for argument sake...and to see different opinons...
for argument sake...and to see different opinons...
an argument my friend and i are having...i have searched but only found old threads so here goes. rwd qr25de into s13? worth it? its lighter and better hp than ka...more aftermarket n/a support (i think, not very knowlegeable on this engine) maybe take the 200hp version longblock and swap into s13 using the frontier intake and exhaust mani's of course or maybe custom ones or itb's. anyway....lemme know what your opinions are....
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Wc240
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:58 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
97 Nissan 200SX
91 Nissan 240SX ka-t
06 Scion xB
2000 Nissan Frontier - Contact:
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
dont know about aftermarket support, and hp levels, but i wouldnt do it, unless you had a hookup on the motor/trannyecu set. youll have the same problems as a VQ swap with the wiring/getting around NATTS/CAN and the ETB. ive heard before of peaple doin it but havent seen one. if you had the saet, and the fab skills/hookup for getting it in there, it wouldnt be to bad. youd still have the problems that the frontiers and the sentras have with it.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (Wc240)
agreed....i think it would be a cool thing for low hp goal people. wouldnt a standalone ems delete the c.a.n. and all that stuff? maybe a ka trans would work if you had an adapter plate...in any event. i think the qr could get over 200whp and still be a good daily....as far as gettin the hook up n stuff...i do alright in gettin stuff and probably wouldnt cost me personally over 3 grand. i did read somewhere the mount locations on the rwd engine are pretty damn cose to the ka locations and would bolt right in. anyway....i really am not planning this actual swap..it was a discussion with a friend. just would like some peoples theories on n/a power of this engine upgrades/fabrication going into the swap as just a discussion....oh, and i also think the 200hp version spec-v long block would probably bolt right up in a frontier with minor modfication and maybe the ecu also so why not into an s13. some one actually doing this would have to have two complete cars (frontier and sentra spec-v) just to get started...
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
You might as well budget for a V8 LSx swap if you deviate from 2jz-sr20-rb2x swaps.
keep is simple. if you suck with cars install an sr20 and leave it mostly oem and drive it daily with a/c and enjoy.
if you have hookups for fabrications then a 2jz is the way to go with any s chassis imo.
keep is simple. if you suck with cars install an sr20 and leave it mostly oem and drive it daily with a/c and enjoy.
if you have hookups for fabrications then a 2jz is the way to go with any s chassis imo.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (kingtal0n)
what about weight with the 2jz?? i'm not building a drag car or dyno quen, i live in a mountain surrounded area so i have alt of curvy roads to speed on lol. plus my power goals are low 200's...ike i said, i'm not really thinking of this swap but i think maybe someday...i myself think it could be a great autocross/road race engine...your thoughts
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liquid_cool
- Posts: 1700
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:02 am
- Car: 1990 Nissan 240SX KA24DE-T swap 8.6:1cr, duelsprings, ti retainers,supertech pistons, K1 H-beems balanced internals ect ect
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
200hp at the wheels hu..if we are going add swapp..then how bout a toyota silvertop 20 valve 4 banger...thats a perfect NA motor..loves to rev..stable..5 valves per cylinder..massive support...now that i think about it..man im tempted.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
ok so, a stock redtop with a/c at 7psi and your done.nisstek2 wrote:what about weight with the 2jz?? i'm not building a drag car or dyno quen, i live in a mountain surrounded area so i have alt of curvy roads to speed on lol. plus my power goals are low 200's...ike i said, i'm not really thinking of this swap but i think maybe someday...i myself think it could be a great autocross/road race engine...your thoughts
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
hehe, weird how people think the same thing at around the same time.
I've actually been looking into it pretty intensly. You get 200 hp w/v-spec trim, a fully counter-balanced crank, and I believe w/the new revisions forged rods, forged crank, and better pistons (don't quote me on that).
The way I've sorted it out is like this:
QR25 from 2007+ v-spec sentra: fixed catalytic problem, fixed 2ndary butterfly bolts problem, i think revised block, and maybe removed rotating shaft (balancers) mechanism. Not to mention increased compression for moe powah...
Frontier transmission or bellhousing (transmission is actually the same one found in the z32, z31 turbo, among others (you get the "upgraded transmission everyone wants in their crazy ka setups).
Intake manifold cut at the output ports, reversed, and welded, or Mock up sr20 greddy manifold (the ports seem to have similar shape but spacing must be checked.)) The last method will obviously get rid of the 2ndary butterflies so you'd suffer some torque losses in the lower rpm and require standalone from it most likely. The other option is to run the intake ala 350z from the firewall to the front.
mechanial throttle body (i think the ka's may fit from bolt pattern).
