Fix Thread turned into Re-build thread! (built rb25 neo)

[sickness14]

UPDATE

The motor is being pulled out today.

Ive gotten a quote for new ACL Race bearings, and machine work on the crank already. Hopefully i will not run into anything unexpected I.E. Need new crank or anything like that.

I have also been told that i need a new oil pump because if metal shavings from the spun bearing get into it they wont come out. I've got an N1 pump in there right now! like $375 to replace ! ouch. not happy.

I'll keep everyone posted but the car is out of commission again

-John

[Cjmartz2k]

Wow, weird. I just spent the past 15 minutes looking through pages 2-6 of threads trying to find your thread and bump it for an update, and you went and hid it on the top!

Sucks man. I've heard bad things about the N1 pump from a couple people, but no first hand experience. Just curious, do you have the longer "fixed" crank snout? The motor I took apart for you didn't.

[sickness14]

Wow, weird. I just spent the past 15 minutes looking through pages 2-6 of threads trying to find your thread and bump it for an update, and you went and hid it on the top!

Sucks man. I've heard bad things about the N1 pump from a couple people, but no first hand experience. Just curious, do you have the longer "fixed" crank snout? The motor I took apart for you didn't.

Hey, yeah the crank is from an R33 rb26 so its the longer version. I'll have to look into the n1 pump deal. could it cause more problems than it would do good? i know these things have oil starvation problems as it is with too much oil being in the head. not sure it it would be too much pressure.

Good to hear from ya! oh and thanks for the coil packs btw. they look great.

[mott6904]

Dude if you just replaced the pump and you only have a noise in the bottome end then i would just take the pump apart and inspect the gear to see if it is scored at all. If not than i would pack the pump and put it back together.

[Cjmartz2k]

Hey, yeah the crank is from an R33 rb26 so its the longer version. I'll have to look into the n1 pump deal. could it cause more problems than it would do good? i know these things have oil starvation problems as it is with too much oil being in the head. not sure it it would be too much pressure.

Good to hear from ya! oh and thanks for the coil packs btw. they look great.

Gotcha, and no problem on the coil packs. More than fair trade for the head parts

I'm pretty skeptical on the oil in the head "problem" BTW.

[ANVIL]

sucks to see what you go through. hopefully it wont be as bad as you think.

on a side note, nismoparts.com sells n1 oilpumps for under $200

http://www.nismoparts.com/cata...#1647

[sickness14]

sucks to see what you go through. hopefully it wont be as bad as you think.

on a side note, nismoparts.com sells n1 oilpumps for under $200

http://www.nismoparts.com/cata...#1647

GREAT FIND! thank you so much.

Another question though: How is the timing set with aftermarket cams? Ive read that the TDC marks dont apply to timing aftermarket cams, and that you have to see where the top of the lobe is to know where to set it. are adjustable cam gears necessary to set this correctly?

I just want to make sure that its right, after all the motor is coming apart.

Also, does anyone know what i decent PULL TYPE clutch is that i can upgrade to? Im finding them all $1800 + ! i do not want to do a pull to push conversion. I like having the stronger system. the clutch disc has been upgraded but the stock clutch cover (pressure plate) is still there and its 11 yrs old!

-John

[Carl H]

just go to the push style...pull is better for drivability but you wont be able to find a clutch thats worth a damn for less than 1k.

[Shocker]

GREAT FIND! thank you so much.

Another question though: How is the timing set with aftermarket cams? Ive read that the TDC marks dont apply to timing aftermarket cams, and that you have to see where the top of the lobe is to know where to set it. are adjustable cam gears necessary to set this correctly?

I just want to make sure that its right, after all the motor is coming apart.

Also, does anyone know what i decent PULL TYPE clutch is that i can upgrade to? Im finding them all $1800 + ! i do not want to do a pull to push conversion. I like having the stronger system. the clutch disc has been upgraded but the stock clutch cover (pressure plate) is still there and its 11 yrs old!

-John

Timing is set just like normal with any aftermarket cam for the RB. Only thing that changes is the lift and the duration, not the physical engine timing. In other words the install just like stock. However you can alter that with aftermarket cam gears which you can clock, advanced or retarded to fit your setup. Adjustable cam gears can be useful in some cases depending on the response your looking to get out of the engine.

[eh?]

UPDATE

I have also been told that i need a new oil pump because if metal shavings from the spun bearing get into it they wont come out. I've got an N1 pump in there right now! like $375 to replace ! ouch. not happy.

-John

I've never opened an rb oil pump but judging by pics that can't be true. The entire oil pump can be disassembled.

[sickness14]

Thanks guys.

so i will take the pump apart and clean it out! the transmission came out today, the motor will follow soon after. its already disconnected and ready to lift out

i cant wait to find out what happened to it. im hoping for an easy fix.

