G35 intake timing issues - P0340,P0011 & P0021

[Lev8rdoc]

I am looking for additional pointers for a problem I have been chasing on a 2006 infinity g35 coupe with a VQ35DE motor, specifically with the dreaded P0340, P0011 and P0021 codes. I have done extensive troubleshooting and cannot chase down the root cause if the issue. Currently the following has been done

Changed oil with new 5-30 synthetic

Changed all crank and camshaft sensors with factory OEM parts

Verified the wiring integrity to the ECU

Verified the waveform with an oscilloscope for both b1 and b2 cam sensors at the ECU. These are identical in form and amplitude

Checked most grounds on engine block and within reach of interior

Reset ECU

The current situation is when I monitor the INT CAM b1 and INT CAM b2 signals, the b1 is bouncing wildly at startup (cold) going rapidly from about -19 to full deflection @ +40. The b2 sensor at idle is stable at -16. Once the car gets to normal operating temperature, the b1 reading stabilizes at about -19. During this initial start, the car will throw a P0011 and P0021 code immediately, and idles terrible. (Seems to follow the bouncing b1 intake cam timing) after it warms up, the idle stablizes at about 700 RPM. If I attempt to increase the RPM beyond about 2000, it cuts and will not go higher. This also throws the P0340 code once it does the cut. During the run up to 2000 RPM, the b1 reading once again begins jumping wildly. I am really hoping to find a solution that does not entail having to remove to timing cover and try to fix either stuck cam sprockets or a blown galley gasket. This engine only has about 15k on it and it was a factory crate when purchased. I have a hard time believing it’s failed parts but I am out of options for small items to check.

I believe most ppl have stated that my intake valve timing should be at about 0 when idling… what would cause both banks to retard as far as they are if so? If the chain happened to jum a tooth, would the car even run at all, let alone idle perfectly? I can imagine that one tooth could lead to about 17 degrees of change based upon some math and other posts I have read, which would make sense as to why both banks are off close to the same if zero is the baseline idle point.

I am going to pull both solenoids this morning and check them for operation and make sure the screens are clean. Other than this last “easy” check, I am out of ideas. I am really concerned with the b1 readings jumping so wildly as I cannot grasp what might cause this issue with the wiring and signal being verified. The ECU is seeing something that doesn’t pan out logically.

Any and all advice or suggestions are welcome…. I am hoping t9 resolve without the major job of pulling that timing cover

Update: verified solenoids and screens are clean and operating and verified cam pulleys are properly aligned when engine is at top dead center. Does not appear to be a timing chain issue. Oil galleys from removed parts look clean and free of debris.

[VStar650CL]

Even the stable cam at -16 is completely abnormal. The IVT's should both sit around zero until the car warms up, then should only react much when you goose the throttle. You probably have jumped chains, along with maybe a broken tensioner or bad phaser on the unstable bank.

[VStar650CL]

If the chains are aligned, check the phasers and tensioners. Something is radically out to cause a -16 degree reading.

[Lev8rdoc]

Thank you for the reply Vstar. I have been out trying to figure what is causing the readings all morning. If I unplug the b1 sensor, it takes a bit longer to start but runs great. No limp mode at all. After the car gets warm I never see anything coming from the INT cam sol outputs at all. They stay at zero all the time. I am beginning to wonder if the ndsII software isn’t giving me accurate data. At least with respect to the cam info. Another bit of info that may or may not verify if im seeing correct data is that when I have the b1 sensor completely unplugged the reading shows full +40 and when I plug the old sensor and get voltage to the ECU just sitting out of the motor it shows the same. With seeing that it appears that if the ECU doesn’t see a good waveform it defaults to full advance but without knowing what that data actually is being driven from its a guess at best. I monitored the intake timing when running the idle up to about 3k and it did very little if any advancing or retarding with different throttle positions. The timing did advance from about 15 to 30 when doing this as well. Could a blown galley gasket behind the cover create a situation that would cause the phasers to retard if low pressure was getting to them? I am trying to find documentation on how they are actuated in more detail. So far all I have been able to get is they are regulated by oil pressure. My thought was that if they are spring loaded and the pressure was too low to advance them I would see this type of issue but again, I’m really guessing with not fully understanding how they are controlled and if they retard under spring tension.

I hate to pull that cover but it surely sounds like that’s where I’m headed.

I almost forgot to add, I am no longer getting the P0011 and P0021 codes. Strictly a P0340 now.