Frontier engine mount brackets and insulators: They are very similar to ka mounts and perhaps line up enough (the ka mounts may work fine too), and the design of the insulators is similar enough.
Downpipe... you may try to use the frontier one and see how that works, but more than likely need to fab one.
Driveshaft: The z31 turbo transmission allows the use of the stock KA driveshaft. If that's the case and the z31 transmission is identical in length to the frontier transmission, then a z31 driveshaf may be the ticket. Otherwise, you'd have to buy the z31 transmission, swap bellhousings and your set. This however may compromise the position of the engine w/respect to the firewall.
Flywheel and clutch: QR flywheel and clutch, nissan uses same input shaft in many transmission models so I think the posibilities for clutch setups is limitless.
ECU: this is the big one, you could use the sentra spec v QR ecu which will net you the 200 hp if installed correctly. However, as we've seen w/the 350 setups, you have to get the pedal/position sensor combo, plus anti-theft system (porbably includes having to take the ignition cylilnder and key). I am unaware right now if there are people out there that may be able to delete this last requirement off the ecu. I've also read around that early QR did not have the nats/anti-theft setup, however it's doubtful that such ECU would work correctly w/the newer QR's.
Frontier ECU: A possiblity that allows you to use a rwd harness, however, the QR in the frontiers is that of the older QR revision, so perhaps won't work or output the same power in a sentr spec V QR.
Harness: Altima, sentra, frontier. 1st 2 undoubtedly needing modification.
Megasquirt: i think the last iteration allows you to control electronic throttle bodies...you may say, just ditch the damn thing, but I also believe the new MS has provisions for launch control....so electronic tb, ABS in 240 would perhaps net you a neat traction control setup.
KA ECU or SR ECU: Now before you call me crazy, i've seen KA's run on DSM ecu's, so bare (sp*) w/me a minute. I think there's been some crazy advances in the KA cracking side of things so if you use the ka harness and sensors (which may or may not be the same in/the QR, there very well could be a possiblity here. The big one is spark however since the QR has COP ignition (don't know if cracks allows KA's to run COP), which tells me the SR ECU may be best suited.
Still with me? Let's talk turbo:QR aftermarket is there in turbo form. The QR turbo manifolds (both log and equal length setups) are pretty symmetrical and lend themselves nicely for rwd purposes. The older QR manifolds which had the defective cat-back are of a nice design as well, and I beieve may be modified for a cool bottom mount setup. The rest well, it's pretty much the same as any other engine.
Spec-v engine could very well be turbocharged in its high comp. form, but there's the cheaper '07+ QR w/175 hp found in altimas and base sentras. You still get all the new revisions, but a lower compression ratio. You may even be able to pull off some other ratios using older QR pistons.
It's a nice engine in its newest form. I've been thinking of making some parts to get this done, but being pioneer is a bit risky. Don't let the naysayers bring down the concept....it wasn't that long ago that turbo KA's where considered a waste of time. Think about it, more displacement than a KA, an SR redline, and 100 lbs lighter than an NA SR engine!! W/turbo you are talking about NA SR weight. There's pros in that it's a newer engine, open deck (better cooling weaker in the boost department), lends nicely to light-weight car setups as well as NA setups and is probably legal under SCCA mandates.
Now, I've probably let the cat out of the bag, but it could help in gauging interest.
I've actually been looking into it pretty intensly. You get 200 hp w/v-spec trim, a fully counter-balanced crank, and I believe w/the new revisions forged rods, forged crank, and better pistons (don't quote me on that).
The way I've sorted it out is like this:
QR25 from 2007+ v-spec sentra: fixed catalytic problem, fixed 2ndary butterfly bolts problem, i think revised block, and maybe removed rotating shaft (balancers) mechanism. Not to mention increased compression for moe powah...
Frontier transmission or bellhousing (transmission is actually the same one found in the z32, z31 turbo, among others (you get the "upgraded transmission everyone wants in their crazy ka setups).
Intake manifold cut at the output ports, reversed, and welded, or Mock up sr20 greddy manifold (the ports seem to have similar shape but spacing must be checked.)) The last method will obviously get rid of the 2ndary butterflies so you'd suffer some torque losses in the lower rpm and require standalone from it most likely. The other option is to run the intake ala 350z from the firewall to the front.
mechanial throttle body (i think the ka's may fit from bolt pattern).
Frontier engine mount brackets and insulators: They are very similar to ka mounts and perhaps line up enough (the ka mounts may work fine too), and the design of the insulators is similar enough.
Downpipe... you may try to use the frontier one and see how that works, but more than likely need to fab one.
