Germany to Geitner, GTFO and take your goofy ideas with you

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themadscientist
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Well, Timmay goes to Germany and gets mushroom stamped by the Germans.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/germany-r ... al-warning
European Central Bank Governing Council member Jens Weidmann told Germany's Spiegel magazine in an interview he considered it wrong to "throw out all established principles of monetary policy by citing a general emergency."

In a preview of an interview to be published in the new edition of Spiegel, Weidmann, head of the Bundesbank, said: "Once people start to use monetary policy there will always appear to be reasons suggesting it should continue to be used.
Europe is teetering on the edge. Germany has been that family member that worked hard and did good that all the loser relatives hit up for money. Germany just closed their wallet. Timmay flew over to ask them to keep playing along and they are'nt going to.


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IBCoupe
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Welp, there goes the Euro. Best stock up on canned goods, folks. It's gonna be a long winter.

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bigbadberry3
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I'm going to go get me some noodles....

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themadscientist
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Don't forget the booze man!

I wonder if the Germans would or even could detach themselves from the euro. Their economy is strong, but relies on exports and if they left the EU the euro would crash and they would be bordered by nations that could no longer afford their goods.

Leaving the EU might be the best thing for Greece. Their exports are priced in a currently strong currency and it hurts them. After the initial shock their now worth next to nothing money would allow them to export significantly cheaper goods and hopefully let them get back on their feet.

Entangling alliances are entangling.

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IBCoupe
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I think if Germany refused to bailout Greece, you'd see other nations signing onto that deal, too. Then you'd see Greece default, then you'd see Greek banks default, then you'd see a whole bunch of floudering banks across Europe. The Eurozone would be in ruin, and the rest of the world would be plunged into a second recession.

And President Obama will get the blame and we'll get President Perry.



Now there's a thought that's going to fester.

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themadscientist
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No, they will figure out some way to keep it together even though it really needs to fall apart. As far as Obama being blamed, that's a stretch. He would actually have to do something for me to blame him and he can't seem to do anything so he is at best asleep at the wheel. This is the bankers' monster and it's destroying the village. Time to get the torches and storm the castle.

Image

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I'm saying politically. Obama's catching hell for the current economic woes, and the only way you can say he's at fault for them is if you're on the left, screaming that the stimulus wasn't large enough.

If a second recession happens in the next six months, he's toast. Well, so are the rest of us, I suppose.

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themadscientist
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And they did the same thing to Bush. It's typical Washington BS. I think any people that halfway pay attention are unaffected by that partisan crap. Unfortunately, there are idiots of all political persuasions who wait patiently to be told by their chosen leaders what they believe. The rest of us who may not walk identical ideological paths, but do share a desire to have responsive fair governance and a prosperous future for our country are shackled to those idiots and have to try to drag them to the center.

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Cold_Zero
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An interesting way of looking at the EU's current situation:
Der Spiegel wrote:We Swiss don't want to be, won't be and don't have to be part of this EU, a 27-horse carriage that's being pulled by only one horse now, the German horse. The rest of them are tangled up in their harnesses or lying in the carriage.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 72,00.html

And apparently not all European countries are fairing that badly.
In light of the risk that the European monetary union could collapse under the mountains of debt of its member states, bankers recommended that their customers invest in the currencies of stable countries: the Japanese yen, the Swedish krona and the Norwegian krone, the Canadian and Australian dollars -- and the Swiss franc.

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themadscientist
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Great, pump up the yen. All my bills are in yen you ***holes and I get paid in dollars! :mad:

Imaging that your dollar suddenly only bought 70 cents. :eek:

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Cold_Zero wrote:An interesting way of looking at the EU's current situation:
Der Spiegel wrote:We Swiss don't want to be, won't be and don't have to be part of this EU, a 27-horse carriage that's being pulled by only one horse now, the German horse. The rest of them are tangled up in their harnesses or lying in the carriage.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 72,00.html

And apparently not all European countries are fairing that badly.
In light of the risk that the European monetary union could collapse under the mountains of debt of its member states, bankers recommended that their customers invest in the currencies of stable countries: the Japanese yen, the Swedish krona and the Norwegian krone, the Canadian and Australian dollars -- and the Swiss franc.
The financial risk isn't from the collapse of the euro, it's from the collapse of large European banks.

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Cold_Zero
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No really, is that how it works? My point was, that Switzerland has always been a type of Fortress Europa. Which is why I taught my daughter to say "Ich bin Schwiezer, nicht auslander", in case we need to re-migrate back to the continent. Which pisses my mom off when I say that..

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And my point is that "And apparently not all European countries are fairing that badly" is a pretty meaningless statement.

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Cold_Zero
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meaningless statement.. Kind of like talk about paying down the National Debt, curbing spending and tax reform? humpf. Apparently, some have faith in the 'Fotress Europa' or they wouldnt be stashing their gold, data or money in the country.

Or does it just piss you off when I romanticize about my Helvetica roots?
Love ya Isaac.