I now know why the previous owner gave up.

-John

[eh?]

The actual disassembly of the oil pump is in the R33 FSM. See page EN-132.

[sickness14]

Thanks.

The engine is finally out, here are the pics




Modified by sickness14 at 11:05 AM 8/15/2009

[sickness14]

so far, the damage is as follows. Still awaiting the removal of the crank and rods. the head has been removed but i have yet to see it. it is at the shop.

-head is "beat up" according to shop-#6 piston is "shot"-#6 cyl wall has markings, block needs machining-metal shavings in transmission oil-metal shavings in engine oil-probably spun #6 bearing.

the engine probably overheated at one point and ran lean on #6, caused the oil to break down, spin rod bearing and piston ring. piston ring prob broke up and got into combustion chamber, caused piston to be heavily beat up on the top, deep markings in it. rod bearing probably broke up and hit the bottom of the piston, tech said marks on it as well.

this is all hypothetical, i wont have a confirmed answer until we get the rest of the crank, rods, pistons removed and get it all measured out and inspected.

I called the guys at "CP pistons" to see if i can order just one piston. left them a message, will prob hear back tomorrow.

This will probably lead to an entire rebuild of the bottom end, pretty much proving this engine is a piece of s***, therefore the car is a piece of s***, as well as the person that is holding thousands of my hard earned money. He got me alright... and im out of money, cant get to work because i dont have another car, and depressed.

Turbo dreams huh.

-John



Modified by sickness14 at 5:47 PM 5/14/2009
Modified by sickness14 at 7:17 AM 10/30/2009

[Carl H]

man i am so sorry to hear, that sucks to no extent.

[Shocker]

Sucks big time, trust me I know the feeling x3 this is no joke!

Get to the shop and take some pics if you can. I'm interested in seeing this "damage".

Bummer man. big time.

[Cjmartz2k]

Horrible news man. Real sorry to hear abotu it, especially when it looked like things were going so well.

[S14-NEO]

man this is all very depressing news John, wish i had the words to pick up your spirits at a time like this...I dont know you money situation right not, I can only imagine its not too good at the moment given the fact of all the money you've shelled out already. keep your chin up man, there is a light at the end of the tunnel your in..and all NEO's aren't bad my man, its just unfortunate that you got one that had already been molested by someone with no knowledge of what they were doing...

[sickness14]

Thanks guyss.

to all those who do not already know, this car was built by one person who over heated the motor before i bought it. more people had their hands on this motor than there are crayons in the 64 pack.

It overheated once while driving it home from the seller. I thought it was because the fans werent hooked up, and there was not enough coolant in the system, just like the seller said "its cool out, it'll be fine".

It had a loud ticking in the head when i bought it and i didnt know enough at the time to stay away from it, and wound up buying the car out of excitement of what it was, and the thought of how much money i would save on labor because all of the down time of the

I dissassembled the top half of the motor, and replaced it. literally three times, in effort to clear the ticking noise.

I then upgraded several other various components, tuned it myself, and all was well. the ticking stopped.

4 weeks later... Boom. random failure. had the car towed, dissassembled, and came to a conclusion.

the overheating ruined the bottom end. i also believe, due to the neglect of respect in building a car the correct way and breaking it in the correct way, the previous owner raced the car , untuned, and incorrectly timed. (apparent on youtube video of MY CAR racing a Z06 vette, untuned and running 16.5:1 A/F ratio, like it was when i bought the car.

I solved the intermediate and apparent problem (the ticking) which i thought satisfied all that was wrong, which it didnt. The damage was already done.

And now... Inspection of engine dissassembled shows the following:

-Head is salvageable, but #6 cyl has metal bonded to the outer edge of the head opening around that cyl, only on the two sides of the circle, flat spot is protruding higer than the surface of the head, can be machined. Also appears material got under the valves and is bonded to the valve seats, hopefully the seats can be replaced, or saved.

-head will have new valve seals, valve seats, valve guides installed.

-Piston melted around the top rim, material came loose and melted to inside of head on cyl #6, Piston will need to be replaced. piston rings also need to be replaced

-Block has scuffs on it from piston scraping, but salvageable with machine work

-Rods need to be polished where rod bearings are, due to the bearings overheating and scratching rods, but salvageable with machine work

-Crank has a couple of small scuffs on it, but salvageable with machine work

-All bearings, main and rod, need to be replaced. they all turned purple from overheating and have deep grooves in main bearings

This rebuild will be a long one. I expect several months or more without any updates while i repair my life financially. I have to purchase another car, repay debts, and recover from my $16,000 "investment" nightmare.

When this thing is running again, Im going supra hunting.

Pictures will be coming soon, I never let my nico fans down!