Driveshaft: The z31 turbo transmission allows the use of the stock KA driveshaft. If that's the case and the z31 transmission is identical in length to the frontier transmission, then a z31 driveshaf may be the ticket. Otherwise, you'd have to buy the z31 transmission, swap bellhousings and your set. This however may compromise the position of the engine w/respect to the firewall.
Flywheel and clutch: QR flywheel and clutch, nissan uses same input shaft in many transmission models so I think the posibilities for clutch setups is limitless.
ECU: this is the big one, you could use the sentra spec v QR ecu which will net you the 200 hp if installed correctly. However, as we've seen w/the 350 setups, you have to get the pedal/position sensor combo, plus anti-theft system (porbably includes having to take the ignition cylilnder and key). I am unaware right now if there are people out there that may be able to delete this last requirement off the ecu. I've also read around that early QR did not have the nats/anti-theft setup, however it's doubtful that such ECU would work correctly w/the newer QR's.
Frontier ECU: A possiblity that allows you to use a rwd harness, however, the QR in the frontiers is that of the older QR revision, so perhaps won't work or output the same power in a sentr spec V QR.
Harness: Altima, sentra, frontier. 1st 2 undoubtedly needing modification.
Megasquirt: i think the last iteration allows you to control electronic throttle bodies...you may say, just ditch the damn thing, but I also believe the new MS has provisions for launch control....so electronic tb, ABS in 240 would perhaps net you a neat traction control setup.
KA ECU or SR ECU: Now before you call me crazy, i've seen KA's run on DSM ecu's, so bare (sp*) w/me a minute. I think there's been some crazy advances in the KA cracking side of things so if you use the ka harness and sensors (which may or may not be the same in/the QR, there very well could be a possiblity here. The big one is spark however since the QR has COP ignition (don't know if cracks allows KA's to run COP), which tells me the SR ECU may be best suited.
Still with me? Let's talk turbo:QR aftermarket is there in turbo form. The QR turbo manifolds (both log and equal length setups) are pretty symmetrical and lend themselves nicely for rwd purposes. The older QR manifolds which had the defective cat-back are of a nice design as well, and I beieve may be modified for a cool bottom mount setup. The rest well, it's pretty much the same as any other engine.
Spec-v engine could very well be turbocharged in its high comp. form, but there's the cheaper '07+ QR w/175 hp found in altimas and base sentras. You still get all the new revisions, but a lower compression ratio. You may even be able to pull off some other ratios using older QR pistons.
It's a nice engine in its newest form. I've been thinking of making some parts to get this done, but being pioneer is a bit risky. Don't let the naysayers bring down the concept....it wasn't that long ago that turbo KA's where considered a waste of time. Think about it, more displacement than a KA, an SR redline, and 100 lbs lighter than an NA SR engine!! W/turbo you are talking about NA SR weight. There's pros in that it's a newer engine, open deck (better cooling weaker in the boost department), lends nicely to light-weight car setups as well as NA setups and is probably legal under SCCA mandates.
Now, I've probably let the cat out of the bag, but it could help in gauging interest.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
oh yeah, oil pan....frontier maybe? If the frontier chassis hasn't changed much, then it may share a similar crossmember as in the past...this would mean a front sump oil pan if the past KA's had identical sumps to 240's KA's. Same reasoning for the brackets/mounts.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (liquid_cool)
nice...now we are thinking outside the box...but what about the tq on this engine? would it be a better choice than the larger qr engine? the qr has a NICE powerband from dyno's i have looked at and the torque is freakin awsome too...what other engine options are out there for a low 200whp goal and staying n/a with daily driver reliabity?liquid_cool wrote:200hp at the wheels hu..if we are going add swapp..then how bout a toyota silvertop 20 valve 4 banger...thats a perfect NA motor..loves to rev..stable..5 valves per cylinder..massive support...now that i think about it..man im tempted.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (Chingon)
nice info chingon..i think the rwd qr is a possability for the s13 and i think it would be a GREAT n/a engine choice for low hp goal people. its light, its got decent power outta the box, its not gonna be hard to get parts for, and i feel there is alot of potential in this engine. i have been thinkin of doin an n/a 1jz or rb25....something along that line but i think the qr (even if its outta the truck with 152 hp) would be an upgrade to the ka24. maybe using the spec-v head with the truck block might be an option. my 2003 altima has the qr and its a tough little engine and i have yet to have a problem out of it other than the crank sensor going out on me....any other thoughts?? or suggestions??
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
oh...and i had no idea the z32/z31 transmissions would fit the ka24 engine. and i forgot to ask....wouldnt a standalone ems do the rtick for gettin rid of all the un-needed electronics like the c.a.n. and electric throttle? i have never used an e.m.s so i am curious...