[VStar650CL]

The answer about the gallery o-ring is yes, if it's blown it will all cause all kinds of weird misbehavior. There are no springs in the phasers, they operate by balancing oil pressure in a set of opposed chambers. Your G also won't have "intermediate lock" for the phasers like some later models, so if the oil pressure in the timing cover is all over the lot, the phasers will pretty much go all over the lot too. Why the P0011/p0021 codes would suddenly disappear I have no idea, maybe you had a clog and not a blowout and it managed to clear itself after the oil change.

[Lev8rdoc]

Vstar, once again I appreciate your knowledge.

I am adding some pictures of the data capture I have showing the wild behavior of b1 intake reading. Its pegging the scale. I cant believe that this type of situation would be caused by a mechanical issue but I am not the expert. I cant imagine that the cam could even feasibly advance to 63+ without the car going bonkers or some kind of damage. From what I could see after looking into the phasers, they can only move so far in either direction, so I am having a hard time believing that it could advance that far or that it would be able to due to mechanical limits. I did another test as well while the car was running. I tool a 12vdc power supply and energized the VVT coils on b2 to make sure that the ECM was reading something properly and with a full 12v on the coil (Fully open) it advanced the Intake timing to roughly +29, so I am pretty sure that there isnt an issue with oil pressure at that component.

What could possibly cause the ECM to think that the cam is advanced so radically in short spurts? This is really starting to feel like an electrical issue and possibly the ECM itself? The way it spike off the chart intermittently with no real pattern leads me to believe there is some kind of noise or the ECM is not processing the signal properly. At bare minimum, when the car is at idle, it does not appear that the VVT coils are energizing at all, and I had read that they work both off of temperature and load. If the load is below 50%, they retard, at 50% its balanced and above 50% they advance. This is a loose description of what I read the function was, which if it is true would explain why the timing is so far retarded at idle with the duty sitting at about 20% and the vvt coils being at 0. Once again, I am really taking wild guesses at things based upon GOOGLE and my general experience with the industry I am in.

Another note as well. If I clear the codes, and hold the idle to 1500, then rev it, I see the Coils go to about 80 very quickly and then it appears they are disabled after the P0340 fault is logged. I also started getting the P0011 and P0021 again. I cannot explain this.

[Lev8rdoc]

vStar,

I just did another test to see if the phaser was stuck on b1, similar to what I did with b2. I energized the VVT coil while running, which advanced the intake timing to about +28. The idle stabilized, although was more rough than normal but expected with the forced advancing of the intake cam. Once it stabilized I tried to get a failure to occur and the car ran flawlessly while running up the RPM and when goosing the throttle to the upper range, where it always fires off a P0340 code. I also noticed that the VVT coils remained in operation during the testing and would show increased percentages when the load was increased during a rev up. This to me, proves that the phasers are working as intended, but not sure why the spike is happening when the coils are not energized. In the pics provided you can see that the intake timing is very stable and not spiking like it does when the VVT coils are off (or possibly in an extrement retarded position?) Is it possible that the ECM is trying to compensate for an overly retarded intake? I do not have pulse modulator to try and modulate the coil to only advance it a small amount unfortunately. I would love to see if I was able to match the -16 from b1 and keep it from hitting -19+ if the spiking would stop.

With all of the other stuff that has been discussed, some additional information that may or may not be helpful. I verified the timing using a template laid on the Phasers when the engine is at TDC. Both aligned with the dowel pins as noted by the creator of this nifty thing. I also have zero noise from the engine with regards to any kind of rattling, even when revving it up so i feel that the chains are not loose or the tensioners are not working as well. I could be wrong, as you noted that with the timing so far retarded it points to a mechanical issue, but with seeing that I can cause the phasers to advance equally when energizing the VVT coils, I feel pretty confident that they are not stuck or working incorrectly. With that being said, I never see the VVT coils come to life, even after the car gets to operating temperature which makes me believe that something there is not happening that should. If they balance the oil flow between the two galleys as noted, then to get a 0 timing with them at % would not be possible would it? The de-energized state of them would leave the piston in the closed position completely which would divert the pressure to one side of the phaser. I think that is what is holding me at the negative side of the timing. Again, I am trying to put general logic into this as I am really spitballing, but I cannot see with my current understanding of how those work, how the timing could be held at 0 unless we are energizing the coils appropriately.

Any and all suggestions are welcome as I try to wrap my head around this ridiculously frustrating situation.

