Failed Smog Again - Different Issue

[slybydesignq45t]

I want to first thank Goody94Q45 for all his help, in emailing me details on how to fix the CEL light, which is why I failed smog the first time.

Seeing as yesterday I had the day off I followed the detail instructions Goody gave me and it worked. My CEL came on and I assumed I was good to go. So I take the car in for smog and it failed because of what looked to be ignition timing. Seeing as DMV won't issue me another extension I went home opened the mechanics manual and got busy. I was able to reduce the idle to where I suppose its supposed to be. The idle would surge 3 times before coming down, but was over 1500 rpms on idle, and dropped to about 900 when warmed.

I think the smog check read.

15 mph - 138225 mph - 1485

Now after adjusting the idle from what I can tell its:

0 mph - 600 to 700 15 mph - below 7 to 80025 mph - at about 800 to 90045 mph - at 110065 mph - 2,000

I'm just guessing here. The mechanics manual didn't describe how to do this with out the consult, but I took a snap at it. My question is,

1) Did I fix the idle problem or did I put a bandage on it?2) Seeing as the FP needs changing, could this have thrown idle off so far? 3) When I change the FP this week or next week, will my idle wack out if the FP is throwing the idle off4) Since I did the idle adjustment everything seems fine, car runs smooth and on start no idle surge, but on cold it starts at 1,000 then goes down to about 650-700 I'm guessing. I don't know how to read where its at, but the needle stays at the third line up.


Modified by slybydesignq45t at 1:35 PM 11/18/2008

[maxnix]

1) Did I fix the idle problem or did I put a bandage on it?2) Seeing as the FP needs changing, could this have thrown idle off so far? 3) When I change the FP this week or next week, will my idle wack out if the FP is throwing the idle off4) Since I did the idle adjustment everything seems fine, car runs smooth and on start no idle surge, but on cold it starts at 1,000 then goes down to about 650-700 I'm guessing. I don't know how to read where its at, but the needle stays at the third line up.

1.) What did you do?

2.) Yes, it's possible, but likely engine would not pull in higher rpm range.

3.) Who knows what you did?

4.) Cold start whould be about 1200 rpm until the coolant starts warming.

Is it time for the Jerry Tucker discussion again?

Maybe Q45tech's second best quote:

"More Q45 are damaged fatally by ignorant owners and incompetent help than wear out."

[slybydesignq45t]

I turned the idle down with a screw driver. The mechanics manual said to if the RPMS are to high it can be adjusted with the screw driver. It looks to be OK, I was just wondering are the RPMs supposed to be at 2000 when doing 65 mph? It said to disconnect the idle connection from the harness and put the car in N, then adjust the idle accordingly. I did so with no problems of car stalling out or shuttering. Actually, she is much quieter now and idles fine. I am wondering if this accord during the time my car stalled and I thought it was the throttle body. I got that cleaned and she was fine, except my idle was higher then usual. I also think the place I am taking my car for smog is not the best place, so I am going to take it some where else this time, since I have addressed both issues for it failing previously. I will give Jerry a call. I just called Jerry and found he no longer owns the place, but instead his long time employee Brian purchased it. I am looking forward to Brian calling me back. Maybe I can get in tomorrow seeing as I have the rest of this week off from work and this is the only time I can do something like this.

[maxnix]

I turned the idle down with a screw driver.

What idle where?

If you mean the IAC valve, you are just treating a symptom, although that might be attractive if it will pass emissions, it is not a long term fix of the underlying problem.

[slybydesignq45t]

Thanks Max, actually I found adjusting the idle was a fix to a problem that is separate from failing my emissions this time. Yesterday I took my car to a different shop to have the oil changed, me and the mechanic spoke about the car, and I showed him why I failed smog. He said that it was odd that I'd fail emissions 3 months later. I further told him we had just cleaned the throttle body about 1.5 months ago when my breaks where done. So we did a pressure test on the EGR Valve and it failed. So at least we boiled it down to the EGR valve. He said when the throttle body was cleaned it must of pass carbon down the EGR valve. I am going to have this fixed on Monday. I hope this allows for me passing smog.

[maxnix]

Not buying his theories, and I still don't understand how you adjusted the idle.

But a malfunctioning EGR valve will increase NOx readings. Be sure to have the gaskets and clean the downtube between the exhaust and the valve. The EGR gas intake on the plenum is easily clogged but very difficult if at all possible with the plenum on the engine.

[slybydesignq45t]

When I say I adjusted the idle, I mean I took a screw driver and turned the idle down. It was the piece that sits closest to the windshield in the hood, and in order for me to reach it, I had to take out the dipstick. I turned it clock wise till the RPM's where low enough that they would not spike on start. Prior to doing this, on cold starts the engine would rev past 2000 rpm's 3 times before stopping at a little over 1500 rpm's. Now it does not pass 2000 rpms on start up and slowly comes down to the 1200 mark then on warm up goes down to about 650 to 700. I did this my reading the mechanics manual because I thought the idle was hi after the smog tester mentioned it being so hi. I assume this was caused when my car surged and then shut off. Now the idle is where it needs to be, I guess. Sorry I can't remember the name of the component I turned with the screw driver, but following the manual seemed to work on the idle adjustment. One thing I do question is my other cars would run at 1500 rpms at 65 mph. This runs at the 2000 rpm mark at 65. I wonder if this is because she is an 8 cylinder.

Thats what he told me. He said a good cleaning may take all day. He said after the cleaning is done if thats not the case then it may be the cats going bad. I really hope this does it, because with less then ten days to get her smogged I am running out of money on this and time.

[maxnix]

Catalytic converters usually don't go bad unless subjected to abnormal operating conditions. So I hope your guy realizes what needs to be done to accomplish a clean EGR path.
Modified by maxnix at 3:59 PM 11/21/2008

[Q45tech]

"question is my other cars would run at 1500 rpms at 65 mph. This runs at the 2000 rpm mark at 65. I wonder if this is because she is an 8 cylinder. "

A very scarey comment/question for someone with 214 posts. Obviously we have not been doing our job in providing a college education in automotive engineering and technology or members have not been doing the fair share of readings.

Generally a V8 provides more and a smoother torque since their are 4 cylinder firings vs 3 for a 6 or 2 for an I4 PER REVOLUTION. So in theory a V8 can function at a lower rpm than an engine with fewer cylinders.However 32 valve V8 need more rpms than a 16 valve V8 to create enogh torque at low rpm due to differences in the air speed thru runners from plenum to intake valves. Bigger diameter runners and more intake valves slow down air speed and result in lower efficiency at low rpms.........a trade off to gain high efficiency at high rpms.

A single 2" diameter valve has 12.5% LESS area than 2 - 1.5" valves and thus makes more peak torque but less cruise torque so more [higher] rpm is required.

Depending on what rpm you look at, a 32 valvle engine acts as though it were 12% bigger or 12% smaller in displacement than a 16 valve engine.

People get confused in viewing the volumetric efficiency curve [torque curve] at wide open throttle on a dyno vs never seeing a curve with the TB also closed at cruise rpm.

A steady speed has ZERO NO extra torque or the speed would slowly increase.

[slybydesignq45t]

Thanks for the input guys. I am going to do more research into this.