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
The earlier qr's had some problems from the getgo. Nissan did a few recalls. Basically (from what I remember) the qr does not use an egr, but what it does is it uses valve overlap to suck some of the exhaust gases into the combustion chamber mimicking the egr's function and thus replacing it. This proved to be a problem w/earlier engines because the 1st catalytic converter is attached to the header and the vaccum would suck in some of the catalytic material into the combustion chamber. After a while this caused some oil consumption issues and over time engine failure. Nissan fixed this by replacing the header/cat combo w/a header-only replacement.
The 2ndary butterflies issue was a mis-torque or badly design screws issue. Basically, the butterflies near the intake are attached by two screws each (ala ka24de). Over time w/vibrations, these would become loose, detach, get sucked into the engine and reack some havoc as you'd imagine.
The z32 and z31 transmissions don't fit the ka24de directly. You need an adaptor plate (mazworks, among others) which lets you attach it to the ka or sr block. The z32 transmission has an extended shifter mechanism or shortened (can't remeber which) and does not come through the shifter hole. It also has a different output shaft on the tail I think. The z31 transmission does come out of the shifter hole and does have the correct tail shaft and appropriate length to allow the use of the ka's driveshaft.
This of course would not be a problem w/the qr block since it has a dedicated bellhousing in the frontier engine.
The frontier qr block/sentra head combo sounds tempting, but I believe the frontier's engine is the previous generation (before the revision) I say this from looking at the year's exploded diagram which still lists the older header/cat combo as the earlier qr's (on a side note, i'm pretty sure the header is the same in altima/sentra/frontier (in earlier engines) proving that the header/manifolds work in rwd applications.
The ecu would indeed get rid of all the electronics you mention. You could also drive the solenoids responsibles for the 2ndary butterflies using an output from the ECU. I do believe like I said that the newest MS allows for electronic drive-by wire but this could be remedied by a mechanical tb if you felt like it.
The iron block inline sixes are a cool swap, but even w/some redistribution of weight (battery in back, no ac, no ps) the swap ends up being nose heavy. People will say otherwise and that 50/50 is achievable, but not w/o sacrificing amenities or compromising a few things. If you are set into 6 cylinders, you really can't beat nissan's vq, toyota's camry engine, ford's sho, ford's mondeo/lincoln ls engine, gm's shortstar, or the newer cadillac's v6. Or even older buick's GNX clones or some iteration of pushrod v6's. As for v8's the ls are the animal to beat, followed by some older carb'd setups and in my opinion a light toyota 1uz followed by nissan's heavier vh, vk, and ford/yamaha/volvo engine. I'm probably forgetting a few, but those are the ones i've looked into the most.
The 2ndary butterflies issue was a mis-torque or badly design screws issue. Basically, the butterflies near the intake are attached by two screws each (ala ka24de). Over time w/vibrations, these would become loose, detach, get sucked into the engine and reack some havoc as you'd imagine.
The z32 and z31 transmissions don't fit the ka24de directly. You need an adaptor plate (mazworks, among others) which lets you attach it to the ka or sr block. The z32 transmission has an extended shifter mechanism or shortened (can't remeber which) and does not come through the shifter hole. It also has a different output shaft on the tail I think. The z31 transmission does come out of the shifter hole and does have the correct tail shaft and appropriate length to allow the use of the ka's driveshaft.
This of course would not be a problem w/the qr block since it has a dedicated bellhousing in the frontier engine.
The frontier qr block/sentra head combo sounds tempting, but I believe the frontier's engine is the previous generation (before the revision) I say this from looking at the year's exploded diagram which still lists the older header/cat combo as the earlier qr's (on a side note, i'm pretty sure the header is the same in altima/sentra/frontier (in earlier engines) proving that the header/manifolds work in rwd applications.
The ecu would indeed get rid of all the electronics you mention. You could also drive the solenoids responsibles for the 2ndary butterflies using an output from the ECU. I do believe like I said that the newest MS allows for electronic drive-by wire but this could be remedied by a mechanical tb if you felt like it.
