FMIC options

[Reffer]

Hi. I have now sold my old "home-made" FMIC and I'm looking for a new one. The old one was working just fine, but I want to try to see if an other could give me a little more power. I just can't get enough:-) This september I did a dyno-run and the result was 327 rwhp. Chart can be seen here for those who are interested: http://home.no.net/reffer/dyno...3.htm But the question is what kind of a FMIC should I buy this time?Right now the options are:Blitz: Cool name, but I'm not quite sure about the core size,piping (2", 2,5 og 3") and the cooling and flow capabilities.

HKS: Strong alternative. Not sure about the piping if it is 2", 2,5 og 3".

Greddy: R-spec is says to flow and cool better than the V-spec. Anyone who has tried this and can give me some usefull info?

Hybrid: Looks good, but does it have the same flow and cooling capabilities as the ones abow? How is the hot-pipe routed with this kit? Is it routed done below the air-filter or is it routed the same way as the stock piping (before the IC)?

Apexi GT Spec: Quite big core, but this might lead to more lag. Also I'm a bit worried about how the piping is routed. I have made a new hotpipe that I would like to use with the new FMIC. If you look at this picture http://home.no.net/reffer/Motorrom_lite.jpg you can see that I don't have much space left....

I would really appreciate if anyone could send me some info/facts/ideas about what FMIC I should choose:-) Regards, Rune

[themadscientist]

Stock GT-R is badass.

[quiksilvia]

thats a front mount right? can it compete with the others too? not trying to thread jack....

[MarkEmark]

Hi. I have now sold my old "home-made" FMIC and I'm looking for a new one. The old one was working just fine, but I want to try to see if an other could give me a little more power. I just can't get enough:-) This september I did a dyno-run and the result was 327 rwhp. Chart can be seen here for those who are interested: http://home.no.net/reffer/dyno...3.htm But the question is what kind of a FMIC should I buy this time?Right now the options are:Blitz: Cool name, but I'm not quite sure about the core size,piping (2", 2,5 og 3") and the cooling and flow capabilities.

HKS: Strong alternative. Not sure about the piping if it is 2", 2,5 og 3".

Greddy: R-spec is says to flow and cool better than the V-spec. Anyone who has tried this and can give me some usefull info?

Hybrid: Looks good, but does it have the same flow and cooling capabilities as the ones abow? How is the hot-pipe routed with this kit? Is it routed done below the air-filter or is it routed the same way as the stock piping (before the IC)?

Apexi GT Spec: Quite big core, but this might lead to more lag. Also I'm a bit worried about how the piping is routed. I have made a new hotpipe that I would like to use with the new FMIC. If you look at this picture http://home.no.net/reffer/Motorrom_lite.jpg you can see that I don't have much space left....

I would really appreciate if anyone could send me some info/facts/ideas about what FMIC I should choose:-) Regards, Rune

I still don't understand why everyone goes sooo huge when getting a FMIC--is it for looks/bragging rights? A properly sized and efficient intercooler does not need to be that big--it seems like the huge size would be more of a detriment due to weight and lag.

Straight from Corky Bell's site,What factors affect efficiency of an Air-to-Air Intercooler?Frontal area: This is a rapidly decreasing function. If the proper core size is used, then doubling it will definitely not double the efficiency. More likely, doubling the core would raise the efficiency about 5% and cost twice the necessary amount and add substantially to the weight.

Plate area: Plate Area (the sum of the Core-Plate Area which is exposed to the Atmosphere) is directly proportional to the frontal area and the thickness. Thickness, however, is a double-edged sword. With the greater thickness, the plate area increases but less ambient air can penetrate the thicker core to offer cooling.

Ambient air quantity: It is very important to insure that air coming in the snout of the car will actually go through the intercooler.

I'm going with this very nice unit from JGStools.com in about 3 weeks for my birthday. Why not something like this?

19"W (26" total w/ tanks) x 8"H x 2.875" D (3.00" total w/ tanks)

450HP @ 70% eff. (20mph wind) & 0.625 psi Pressure Drop

TIG welded end tanks, hose barb outlets (2" inlet, 2.25" outlet)

And it's more efficient than the same size spearco.

If this intercooler is good up to 450 hp--Whats the purpose in getting something 2x the size and the weight?

Anyway--I'm just wondering everyone's logic when getting these huge 12" x 3" thick x 26" long intercoolers...

PS--Rune, your car looks beautiful. Where are you located in Europe (or Australia?)

[themadscientist]

Just do a full throttle blast down the road at full sustained boost then pull over, feel the "hot" side, it will be hot as hell, now feel the "cold" side, a properly sized intercooler should be as cold as a coke coming out of the soda machine on a nice temperate day. If it isn't it's too small. I'll be using an air/water intercooler on my latest Skyline. It's a sleeper and newbs always equate a huge FMIC with a fast car so when they don't see one that will set the hook:evilhaha The OE GT-R core is supposed to be good for 400hp, not a bad low-buck option.

[MarkEmark]

Just do a full throttle blast down the road at full sustained boost then pull over, feel the "hot" side, it will be hot as hell, now feel the "cold" side, a properly sized intercooler should be as cold as a coke coming out of the soda machine on a nice temperate day. If it isn't it's too small. I'll be using an air/water intercooler on my latest Skyline. It's a sleeper and newbs always equate a huge FMIC with a fast car so when they don't see one that will set the hook:evilhaha The OE GT-R core is supposed to be good for 400hp, not a bad low-buck option.

Low buck, eh? How much we talkin'? What are the dimensions?I've never seen a GTR core on ebay.

[themadscientist]

$400 used. they are about http://www.vivagarage.com/perf...a.jpgthat big

[MarkEmark]

$400?!?

No thanks--not for a used, hard to find cooler.

