France to ban veil

[RobPaulson]

So I just read this article about how France is going vote to ban the veil that muslim women wear. Wondering what everyone thinks?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new....html

On one hand, everyone has the right to wear what they want in public as long as it is not indecent. But then your definition of decent comes into play and there is a gray area. TBQH I do not think the veils have any place in current society, however, it should not be any governments responsibility to regulate this. I think the Muslim people should reject such practices as the world and times change.

Other countries have veiwed the veils (and turbins) as a political symbols of Islam and banned them and/or are still debating.

[Jesda]

Its just a glorified scarf. Ban scarves?

[srellim234]

The primary reason I've seen for banning them is that they hide the identity of the individual from law enforcement on the street. How do you verify who the person is or spot a criminal when faces are hidden?

In fact, some Muslims are insisting that they are allowed to get driver's licenses and gov't issued identification cards while wearing the veils. If they insist on getting Western amenities and technologies they need to also be willing to abide by Western codes when in public. After all, the Muslim countries put some restrictions on Western women who move there.

If a ban is done out of relgious paranoia and persecution it is totally wrong. If it is truly done for security and identification purposes I think it is ok.

But, as was pointed out in another thread recently, we can have opinions about what is being done but we have no business telling the French what they should or should not do in their own country. I would hope our politicians and pundits discuss the issue keeping suggestions and the word "should" out of it.

[szh]

If a ban is done out of relgious paranoia and persecution it is totally wrong. If it is truly done for security and identification purposes I think it is ok.

My opinion is the same ... and I am a Muslim, by the way.

Z

[dusred]

It's religious discrimination to ban people from wearing the clothing that their religion requires them to wear - not to mention they've been wearing these veils for centuries.

[srellim234]

If the ban is done for the purpose of being able to identify, those who choose not to reveal their identities, even if it's due to a religious requirement, still have the option to not go out in public. It's the individual's choice to live in a particular country and the country does not need to to accommodate them if it's a matter of security.

[dusred]

If the ban is done for the purpose of being able to identify, those who choose not to reveal their identities, even if it's due to a religious requirement, still have the option to not go out in public.

That's ridiculous. Their religion has been around for a long time and it has never been a problem in the past. Why France is doing this I don't know but it stinks like religious persecution to me. I don't know squat about France's laws or constitution so I don't know what rights the French are guaranteed. I'll tell you this that it would never happen in America.

It's the individual's choice to live in a particular country and the country does not need to to accommodate them if it's a matter of security.

The difference is the individuals didn't move into a country with those laws. They were already in the country and the country made laws against them.

Anything can be a matter of security. Hell cars kill more people every year than anything else so why don't we ban cars? I think if it is truly a matter of security there is a different way to address it (just like we address the safety of cars in other ways).

I don't necessarily agree with Muslims but I just have to put myself in their shoes. If the government can regulate what clothes a person can wear wear what else can it do?

[srellim234]

I don't necessarily agree with Muslims but I just have to put myself in their shoes. If the government can regulate what clothes a person can wear wear what else can it do?

Whatever it wants. It already has you undressing to get on an airplane. It took away your money to hand to fat-cat Wall Street executives to reimburse them for their failures as businessmen. And it has people believing that their vote for a Republican or Democrat actually makes a difference.

[szh]

I forgot to think about and mention that fingerprint scanners and retina scanners are simple, and far more accurate, alternatives to pictures. People change their looks over time - retina's and fingerprints do not.

There is another thread along this line in the General Chat forum - probably needs to be moved here.

Z

[dusred]

I forgot to think about and mention that fingerprint scanners and retina scanners are simple, and far more accurate, alternatives to pictures. People change their looks over time - retina's and fingerprints do not.

Exactly. There are alternatives to making laws against religion.

[RobPaulson]

I forgot to think about and mention that fingerprint scanners and retina scanners are simple, and far more accurate, alternatives to pictures. People change their looks over time - retina's and fingerprints do not.Z

that is extremely unrealistic form of everyday identification for one reason.

$$.