The iron block inline sixes are a cool swap, but even w/some redistribution of weight (battery in back, no ac, no ps) the swap ends up being nose heavy. People will say otherwise and that 50/50 is achievable, but not w/o sacrificing amenities or compromising a few things. If you are set into 6 cylinders, you really can't beat nissan's vq, toyota's camry engine, ford's sho, ford's mondeo/lincoln ls engine, gm's shortstar, or the newer cadillac's v6. Or even older buick's GNX clones or some iteration of pushrod v6's. As for v8's the ls are the animal to beat, followed by some older carb'd setups and in my opinion a light toyota 1uz followed by nissan's heavier vh, vk, and ford/yamaha/volvo engine. I'm probably forgetting a few, but those are the ones i've looked into the most.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (Chingon)
well...dam...i guess the minor issues like power steering and a/c could probably be solved easily...i think this might be something we see in the future. so using the older block, the 200hp version pec-v head wont bolt up? well if not the 175hp version would still be b****in in the s13 with the ka24 trans and maybe a quick gear set installed. so...just for theory, lets make a dream list..
wrecked frontier with qr25 175hp or 200hp version qr25 longblockadapter plate for trans of choicecustom driveshaft engine management systemcustom intake (i imagine the frontier intake sux balls)custom header (unless aftermarket for the frontier is out there)
install and do burnouts...
i like this idea more and more when i think about it. its a u.s. engine and its got good n/a potential. any other thoughts on this theory. pros vs cons?
wrecked frontier with qr25 175hp or 200hp version qr25 longblockadapter plate for trans of choicecustom driveshaft engine management systemcustom intake (i imagine the frontier intake sux balls)custom header (unless aftermarket for the frontier is out there)
install and do burnouts...
i like this idea more and more when i think about it. its a u.s. engine and its got good n/a potential. any other thoughts on this theory. pros vs cons?
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liquid_cool
- Posts: 1700
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:02 am
- Car: 1990 Nissan 240SX KA24DE-T swap 8.6:1cr, duelsprings, ti retainers,supertech pistons, K1 H-beems balanced internals ect ect
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
im my opinion...yes you can put any engine into any car you wanted.....if you have the money!....realisticly..the fab/swapp price to get this running with the engine your talking about (Due to limited support) would make this a no-deal for most on the street..with the availibility of sr20's and the rb searies engines for 2k and under..this is not a finacially viable contender...this build would cost well over 6k from the info gatherd...for 6k i can pop in a ls1 Blownout pushin 350hp easy...its a cool idea..if ya have the coin for it..if..you have the coin.
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (liquid_cool)
well...yeah the money vs power output would probably not make the swap worth it, and as for the sr motor...i read too many negative things about it. what is it..205 crank hp? big whoop. the rb's and 1/2jz's are too heavy for what i am looking for. yeah the sr has plenty of aftermarket support but hey..there was a time when the sr engine was in the same boat as the ka engine with little support and now the ka is getting more popular and more recognized and the sr has limitless parts available. i do belive there will be a day when this swap is more mainstream and cost effective. when? hell if i know but i do know that there are people such as myself that dont want a 400hp car that cant be driven due to some kid puttin all the name brand parts he can afford but not knowing how to set up a well balanced car. anyone with a turbo can get high hp but if this swap were more cost effective and i was looking for low 200hp level (witch i am) with a naturally aspirated engine, i think the qr25 would be a great daily driver with a well balanced suspension and a good tune. there have been plenty of sr swaps in my area and none of them are anything to write home about even with the boost turned up a little..now i have never been in a built sr powered car but i'd say it would be cool. not to repeat myself but i need good n/a power with a good power curve to play on the curvy roads in my area. theoretically the qr25 should be one of the best n/a low hp choices for an s13 or s12 even....awaiting commentsliquid_cool wrote:im my opinion...yes you can put any engine into any car you wanted.....if you have the money!....realisticly..the fab/swapp price to get this running with the engine your talking about (Due to limited support) would make this a no-deal for most on the street..with the availibility of sr20's and the rb searies engines for 2k and under..this is not a finacially viable contender...this build would cost well over 6k from the info gatherd...for 6k i can pop in a ls1 Blownout pushin 350hp easy...its a cool idea..if ya have the coin for it..if..you have the coin.
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liquid_cool
- Posts: 1700
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:02 am
- Car: 1990 Nissan 240SX KA24DE-T swap 8.6:1cr, duelsprings, ti retainers,supertech pistons, K1 H-beems balanced internals ect ect
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
you know...id rather do that silvertop toyota swapp...high rpm...plenty of power uptop where needed..its the perfect motor for a canyon shooter!..in reality..you only need 2nd and 3rd gears for most canyons..man that would be a blast..but i wonder if the 20v 4ag motor can push a s13...humm..its cheep to..you can get one from japan for 1.5k with harness and ecu..
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
and just for anyone who cares...i for one do not have the money to do this swap, if i did i would totally do it and can probably fabricate alot of needed parts myself...i am only wanting to know peoples thoughts as far as a possible future replacement for the old ka24 (witch is what i have-and its a single cam) for either n/a or boosted cars. the qr25 has alot of good engineering into it and some bad too, but given the weight and nissans use in plenty of cars across the globe, maybe it could be a contender for people needing something less and lightweight for a good 50/50 balance...