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IBCoupe
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Romanticize away; I'm just saying it's meaningless in that the threat to Europe faring well is ahead, not behind. It doesn't surprise me at all that Switzerland is doing well, because what is being asked of them is action to prevent them from doing not so well in the not-too-distant future.

Somewhere in time and space.
Mike Nelson and his robot pals
Are caught in an endless chase,
Pursued by a woman whose name is Pearl,
An evil gal who wants to rule the world.
She threw a few things in her purse,
And in her rocketship she hunts him
All across the universe.

"I'll send him cheesy movies,
"The worst I can find (La la la).
"He'll have to sit and watch them all,
"While I monitor his mind."

Now keep in mind Mike can't control
Where the movies begin or end (La la la)
He'll try to keep his sanity
With the help of his robot friends!

Robot Roll-Call!

Cambot! Gypsy! Tom Servo! Crooooooooooow!

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts (La la la)
Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show,
"I should really just relax...
"For Mystery Science Theater 3000!"






Wow, I really need a nap.

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Cold_Zero
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Another interesting article.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 52,00.html

Slovakia to Greece, you must fix your own damn problems.
I think this article illustrates part of the problem, it is hard work fixing your own problems and the Greeks aren’t willing to do the hard work. That has been obvious since they failed to implement the cuts needed to keep their funding alive. I do not share your view, Isaac. At a certain point, things have to fail as a natural fail safe in economies. If not, people don’t learn their lessons about ‘stupid economic behavior’ and continue practice those behaviors. Just look at the United States for an example.
Regards to the Swiss, it is a mentality that many of the Europeans and Americans just do not understand. But hey, that is evident with the current economic 'crises.’
Last edited by Cold_Zero on Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cold_Zero wrote:Slovakia to Greece, you must fix your own damn problems.
IBCoupe wrote:Welp, there goes the Euro. Best stock up on canned goods, folks. It's gonna be a long winter.

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Cold_Zero
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I thought only the Mormons and the Conspiracy theorists stocked up for the end times?

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themadscientist
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Lloyds of London decides European debt is too risky, pulls investments.

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... om-europe/
“Given the uncertainty around the euro zone, it’s only natural that we would seek to reduce any potential downside risk. As a result, we’re not holding government debt of any peripheral EU country and have sought to reduce our exposure to banks in these countries,” Lloyd’s Finance Director Luke Savage told Dow Jones Newswires on Wednesday.

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Begun, the clone war has.

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IBCoupe
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Cold_Zero wrote:I thought only the Mormons and the Conspiracy theorists stocked up for the end times?
I dont think it's the end times, I just think we're about to hrs whole new patch of suck.

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themadscientist
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I'm laughing as the euro investors run to the dollar for "security." Gold and silver getting no love so the ish is cheaper for those that can see past the end of their arm.

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Cold_Zero
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I found this article interesting as I have had some conversations with my Danish friend over these same issues in relation to the current EU Crisis. http://www.acton.org/print/5333
'Article wrote: Free Market Sweden, Social Democratic America
By admin
Created 10/12/2011 - 9:47am
October 12, 2011

Tweet [1]by Samuel Gregg [2]
Two historic countries, moving in opposite -- and unexpected -- directions.

"Sweden" isn't the first word that normally crosses our minds when we hear the expression "free market." But if President Obama, Paul Krugman, Warren Buffett, and other progressives want to find ways out of America's seemingly-intractable economic crisis, they might consider looking to the country once viewed as the very model of a modern Social Democracy.

They're likely to be surprised -- and probably appalled -- by what they discover. For while America has opted for more deficit-spending, bailouts, socialized medicine, easy money, failed state-subsidized Solyndra-like green businesses, "job-plans," and thus-far unsuccessful efforts to raise taxes, Sweden has been quietly turning social democracy into a museum-piece.

No one will be surprised to learn that Sweden was among the first European countries to create a modern welfare state. Between 1911 and 1914, Karl Staaff's Liberal government introduced some of Europe's first national pension and insurance schemes. Over time, additional programs were added.

But two things distinguished Sweden's welfare state from the very beginning. First, Sweden's progressives cleverly marketed their ideas as a way of realizing what they called a folkhemmet (people's home). The emphasis was upon realizing a once-overwhelmingly peasant society's traditional values in a context of industrialization. This helped the Social Democrat governments that ruled Sweden between 1932 and 1976 avoid being labeled as soft-Marxists in a country deeply wary of an expansionist Soviet Union.

The second distinguishing feature was Sweden's vision of state-provided social protection as a right. This led to successive governments insisting upon universal coverage and the costs being covered by general taxation.

It took several decades, but the relentless logic of these commitments eventually eroded the Swedish economy's competitiveness. The situation was worsened by the decision of governments in the 1970s to hasten Sweden's long march towards the Social Democratic nirvana. This included expanding welfare programs, nationalizing many industries, expanding and deepening regulation, and -- of course -- increasing taxation to punitive levels to pay for it all.