Thank you all for the support. Any guidance / comments are welcome. Please dont say that I "should have" done anything. I dont want to hear it. I DID buy a pile of crap, and i WILL make it into something that many will respect, most of all myself.

-John
Modified by sickness14 at 7:08 AM 6/2/2009

[Cjmartz2k]

Wow, that's a lot of carnage. Sorry man. At least most everything is salvagable and I don't have to go looking for another head or something for ya. Get caught up with everything and hit it again hard when your ready. Maybe I'll be swapping mine around the same time your doing yours!

[meet07]

we all learn from our mistakes John. Just so happens that your mistake is bigger than you obviously expected. 1st things 1st......never have a highly modified car unless you have the knowledge to do the work. If not you will end up spending more money than needs be. If you did the work yourself, you would have saved a bunch. Shoot you probably could have rebuilt the entire motor, got injectors, exterior and the whole nine, making like 500 whp. And I also agree with dude above about buying a whole new motor. Im sure with the money you have spent you could have bought a 2jz or saved your money and kept the VW 1.8T you had. Never use your performance car as your daily. This is all that I have learned in the past 7 years or so of modifying my daily. I wish you luck but man did you really mess up........ Maybe next time I see you I can get a lil more convo out of ya.
Modified by meet07 at 2:45 PM 5/18/2009

[sickness14]

we all learn from our mistakes John. Just so happens that your mistake is bigger than you obviously expected. 1st things 1st......never have a highly modified car unless you have the knowledge to do the work. If not you will end up spending more money than needs be. If you did the work yourself, you would have saved a bunch. Shoot you probably could have rebuilt the entire motor, got injectors, exterior and the whole nine, making like 500 whp. And I also agree with dude above about buying a whole new motor. Im sure with the money you have spent you could have bought a 2jz or saved your money and kept the VW 1.8T you had. Never use your performance car as your daily. This is all that I have learned in the past 7 years or so of modifying my daily. I wish you luck but man did you really mess up........ Maybe next time I see you I can get a lil more convo out of ya.

Modified by meet07 at 2:45 PM 5/18/2009

I know all of this. Im rebuilding the motor and keeping it. and will be making 500whp. If i wanted a 2jz i would have bought a supra... and i had a VR6 GTI, not a 1.8T. Im currently purchasing another car.

heres the progress for today: got the car towed home, motor is still at shop. will be getting a price list together soon. as for now, i took some of the harness out and am re-doing it. no wonder the oil pressure light never came on... the connector wiring dead ended in the middle of the harness somewhere.

[Carl H]

did greg not run the ka sensor...thats how i wire harnesses is to use the ka sensor on the ka lower.

[sickness14]

did greg not run the ka sensor...thats how i wire harnesses is to use the ka sensor on the ka lower.

I dont think so.

now dont get me wrong, i can tell which parts of the harness you did, because they look beautiful.

and i can tell which parts you didnt do... the oil pressure sender has two wires on it, one of which, a green one, was not hooked up anywhere. its probably a ground, who knows.

i finished some more of the harness with 10ft of wire loom i got today. re-taped everything from head to toe and it looks SICK.

-John

Here are some pics of just the un-wrapping stage of the lower harness. Im removing all of the charging / battery wires and replacing them with 4GA. with new connectors from alt, starter, fuse box. may even consider pulling the chasis harness off and removing the wiring for the fans, fogs, a/c system, washer fluid power, ect that are not hooked up.

this is fun because it really does not cost me anything and i get to take the car apart more :P



more pics of the wrapping stage comming soon. i took them already but cam died when i tried to upload.

-John
Modified by sickness14 at 11:04 AM 8/15/2009

[eh?]

Save your sanity, buy a stock long block and slowly rebuild the other engine. Trust me it will save you from giving up down the road..

[mott6904]

Save your sanity, buy a stock long block and slowly rebuild the other engine. Trust me it will save you from giving up down the road..

+1

You should always have your car tuned by someone that knows what they are doing. This last breakdown could probably would have been avoided, but i bet im in the same boat as you. I finished my car because i wrecked my daily driver and threw a bad tune to get me buy. I have a good daily now so i will be tearing mine back down to see what the damage is. It is all a lesson learned.

[sickness14]

Yup. your right.

And now ive got a daily! so the motor is apart. Does anyone know where i can get Valve seals from for my rb25? what other motors use the same seals? VG30DE? KA? Im rebuilding the head again because it needs to be machined. Im replacing the valve guides if needed, and the valve seals. Im debating whether or not to upgrade to tomei springs / retainers.

Also, can i re-use my cosworth head gasket this time? it has been installed once. I just bought it! ugh.