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
the 20v enigne is a great engine from what i read anyway, i havent done alot of research on it but i think it could be an awsome alternative for the ka24, i'm not one who says keep it in the family and that its not cool to do toyota/nissan hybrids. us import guys got our start from the old hot rodders...they would search junkyards for things that would be cool, regardless of brand. what kind of power does the 20v come with factory? hows the torque on this engine and what about weight? as you said, would it pull the ol s13?
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
well...dam...i guess the minor issues like power steering and a/c could probably be solved easily...i think this might be something we see in the future. so using the older block, the 200hp version pec-v head wont bolt up?
I don't know if it won't bolt up (it more than likely would bolt up) there were I think some block revisions so I can't say 100 % that it would bolt up, but i'd bet on it a good 80-85%
well if not the 175hp version would still be b****in in the s13 with the ka24 trans and maybe a quick gear set installed. so...just for theory, lets make a dream list..
wrecked frontier with qr25 175hp or 200hp version qr25 longblockadapter plate for trans of choice (not needed, use the qr frontier transmission or the z31/z32 transmission w/frontier bellhousing
custom driveshaft If z31 transmission works, probably not needed (stocker would work)
engine management systemfor quick and dirty hassless yeah..
custom intake (i imagine the frontier intake sux balls)frontier intake is a cumbersome piece of ...... so yeah, custom on that end.
custom header (unless aftermarket for the frontier is out there).
Like I said, the older setup was a neat design (minus the cat) so if the newer one kept a smilar geometry, I'm sure the qr's would work. From the looks of the older manifold, it seems like it's identical to both sentra and frontier, which means it lends to both fwd and rwd. Another option is to buy one of the older headers, cut the cat off and reweld a collector on there. Cheap and simple.
install and do burnouts...
i like this idea more and more when i think about it. its a u.s. engine and its got good n/a potential. any other thoughts on this theory. pros vs cons?
As for the 4ag, it's a neat engine, one of my toyota favorites. For the s-chassis however, the mr2 supercharged variant is more suited since it has a good amount of torque and nearest in characteristics to the ka that's in there. The silvertop and blacktop are cool too, but even most 4ag guys will tell you that the blue or red top are just as capable. Most guys don't care for the extra valve and the itb's setup is swapable. Can't remember if either silver or blacktop hit 200 hp in stock trim, but 175-180 seems most realistic....torque's probably in the 140 lb-ft range and that's being generous.
remeber that it becomes harder and costlier to extract power off small displacemet units, the 4ag formula atlantic engine for example is 240 hp na w/around a cost of 7 or 17 k $
While it's one light son of a b****, it's also closed deck iron block, so it'd be interesting to compare weights vs the qr25de (which is still slightly heavier than a ca18de (iron closed deck ). If you want light and capable and reliable and cheap, the ca18det is quickly becoming a forgotten animal.
a turbo qr25 just seems what would be expected in a s16 silvia :P
Modified by Chingon at 7:06 PM 8/18/2009
I don't know if it won't bolt up (it more than likely would bolt up) there were I think some block revisions so I can't say 100 % that it would bolt up, but i'd bet on it a good 80-85%
well if not the 175hp version would still be b****in in the s13 with the ka24 trans and maybe a quick gear set installed. so...just for theory, lets make a dream list..
wrecked frontier with qr25 175hp or 200hp version qr25 longblockadapter plate for trans of choice (not needed, use the qr frontier transmission or the z31/z32 transmission w/frontier bellhousing
custom driveshaft If z31 transmission works, probably not needed (stocker would work)
engine management systemfor quick and dirty hassless yeah..
custom intake (i imagine the frontier intake sux balls)frontier intake is a cumbersome piece of ...... so yeah, custom on that end.
custom header (unless aftermarket for the frontier is out there).
Like I said, the older setup was a neat design (minus the cat) so if the newer one kept a smilar geometry, I'm sure the qr's would work. From the looks of the older manifold, it seems like it's identical to both sentra and frontier, which means it lends to both fwd and rwd. Another option is to buy one of the older headers, cut the cat off and reweld a collector on there. Cheap and simple.
install and do burnouts...
i like this idea more and more when i think about it. its a u.s. engine and its got good n/a potential. any other thoughts on this theory. pros vs cons?