Over the next twenty years, the Swedish dream turned decidedly nightmarish. The Swedish parliamentarian Johnny Munkhammar points [3] out that "In 1970, Sweden had the world's fourth-highest GDP per capita. By 1990, it had fallen 13 positions. In those 20 years, real wages in Sweden increased by only one percentage point." So much for helping "the workers."

Facing severe economic stagnation, Sweden began implementing several rather un-social democratic measures in the early 1990s. This included curtaining its public sector deficit and reducing marginal tax-rates and levels of state ownership. Another change involved allowing private retirement schemes, a development that was accompanied by the state contributing less to pensions.

These reforms, however, proved insufficient. In the early 2000s, according to James Bartholomew [4], author of the best-selling The Welfare State We're In [5] (2006), more than one in five Swedes of working-age was receiving some type of benefit. Over 20 percent of the same demographic of Swedes was effectively working "off-the-books" or less than they preferred. Sweden's tax structure even made it financially advantageous for many to stay on the dole instead of getting a job.

But with a non-Social Democrat coalition government's election in 2006, Sweden's reform agenda resumed. On the revenue side, property taxes were scaled back. Income-tax credits allowing larger numbers of middle and lower-income people to keep more of their incomes were introduced.

To be fair, the path to tax reform was paved here by the Social Democrats. In 2005, they simply abolished -- yes, that's right, abolished -- inheritance taxes.

But liberalization wasn't limited to taxation. Sweden's new government accelerated privatizations of once-state owned businesses. It also permitted private providers to enter the healthcare market, thereby introducing competition into what had been one of the world's most socialized medical systems. Industries such as taxis and trains were deregulated. State education and electricity monopolies were ended by the introduction of private competition. Even Swedish agricultural prices are now determined by the market. Finally, unemployment benefits were reformed so that the longer most people stayed on benefits, the less they received.

So what were the effects of all these changes? The story is to be found in the numbers. Unemployment levels fell dramatically from the 10 percent figure of the mid-1990s. Budget-wise, Sweden started running surpluses instead of deficits. The country's gross public debt declined from a 1994 figure of 78 percent to 35 percent in 2010. Sweden also weathered the Great Recession far better than most other EU states. Sweden's 2010 growth-rate was 5.5 percent. By comparison, America's was 2.7 percent.

Of course Sweden's story is far from perfect. Approximately, one-third of working Swedes today are civil servants. Some of the benefits of tax reform have been blunted by Sweden's embrace of carbon taxes since the early 1990s. That partly reflects the extent to which many Swedes are in thrall to contemporary Western Europe's fastest growing religion -- environmentalism.

High unemployment also persists among immigrants and young Swedes (25.9 percent amongst 15-25 year olds). This owes much, Bartholomew observes, to "the high minimum wage imposed on the various industries by the still-powerful unions. Those who cannot command a good wage are not allowed to work for a lower one." On the income side, average Swedish wage-earners in 2009 still took home less than 50 percent of what they cost their employer. The equivalent figure for Britain was 67 percent.

It hardly need be said that the differences between Sweden and the United States are enormous. An economy of 310 million people is a very different affair to one with just over 9 million inhabitants. Moreover, small ships are easier to turn around than ocean-liners. Nonetheless, it's surely paradoxical -- and tragic -- that a small Nordic country which remains a byword for its (at times obsessive) commitment to egalitarianism has proved far more willing than America to give economic liberty a chance.

This column first appeared on the American Spectator

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"[F]ailed state-subsidized Solyndra-like green businesses" is where it lost me. And the cite to "American Spectator" at the end assured me that skipping the stuff in between was the right choice.

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Exampes of other "state-subsidized" businesses in the U.S.

Exxon
Shell
BP
Mobil
PG&E
Exelon
Nicor
United States Postal Service
Monsanto
Pioneer
AT&T
Con-Agra
and every single independent and corporate farm.

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themadscientist
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Subsidizing established powerful businesses is not a free market. When the GOP claims the mantle of being for such it rings hollow.

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IBCoupe
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Notable that Solyndra was only subsidized after it failed. Prior to that, it was just a company who got a loan cosigned by the Government. Like the other green companies in the program. Or like the billions-greater deals we give to nuclear power developers.

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IBCoupe wrote:Notable that Solyndra was only subsidized after it failed.
And perhaps that private investors are getting their money back before the government gets back its fiscal injection.

And now we've got another one, of sorts, again.

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Cold_Zero
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Encryptshun wrote:Exampes of other "state-subsidized" businesses in the U.S.

Exxon
Shell
BP
Mobil
PG&E
Exelon
Nicor
United States Postal Service
Monsanto
Pioneer
AT&T
Con-Agra
and every single independent and corporate farm.
You forgot the biggies, the GSEs:
Freddie Mac
Fannie Mae
Federal Home Loan Bank
Student Loan Marketing Association
Direct Lending (Quasi Government Agency, like the Post Office)
Last edited by Cold_Zero on Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cold_Zero
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IBCoupe wrote: And the cite to "American Spectator" at the end assured me that skipping the stuff in between was the right choice.
And yet people quoting the Daily Show and blogs (polemic) passes as true journalism or scholasticism. Gotta love this day in age.


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