reason for any of this.

I traced the orig owner (local) and found it had never been wrecked, never had unusual problems, and they sorta liked it. Traded it on a Ford taurus, however.

So after all this I bequeath this Q to my mom, age 92, who loves the white leather and will never be unhappy with the throttle response (grin).

My other cars

97 540 6 spd -- a rocket, smooth and powerful, amazing handling. So far beyond the Q it really is not a fair comparison. Actually has more interior and trunk room. Better gas mileage. So fast, so fast. Throttle response like it's wired to your brain.

94 325is 5 spd -- small version of the 540.

88 535i 5spd -- not quite as fast as the 540 but teriffic feel, throttle response, and handling

01 740 iL -- on the way, I'll let you know

Windstar van -- would you believe more fun to drive than the Q because the trans shifts right and the throttle response is better?

I've done repairs on the BMW "fleet" but NOTHING like the Q. And the prices for parts and labor are much lower for the bimmers. Plus, it seems they can be fixed. No one can deal with the Q.

Oh well, mom will enjoy it.

[Q451990]

I'm thinking your problem may be the service you're getting locally... Sounds like they just threw parts at it until you got tired of spending the $$. I've gotta give you credit for this though - you made one hell of an effort! With the $$ you've dropped into this car your mom should be in good shape for a while.

I know you've probably washed your hands of it, but you might consider a trip to T3 just to satisfy my curiosity on what's really wrong if nothing else... I'd be very curious to see what the power balance tests, exhaust hangers, transmission mount, and motor mounts look like...

Heath

[Jesda]

Wow, sounds like you got taken.

Some of those repairs I got done for 1/3 what you paid. Have fun doing head gaskets on the Windstar.

[Jeff Williams]

If your mom gets tired of it, and you decide to let it go, shoot me an email. I am interested in taking on a challenge, like this.

Jeff