[macgiver]

https://autospruce.com/vq35de-3-5l-v6-engine-reviews/

[VStar650CL]

Yep, that graph says it all. It can't possibly be mechanical or hydraulic, the speed of those transmission means they have to be electrical phantoms. The sensor also has to be going flatline for at least short periods to cause a P0340. If you haven't already, try a new OE cam sensor. If you have already, then it pretty much has to be a connection issue. Given the symptoms, I'd suspect a bouncy pin-fit is more likely than a partially-broken wire.

[Lev8rdoc]

Good morning vStar.

Thank you for following up on this. The one thing I am concerned with when it comes to a loose wire, broken wire or pin connection is that when I apply voltage to the VCT coil and it advances, the signal becomes stable. If it was a poor connection then the bouncing should apply here as well. Once it advances the signal is solid as a rock. If I were to do a quick comparison to b2, it jumps a bit at idle (nowhere near b1) but also will stabilize at full advance. Not sure how any of that may play in but it doesn’t lead me to any great revelation unfortunately.

The other thing is the consensus seems to be that the timing should be at 0 when at idle which is not occurring. I don’t see any attempt from the ECM to be working the VCT to accomplish that if so. In this case I am wondering if the timing is bottomed out in the full retard position and potentially outside what the ECM can process, therefore causing it to “think” it’s fully advanced. Sort of like going over the edge so to speak. I am going to put the old cam sensor back in today and see if I get similar results. That should eliminate the sensor at that point. It currently has the brand new OEM sensor installed but I will verify to close that option.

Could this actually be a bad ECM? I know it’s rare but with the goofy crap going on I can’t help but lean towards that. I also did verify a second time that the timing was on according to the templates created by a gentleman that I found searching around. I am trying to find that link to show an example of what I am using to verify. Seems pretty straight forward and should be accurate if it was created properly.

Thank you again for the wisdom!

[VStar650CL]

If it stabilizes at full advance, that's like "locking" the phasers in place, same principle as an "intermediate lock" except you're locking the cam at the extreme instead of at zero degrees. That would imply that the ECM doesn't really have control of them or is trying to control improperly because of bum input. Keep in mind that bum input can come from another source, the ECM expects the two cam sensors and the crank sensor to behave synchronously. It's not uncommon for them to blame the wrong culprit when reluctor teeth are being missed. QR25's are infamous for that, throwing P0335 codes when the cam sensor is actually faulty, or P0340's when it's actually the crank. Some techs just insist on replacing both because they don't want to bother f#cking around, and I don't blame them.

[VStar650CL]

PS - Have you put a voltmeter on the control lines for the IVT's to see if the ECM is actually driving them? The driver is on the ground side like an injector, so you should see constant battery voltage on one side, a "middle" voltage on the other side representing the PWM from the ECM. If both sides are at battery voltage then chances are the IVT drive transmission in the ECM are fried and the ECM only thinks it's driving them.

[Lev8rdoc]

Update: I FOUND THAT mf’r! I took the plunge and dug into behind the timing cover to eliminate a possible blown gasket or seal… while pulling the crankshaft pulley it basically “fell” off, no puller needed. I then found that the woodruff key that aligns the crank sprocket with the crank was hammered and broken, which in turn allowed the sprocket to “drift” back and forth up to 1/8”. Not sure how I’m gonna fix that just yet as the crank has some damage to the key way and the pulley fits so loose it’s ridiculous. Not sure if it’s the pulley or crank that is worn out (I would think pulley before that hardened crank) but I have no specs on diameter of the end shaft of the crank to verify. At bare minimum I have to order a new pulley as the key way on this on is wasted.

I am going into town to see if I can find a replacement key and see how it fits in the crankshaft. Hoping there’s enough there to bite and save me a ton of machine shop work to fix it.

I will post some pictures later this afternoon showing the findings.

I really appreciate your sticking with this.

[VStar650CL]

Now that's a unique problem, I'll put that one in the book. If you're very good with a dremel you might be able to square off the injured sections of the keyway and use an oversized woodruff, with either an expanded slot in the gear (probably need a machinist for that) or a key with the sides machined to be wide at the curve and narrow at the gear (probably need a machinist for that too). Either way, a machinist's services are undoubtedly cheaper than a new crank. Depends if you can save the keyway in the crank without removing it.

[Lev8rdoc]

Here is the damage. I am hoping a new key, pulley and sprocket will work. The crank keyway has some damage up top but appears to be ok about a third of the way down. With a proper fitting pulley I think I may have escaped a much more serious situation.