Thanks for the pic though.

[Reffer]

I still don't understand why everyone goes sooo huge when getting a FMIC--is it for looks/bragging rights? A properly sized and efficient intercooler does not need to be that big--it seems like the huge size would be more of a detriment due to weight and lag.

Straight from Corky Bell's site,What factors affect efficiency of an Air-to-Air Intercooler?Frontal area: This is a rapidly decreasing function. If the proper core size is used, then doubling it will definitely not double the efficiency. More likely, doubling the core would raise the efficiency about 5% and cost twice the necessary amount and add substantially to the weight.

Plate area: Plate Area (the sum of the Core-Plate Area which is exposed to the Atmosphere) is directly proportional to the frontal area and the thickness. Thickness, however, is a double-edged sword. With the greater thickness, the plate area increases but less ambient air can penetrate the thicker core to offer cooling.

Ambient air quantity: It is very important to insure that air coming in the snout of the car will actually go through the intercooler.

I'm going with this very nice unit from JGStools.com in about 3 weeks for my birthday. Why not something like this?

19"W (26" total w/ tanks) x 8"H x 2.875" D (3.00" total w/ tanks)

450HP @ 70% eff. (20mph wind) & 0.625 psi Pressure Drop

TIG welded end tanks, hose barb outlets (2" inlet, 2.25" outlet)

And it's more efficient than the same size spearco.

If this intercooler is good up to 450 hp--Whats the purpose in getting something 2x the size and the weight?

Anyway--I'm just wondering everyone's logic when getting these huge 12" x 3" thick x 26" long intercoolers...

PS--Rune, your car looks beautiful. Where are you located in Europe (or Australia?)

I agree that the bigger is not always the better. My previous core was 185H-510W-70D with 2" piping, which is not far from the size of the core that you are refering to. I'm not 100% sure that the new and most likely bigger FMIC will give me any more power or anything else for that matter, but if I try then I will know for sure Not the cheapest way to find out, but when was car-tuning a cheap/inexpensive hobby? :rolleyes I was satiesfied with the hp result from the dyno-run, but I had hoped for more torque (440Nm). This might be one of the reasons why I did this crazy thing to sell my FMIC. (My boost pressure was 1,45 until 5k and then down to 1,35 from 6k and out.)

Both Greddy R-spl and Apexi GT Spec has special fins in their core. They both mean that this help a great deal when it comes to cooling and flow. Any comments on that?

Nice to hear that you like my car , I'm located in Norway.

[C-Kwik]

Mark, I think you put way too much emphasis on the additional volume a larger intercooler has. While it does slow down response, you'ld have to have a monstrous intercooler for you to even notice. Pressure drops are much more of a concern than volume. Ask anyone with an SR, or a Supra who has upgraded to a FMIC from a sidemount. They will likely tell you they felt little to no change in response. I felt no change when my friend changd his on a Supra.

[MarkEmark]

Well, then to each his own, I guess.

I'd rather a smaller, efficient and lightweight intercooler that doesn't require hacking up and down the bumper (and sometimes removal of the bumper support).

I too am concerned with pressure drop--which is why I'm wary of all the ebay ones which DON'T post pressure drops....BUT, if you're reading the boost off of the intake manifold anyway, then one only needs to adjust the boost controller to get what he wants at the manifold to compensate for pressure drop--say, for example, if before intercooling mine ran 10 psi, and after intercooling it ran 9.5 psi at the intake manifold with the boost controller untouched--then I'd just up the boost so that the intake mani was seeing 10 psi instead of 9.5 psi, and the air entering the intercooler would be 10.5 psi instead of 10 psi. Right?

[C-Kwik]

not exactly. While .5 psi of pressure drop is acceptable, if say we were to compare it to somrthing a bit more drastic, say....2 psi, then you have to conside the turbo is not working harder. as always, I bring it back to how much exhaust energy has to be used and how much backpressure the engine has to fight to create the desired boost.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your approach. I just like to bring up and analyze all aspects of the debate.

[MarkEmark]

not exactly. While .5 psi of pressure drop is acceptable, if say we were to compare it to somrthing a bit more drastic, say....2 psi, then you have to conside the turbo is not working harder. as always, I bring it back to how much exhaust energy has to be used and how much backpressure the engine has to fight to create the desired boost.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your approach. I just like to bring up and analyze all aspects of the debate.

Well--Hypotheticals often present a cogent argument--but they're hypotheticals for a reason.

I know for a fact that the i/c I want has the specs:

450HP @ 70% eff. (20mph wind) & 0.625 psi Pressure Drop

So I don't need worry about a 2 psi pressure drop. However--Doesn't the pressure drop vary, obviously, with both the efficiency and how much cfm is being pushed through the intercooler (which is obviously increased with more boost?)?So at 10 psi, the pressure drop should be even less, possibly negligible?

Again--I wish I could find a cheaper intercooler with the same efficiency/similar specs--but ALMOST all of the i/cs on ebay don't publish specs, and those that do don't seem too reputable.

[C-Kwik]

Yes, the higher CFM that is being forced through the I/C, the more pressure drop you get.

As far as efficiency, the biggest factors are going to be the size of the core and the total cross sectional area of the channels. There are some differences in turbulator density both on the charge and ambient sides, but they will probably be similar for the most part. A large exception to this is the Greddy V-Spec Cores that use grooves within many sub-channels to increase the surface area but essentially keep most of the channels quite open. But for the most part, intercoolers use charge side turblators similar to those found on the ambient side of the core. I know Turbonetics/Spearco cores use a slightly different turbulator set-up in their tube and fin I/C's as well. You probably won't see much more than a 10% difference in efficiency and .5 psi in pressure drop between I/C's of similar dimensions. Hopefully that might help you decide if you might want to use a ebay core...