As for the 4ag, it's a neat engine, one of my toyota favorites. For the s-chassis however, the mr2 supercharged variant is more suited since it has a good amount of torque and nearest in characteristics to the ka that's in there. The silvertop and blacktop are cool too, but even most 4ag guys will tell you that the blue or red top are just as capable. Most guys don't care for the extra valve and the itb's setup is swapable. Can't remember if either silver or blacktop hit 200 hp in stock trim, but 175-180 seems most realistic....torque's probably in the 140 lb-ft range and that's being generous.
remeber that it becomes harder and costlier to extract power off small displacemet units, the 4ag formula atlantic engine for example is 240 hp na w/around a cost of 7 or 17 k $
While it's one light son of a b****, it's also closed deck iron block, so it'd be interesting to compare weights vs the qr25de (which is still slightly heavier than a ca18de (iron closed deck ). If you want light and capable and reliable and cheap, the ca18det is quickly becoming a forgotten animal.
a turbo qr25 just seems what would be expected in a s16 silvia :P
Modified by Chingon at 7:06 PM 8/18/2009
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (Chingon)
well, i thought about the ca18det for a while but i'm not convinced its the engine i am looking for. as for the toyota engines...i did a little research and i'm not impressed at all really. i am looking for a 4 cylinder engine that can reach roughly 210-220 whp and 200 ft pounds of torque that is close to the ka24 or qr25 weight and something that can be reliable daily driven. i dont mind the doing some fabrication if the enigne is worth the trouble and i am capable of swapping myself. i would like to keep it in the nissan family if such engine exist, but not afraid to go outside the brand. i have searched and so far the 07+ spec-v qr25 seems lke it could be the engine i am looking for. i am curious about the truck qr25 and the spec-v qr25 differences tho. it may be cheaper to get a wrecked truck and maybe do a head swap or just find a set of aftermarket cams and install them along with a spec-v computer...i have yet to find any real info on that subject tho. i do know the spec-v crank is fully counterweighted so i dont know if the truck bottom end is up to the task of revving to 7k like the stock spec-v. but like i said...i am looking for an engine capable of 210-220whp with torque not far from that...any suggestions????
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
well, there are several options. If you must keep it in the family and be 4 cylinders anything besides the qr25de is going to run you deep. NA sr20's are capable of doing it. NA ka's have hit ~200 hp in NA form and I've heard claims of either 250 or 350 in racing trim. Either way it's probably costlier than the qr25de. For your power goals the vq30de or 35de seems like the cheapest alternative and i'm dead-positive it's lighter than an NA ka or turbo sr.
Don't know if sr's have lost some of their charm due to newer alternatives, but the gti-r option is no joke. You get the right head (no rocker arm bs), itbs, and I think a t-28....stocker was around 225-240 maybe, which puts it up there w/the blacktop or s15 engine, but i'm sure at lower boost levels. This meant serious cash a while back so don't know how prices are right now. The block itself may be different so you have to do some homework to get the head and electronics to fit a rwd block.
If you're willing to bastardize, you've gotta go where 4 cylinder NA are the norm, which means honda. The f20c and f22c have been done at this point and it gets you 240 hp stock. I've done some reading on some of the newer hybrids these guys pull, and the k24 is by far the most attractive. There are many engines that rotate the wrong way in the honda lineup, but am unsure if this is one of them. I believe that this can go into rwd using a crv block (if crv is longitudinally and not transversly mounted). I know the k20 hits 240 hp in integra type R form so even the rsx type S engine is worth a look.
I beleive the above engine may be replicated in the qr25de, it has many similar characteristics to make the same power.
Toyota still makes some cool 4 bangers but nothing to write home about (displacement is too small). GMC with their ecotec and ford with their zetec are also tempting alternatives. They are everywhere, they have huge aftermarket, cheap, reliable, newish design (think sr20 tech), etc... The redline and solstice give you rwd options and nice trannies. The ecotecs have big "block" displacements too (2.4 last time i checked). In NA form though, you're looking to dump some cash to get any into the 240 hp level (look at what British racing amateurs do for ideas).
There's always rotary power too.... I'd have a look into renesis swaps if they're out there. The older s4/s5 NA's can hit your power goals, but don't know if there's enough ppl running them out there to call them reliable. The renesis gets 220 maybe more in the newer ones. Turbo ones are tricky to get right and i've yet to seen 300k miles out of one. Light, small (rx-8 is considered mid-engine 'cuz engine sits so far back) and perhaps even cheap (rx-8 sold well (many out there), and I think most "tuners" have turned the other way). While at it, take a look at mazda na 4's or turbo 4's
Don't know if sr's have lost some of their charm due to newer alternatives, but the gti-r option is no joke. You get the right head (no rocker arm bs), itbs, and I think a t-28....stocker was around 225-240 maybe, which puts it up there w/the blacktop or s15 engine, but i'm sure at lower boost levels. This meant serious cash a while back so don't know how prices are right now. The block itself may be different so you have to do some homework to get the head and electronics to fit a rwd block.