[VStar650CL]

I agree, looks like it spent a lot of time rocking and not too much banging side to side, so the bottom of the slot should be okay. That key will be trapped with some downward pressure on it from the new gear and pulley, so I think I'd smear some JB into the crank and gear slots and then tighten it up that way, letting the JB set up for a day. The epoxy will have noplace to go and should act like an immovable spacer once it hardens up. Hopefully that will keep it from rocking again in the first place and prevent it working loose a second time.

[macgiver]

Where in the hell did that "crate motor" come from , what was it's warranty (usually time only - mi hard to prove ya) , how many years you've had it from time of delivery .....
PLEASE let us know this , if you will , so others , INCLUDING ME don't buy from them . pray tell ?

p,s, I was GUESSING mechanical / timing 'set' , I didn't want to butt in here like a Jackass - Vstar and you Lev8rdoc were doing such a kick-a** job on all that data , oscilloscope- WOW I haven't used my o-scope in 12 YEARS !!
Yes ? The timing set (et all) WAS dancing the Irish jig , those poor little sensors were simply fooled? A NOVICE must of assembled that on New Years day w/Fentanyl hangover ++ brain damage ? ................if "MECHANICAL AINT RIGHT ............nothin AFTER is right !! "

[macgiver]

What's up doc ? ?

[Lev8rdoc]

Hello macgiver.

Been trying to get it put back together this week. All parts are in and was going to try and fire it up tonight but after putting in the engine oil, I had a small leak from the lower oil pan so I had to pull it again, work out the ripples in the flange and reinstall. Will try again tomorrow afternoon once the permatex has had a good 15 hours on it.

The new crank pulley was what I expected with regards to the press fit. What a nightmare trying to get that bolt torqued. I couldn’t quite get a full 90 tun on it after initial torque to 33ftlbs, but I got a good 60. Had a 4’ cheater on my 1/2” drive… I have no earthly clue how anyone could get 90. Bout popped a vessel I’m my head pulling that thing.

I will update y’all after my results tomorrow afternoon. Hoping I have everything sealed up good and that the car is back in working order. This has been a serious pain in the tail. Oh, and while I was at it I put new valve cover gaskets on as well as they seemed to have been leaking from the lower front corners.

[macgiver]

Yup ,last T/Belt on the J30 , @ buddies shop - he uses ......WE used a freaken 4' bar chain wrench around the pulley circumference to HOLD. Man , I'm on the chain-gang ......he's torkin the crap out of it (within specs of course!).
I think years before that 2nd TB, I had a long enough ' strap ' wrench and put some ROSIN from daughters violin case for best grip !!

[VStar650CL]

Aargh, don't fight with that stuff. Feed some rope down an open spark plug hole and then turn the crankshaft till the rope locks the piston and prevents the crank from turning. Then torque away with a regular torque wrench, and go backward a few degrees when finished to pull out the rope. You're choking your chicken trying to hold the crank from outside.

[Lev8rdoc]

I ended up using the old power steering belt wrapped around the crank pulley and air conditioner, then pulled the top part of the belt Down to feed back under the bottom of the crank pulley and rotated till it pulled under. That stopped it dead in its tracks. It eliminated having to take a plug out which was my next move. If you haven’t tried that method give it a shot next time. Once it pinched under and pulled tight it didn’t flex a bit when torquing.

[macgiver]

Oh yes I've heard that's a good one ! I go ' with the flow ' in his shop , as I'm grateful he allows me to participate , I don the steel toes and the wrap around safety glasses when I operate w/him there

[Lev8rdoc]

Well, I thought I had it…. Fired it up this afternoon and all looked great. Timing at 0, idle great, no leaks…. Then we took it for a drive and the car started intermittently sputtering under acceleration and throws a 335. No check engine light and will run ok some of the time. It seems if I accelerate from a stop everything is ok, but if I try to accelerate from cruise it goes sideways. I have replaced the crank sensor with a factory new one, but everything I read says it’s the sensor jacking up. I’m about ready to put the old one back in and see if it goes away as this was never an issue before the woodruff key situation.

Any suggestions? Can this be anything related to the chain itself? With timing being ok I can’t imagine but that’s the only thing I touched in the interim .

[Lev8rdoc]

CRISIS ADVERTED! I put the old sensor back on and problem solved. Nothing like spending 206 bucks on an OEM sensor that doesn’t work.

Thank you both for the support along the way!!

[macgiver]

Let me guess ............NOW you can go back to fixing elevators ??

[Lev8rdoc]

How did ya know? Lol I’m done with G 35s for the foreseeable future.. this about did me in… time for a beer, OR TWO

[macgiver]

my head got jostled in accident recently ....and I got smarter......I think.........Now I......can't remmenbber .
yes