*I dont feel this way, I'm playing devils advocate here, this is a what if...*Not being able to see peoples faces like that in public makes me uncomfortable. Where are the laws to protect my comfort and well being? Am I just supposed to deal with it?

*opposing argument*Not wearing my religious regalia in public makes me uncomfortable because I feel like I'm betraying my beliefs, where are the laws to protect my comfort and well being?

*Yet another argument*Others publicly displaying their religion bother me. I do not believe the same things and I perceive their actions as blasphemous, it makes me very uncomfortable. Why arent my comforts and rights being protected?

Political correctness is the devil and a never ending cycle of bulls*** spilling from peoples mouths just so they (not a specific they, just emphasizing its always some group of people in general) can get their way.

If the gov't wants to be able to identify people on the street, and veils are prohibiting this, take your veil off.

[srellim234]

dusred- you've been sucked in. The burka and the face veil are cultural and in fact are not religious Muslim dictates from what I've read on the subject.

[heliochrome85]

the french are notoriously paranoid at any percieved threat to their nationality. Simply put, Headscarves are NOT french. Yalmulkes are NOT French. Orthodox Jew hats are NOT French. I live on an island that is half french and half dutch, and even down here, the French are much more protective of their national identity.

this is simply an example of that. Srellim234, as usual, makes a great point, in that in Islam, there is no demand for the face veil, or burkas. The actual religious principle is for women to dress modestly. Since the predominant method of doing so in the middle east among orthodox jewish women, and christian women, is a light headscarf, the muslim convention of the headscarf is merely an extension of that.

as for the ban, i find it unreasonable, for those very reasons. its not a choice for many women to conform to their religious docterines. it would be like forcing practicing catholics to eat meat on friday. yes it is a choice, but not one most would take.

[szh]

that is extremely unrealistic form of everyday identification for one reason.

$$.

Not at all. The readers are dirt-cheap nowadays, and given the amount of money we spend on governmental bureaucracy for other things, this is a totally trivial cost.

*I dont feel this way, I'm playing devils advocate here, this is a what if...*Not being able to see peoples faces like that in public makes me uncomfortable. Where are the laws to protect my comfort and well being? Am I just supposed to deal with it?

*opposing argument*Not wearing my religious regalia in public makes me uncomfortable because I feel like I'm betraying my beliefs, where are the laws to protect my comfort and well being?

*Yet another argument*Others publicly displaying their religion bother me. I do not believe the same things and I perceive their actions as blasphemous, it makes me very uncomfortable. Why arent my comforts and rights being protected?

Political correctness is the devil and a never ending cycle of bulls*** spilling from peoples mouths just so they (not a specific they, just emphasizing its always some group of people in general) can get their way.

The problem is: where do you draw the line?

Should Sikhs be told to remove their turbans (has nothing to do with Islam, by the way!)?

Should Hassidic jews be told to remove their hats and clip their hair?

Should the Amish be forced to take cars everywhere?

Should yamocha's (spelling?) be banned in public?

Should hoods pulled down low over the face be made illegal?

"Being uncomfortable" with these concepts is absolutely no reason for laws to be passed along these lines!

If the gov't wants to be able to identify people on the street, and veils are prohibiting this, take your veil off.

Why should the government be allowed "to identify people on the street" randomly? That seems to me to be a particularly distasteful violation of individual privacy and contrary to the "innocent until proven guilty" ideology that we live by.

Is complete and total police-state surveillance going to be the norm in the future? If so, then I am glad that I am in the twilight of my life and simply grieve for my son's life in the future.

Z

[srellim234]

The veil in the ban discussion has nothing to do with those other headcoverings. The ban is for the full facial veils that conceal the identity of the wearer.

There already have been instances of males wearing the full veils to avoid law enforcement. A person wearing the full facial covering into a bank is every bit as suspect or dangerous as the person wearing a Halloween mask. They conceal their identity from security cameras and security personnel everywhere, be it store security with shoplifters and robbers, to traffic enforcement cameras (which I personally don't like but they ARE legal).