If you're willing to bastardize, you've gotta go where 4 cylinder NA are the norm, which means honda. The f20c and f22c have been done at this point and it gets you 240 hp stock. I've done some reading on some of the newer hybrids these guys pull, and the k24 is by far the most attractive. There are many engines that rotate the wrong way in the honda lineup, but am unsure if this is one of them. I believe that this can go into rwd using a crv block (if crv is longitudinally and not transversly mounted). I know the k20 hits 240 hp in integra type R form so even the rsx type S engine is worth a look.
I beleive the above engine may be replicated in the qr25de, it has many similar characteristics to make the same power.
Toyota still makes some cool 4 bangers but nothing to write home about (displacement is too small). GMC with their ecotec and ford with their zetec are also tempting alternatives. They are everywhere, they have huge aftermarket, cheap, reliable, newish design (think sr20 tech), etc... The redline and solstice give you rwd options and nice trannies. The ecotecs have big "block" displacements too (2.4 last time i checked). In NA form though, you're looking to dump some cash to get any into the 240 hp level (look at what British racing amateurs do for ideas).
There's always rotary power too.... I'd have a look into renesis swaps if they're out there. The older s4/s5 NA's can hit your power goals, but don't know if there's enough ppl running them out there to call them reliable. The renesis gets 220 maybe more in the newer ones. Turbo ones are tricky to get right and i've yet to seen 300k miles out of one. Light, small (rx-8 is considered mid-engine 'cuz engine sits so far back) and perhaps even cheap (rx-8 sold well (many out there), and I think most "tuners" have turned the other way). While at it, take a look at mazda na 4's or turbo 4's
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (Chingon)
wait....the 350z/g35 engine is lighter than the ka24 and sr20det?
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
To quote cool-aid man.....Oooh YEAH
zerothread/299879
zer...age=2
zerothread/425965
ls1 is probably around the same weight or sliglhtly more... ~40 lbs...
I'm surprised you're surprised, both swaps have been around for maybe 3 years at least?
zerothread/299879
zer...age=2
zerothread/425965
ls1 is probably around the same weight or sliglhtly more... ~40 lbs...
I'm surprised you're surprised, both swaps have been around for maybe 3 years at least?
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (Chingon)
yeah...i kinda just decided to do the n/a thing and started researching possible swaps like 2-3 months ago so i did not know the vq was lighter. it seems like a good possibility as far as a good swap for the power/weight ratio, i am curious though, how much the engine/transmission combo weighs together (350z 6 speed) and what other transmisson options there are. i wil have to research that a little more cause i'd like to know also if the older mid 90's vq can accept 350z cams or heads and to find out how the s13 coupe would handle with the v6 dropped in between her legs lol...thanks for the info and if you have any other suggestions or something you think may help me out with my engine decision, please let me know. you have been very helpful. thanks again
Re: for argument sake...and to see different opinons... (nisstek2)
the transmission is kind of a pig i'm thinking 100+ lbs, it bolts to older vq blocks and newer ones just fine, fwd or rwd it doesn't matter. You do get a 6th gear and am sure some heavy torque capabilities (think 350z's tt or supercharged). Honestly going w/another transmission is a bit of a waste of time since the 350z's have been going for around 300 bux The older ones are cheaper 'cuz they had grinding synchros (no mechanical problems that i'm aware) but nissan corrected it and you can actually change the parts your self.nisstek2 wrote:yeah...i kinda just decided to do the n/a thing and started researching possible swaps like 2-3 months ago so i did not know the vq was lighter. it seems like a good possibility as far as a good swap for the power/weight ratio, i am curious though, how much the engine/transmission combo weighs together (350z 6 speed) and what other transmisson options there are. i wil have to research that a little more cause i'd like to know also if the older mid 90's vq can accept 350z cams or heads and to find out how the s13 coupe would handle with the v6 dropped in between her legs lol...thanks for the info and if you have any other suggestions or something you think may help me out with my engine decision, please let me know. you have been very helpful. thanks again
I think the newer vq head bolts to the older vq block or vice versa (can't remember). This nets you a 3.2 however and some crazy compression. Look up member broaner and his swap. He managed to get a 3.0 going and was pulling around 200-220 at the wheels (remember drivetrain losses and this is older maxima engine mid-90's). He was also building a 3.2 last i remember but doubt it got anywhere. The older vq could run on the maxima ecu I'd imagine and you wouldn't have to deal w/all the newer crap. Broaner went Megasquirt I think. Mounts are pretty easy to fab too.
PS: older and even newer maxima vq's are like 300 bux at the wreckers.