Fuel System-6 Aeroquip Socketless Hose, Blue -8 Aeroquip Socketless Hose, Blue -08 Aeroquip Socketless 180 Degree Elbow Fitting -08 Aeroquip Socketless 90 Degree Elbow Fitting Aeroquip Union Tee -08 Mocal Push Lock Straight Hose End -8AN Red/Blue Universal 400-939 Inline Fuel Pump Install Kit 128-3039 AN-6 Walbro Fuel Pump Fitting128-3040 AN-8 Walbro Fuel Pump Fitting Bosch 044 Fuel Pump (Inline) Bosch 30 Amp Fuel Pump Relay x2Tomei Fuel RailRC Engineering 750cc 7MGTE Injectors

ValvetrainTomei RB25DET Headgasket - 87.0mm bore - 1.2mmTomei Adjustable pulley sliding type - IntakeTomei Adjustable pulley sliding type - Exhaust Tomei RB25DET Valve Spring Lift ~ 10.25 (Retainer included - solid typeOEM Valve guide Intake/Exhaust setOEM Valve seals

Bottom EndCP SC7310 Forged Aluminum Piston Kit Nissan RB26DETT 86.5mm/8.5:1 (MEASURE BLOCK CLEARANCE)ACL Race Main Bearing Set 7M2428H/X Nissan RB26DETT (SET OIL CLEARANCE & BEARING SIZE)ACL Race Rod Bearing Set 6B2960H/X RB26DETT RB25 DET (SET OIL CLEARANCE & BEARING SIZE)

DrivetrainNM042SD: Exedy Twin Plate Clutch Kit w/ Flywheel, 2205 clamping load. Wheel Torque Rating 430 lbs./ft, 500-750whp

Machine WorkHead dissassemled, cleaned, valve job, machine valve seats, install valve guides, install valve seals, install valve springs, install retainerscrank machined/ crank balanced, crank polished, rods polished, block honed and clearances measured to order pistons

LaborRe-assemble MotorRe-install motorInstall Differential & Bushing Kit
Modified by sickness14 at 6:50 AM 6/3/2009

[Carl H]

nice list but a few reccomendations...

1) forget dual pumps, install the bosch 044 intank using a modified stock pump bracket, mount the pump near the 'fork' that mounts the tank and run a pickup to the bottom.

2) forget the baller tomei injectors, they are the same as the greddy 720s i have and are nothing more than denso injectors that have been marked up...I would go with a set of supra 7mgte injectors from rc...i had a set and they were FANTASTIC. not to mention they are also about 3-400$ cheaper than tomei's rebadged topfeeds.

3) again forget the baller tomei valve guides, i looked into this when doing my rebuild and decided against it, very expensive bling that is lost out on a street car that doesnt see constant high rpm use.

also for the fuel system stuff, its very nice stuff you have listed but its also VERY expensive stuff...id guess thats almost 500$ in fittings alone you have there.you may want to go to a local hydraulic shop and see about having lines custom made, this is what i plan on doing when i convert my setup to dual feed from a single source.

[240z4u]

I have a full set of RB valve seals, NIB. Email me with an offer.

Sounds to me like the PO cracked the ringlands in cyl 6.

[sickness14]

nice list but a few reccomendations...

1) forget dual pumps, install the bosch 044 intank using a modified stock pump bracket, mount the pump near the 'fork' that mounts the tank and run a pickup to the bottom.

2) forget the baller tomei injectors, they are the same as the greddy 720s i have and are nothing more than denso injectors that have been marked up...I would go with a set of supra 7mgte injectors from rc...i had a set and they were FANTASTIC. not to mention they are also about 3-400$ cheaper than tomei's rebadged topfeeds.

3) again forget the baller tomei valve guides, i looked into this when doing my rebuild and decided against it, very expensive bling that is lost out on a street car that doesnt see constant high rpm use.

also for the fuel system stuff, its very nice stuff you have listed but its also VERY expensive stuff...id guess thats almost 500$ in fittings alone you have there.you may want to go to a local hydraulic shop and see about having lines custom made, this is what i plan on doing when i convert my setup to dual feed from a single source.

So carl,

1)would you recommend touching the walbro pump at all to replace it, or would that be sufficient for 400-500 whp? Would the stock fuel lines be sufficient to flow enough fuel for 400-500 whp? Im not sure if its even worth upgrading fuel lines, $250 worth especially.

2) Thank you for the 7m supra RC injector recommendation. I will definitely look into that. Do you have a specific place that you know of where i can get them? is a 720cc injector going to work out alright for me, i dont know much about shopping for the correct size injector. with my .63 trim turbo, it maxes out at 565hp. I think that injector would work fine

3) where can i get oem valve guides? im having a difficult time finding them. should i upgrade the 11 yr old valve springs and retainers, do you think its worth upgrading? i dont want a spring to snap.

Thank you very much!!

Modified by sickness14 at 6:58 AM 6/3/2009
Modified by sickness14 at 7:01 AM 6/3/2009