I'm all for preserving some cultural things brought from the old country. Just not those that cause these types of security conflicts. I'm perfectly ok with forcing a compromise to a veil or headcovering that does not hide the face.

Modified by srellim234 at 12:37 AM 3/27/2010
Modified by srellim234 at 12:38 AM 3/27/2010

[srellim234]

Here's a little article on this subject from last October.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story....html

Muslims from Canada to Egypt are publicly debating this same subject, with some in favor and some against.

[szh]

Muslims from Canada to Egypt are publicly debating this same subject, with some in favor and some against.

Yes, of course.

I am very against the idea of women wearing a hijab or niqab, but opposed to having a law explicitly banning it for those women who choose to do so.

Z

[RobPaulson]

Yes, of course.

I am very against the idea of women wearing a hijab or niqab, but opposed to having a law explicitly banning it for those women who choose to do so.

Z

Aye I agree completely in a idealistic setting. I do not think the Govt should be pushing regulations like this, I think the citizens themselves should adjust their practices to fit more into the norm of today and the changing tides of society (I'm not talking about full blown socialization, but the bank example is a good one of what I'm getting at). I believe i eluded to this in one of my posts, I had just directly addressed it to the Muslim people because I had yet to learn that the veil was not necessarily a Muslim thing.

I think the Muslim people should reject such practices as the world and times change.

The problem is: where do you draw the line?

That is what I was getting at. It is extremely hard to draw the line. As it is I think I have pretty much contradicted myself every single post here LOL.

On one side we have public safety concerns, and on the other, we have a persons individual rights to wear what they want in public.

Example being... I support airport scanners because I have nothing to hide. I couldnt give 2 s***s if some douche sees mahquak if it catches the guy 3 people back with a bomb laced around his sack.

. . . I can't think of any more examples of this kind of legislation... but overall, it is a very thin line. but if public security is at risk, and the law doesnt hurt anyone but the people exploiting it to do harm, most of the time I would support it.

Modified by RobPaulson at 3:02 PM 3/30/2010

[bigbadberry3]

Quick question. Can anyone inform me of what US laws are regarding covering/hiding one's identity while in public?

[srellim234]

I do know that for driver's licenses and ID photos it's a states' rights issue and not covered on the federal level. I imagine the same applies to being seen on the streets in public.

Some states have been trying to address the issue.

[Jesda]

I call it a privacy issue. If I dont want to be seen, then so be it.

[bigbadberry3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... -and-niqab

It's now in play.

[heliochrome85]

holy dead thread?

[bigbadberry3]

Almost to the date 1 year but a I thought it should be updated at the least as it's now taking effect.

[n00b240]

holy dead thread?

I was gonna say.....reading through the comments and then came across yours talkin about living on an island half dutch, thinkin wtf, helio should be wrappin up 3rd year in the states now

[IBCoupe]

Reminds me of when the Swiss banned minarets. The whole world has gone batty.

[themadscientist]

You want a driver's license and to be able to use the same as a form of ID, drop the veil. You want to walk around like it's Halloween the rest of the time, I got no quarrel. It just makes me sad that there might be a few hotties out there on the low low.

[heliochrome85]

holy dead thread?

I was gonna say.....reading through the comments and then came across yours talkin about living on an island half dutch, thinkin wtf, helio should be wrappin up 3rd year in the states now

yeah, ive been done for a while. im a few months away from 4th year, and am living in baltimore currently doing my surgery rotation.

[JTR]

There are two types of head covers worm by Muslim women. Niqab a head scarf and a Burka, a complete head to toe cover. Niqab is fine with me, but there is something so demeaning about making your women wear Burkas.

Men of the religion justify it by arguing, "it is eliminate lust among men", but what about women? Women can see men and women lust too; therefore, this argument is useless.

[stebo0728]

Seems the fine is like 200ish for the women, but I heard it was going to be 43000 if a man was found forcing a woman to wear it.

Also, for the muslims, or those knowledgeable about it, I heard today debate that said that the Burka is strictly a cultural item, not mandated by religion, merely by the cultural guises of the religion. Is this accurate?