F'ed up timing

[bendychicken]

OK, this all started out as a head gasket replacement.During reassembly I cracked my intake cam unce I managed to get my hands on some s14 cams dirt cheap.(this is a 91 engine and 91 cams are pricey)so I put the s14 cam with green paint on it in and line up the mating marks on the timing chains and sprockets. then i tried to turn the engine over by hand to check it and the piston and valves hit. it wont turn over. So i'm like screw what the FSM says, i'll just set the lobes were there supposed to be at TDC Compression stroke. I put the whole thing back together and now I can't get the Ignition timming right. If I rotate the distributor all the way to the right it fires at 13 deg. BTDC.If I pull the dist. out and hop it over one tooth in either direction it's even more F'ed up. The only thing I can come up with to explain this is that even though the cam to crank timing is correct, the crank to distributor timing is off. Is there any way to index the distributor to the crankshaft independant of the cams? If I just new where the dist. should sit when the crank when the crank is at 15 deg. BTDC I think I could do it be trail and error. Any suggestions?

[4gotn1]

ever considered the distrubitor is off 180 degrees. that might be the case. i had a similar problem on my sohc when i did my timing chain. try reversing it 180 degrees and see if that dosent help. and the fsm will be your friend... dont say screw it to that. it will only cause you a headache

[Dattebayo]

Im wondering a couple of things.

1) You had the head off the block, so why didnt you twist the crank and set piston #1 to TDC on the compression stroke?

2) At that point, the Timing chain had to be disconnected so I dont see why you would even have these issues

3) Then you should have set the head to TDC before connecting the timing chain so again you wouldnt have this issue.

4) Then you connect the timing chains and gears.

You should have followed the manual's procedures more closely.

[bendychicken]

If I rotate the distributor 180 deg it wont run at all. It runs now, just poorly. It lacks power when I test drove it. Also it's kicking out some white smoke. At first I thought it was coolant but it actually smells like burning oil. And thats kinda odd because the pistons and rings were cleaned to a shine, the rings checked out to be within specs(.4 mm gap) and I honned the cylinders. I also replaced the valve stem seals. So how the heck I'm burning oil is beyond me. Maybe head gasket leak? But I can't figure that either, because I had the head milled down 6 thousenths. I sanded the deck with 1000 grit paper. I wiped every thing down with paper towels and acetone and bolted the head down with new bolts and according to the FSM's directions and torque specs.WTF?????

[Dattebayo]

Okay, did you read my post at all?

The problem is your piston #1 is not set at TDC. Thats the piston in the front. You have to pull you motor apart again because you did not set the piston when you replaced the gasket.

[bendychicken]

2BN_S13, I did all of those things. If you read the original post, I did set it to TDC(BTW, there is no such thing as "compression" stroke until you you set the valve timming, Ex stroke and comp stroke are only differentiated by the position of the valves. And, since that position is set up by aligning the mating marks on the chains and sprockets that is irrelivent at this point in the proccess.) But, The valves hit the pistons when I turned it over by hand to test the timming(and to make sure I didn't end up bending my valves). And at that point I all ready had the lower front cover on, and the oil pan, and the crosmember, steering rack, etc etc. Plus, I believe that this is actually an exhaust cam that I'm using on the intake side. This would cause my timming to be off even though all of the mating marks were lined up correctly. The timming is not THAT far off because the engine does start up and run just fine. I just can't get the ignition timing just right. If the distributor is rotated all the way to the right(wich should make the timing light read about 20 deg BTDC or so) it reads 13 deg BTDC. My theory at the moment on the timing is that the cams timming with respect to each other is correct(How many teeth apart they are on the upper chain). And the upper timming chain is in correct time with the crank. But, the Idler sprocket in between the two is off. If the idler sprocket was off one tooth, but the upper chain was off one tooth in the opposite direction(or something to that effect) the valve timming would still be correct(or DAMN close), but that would still throw the distributor timming off by just a few degrees(In this case about 7 degrees retarded)..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................I think If I drive a wedge in the lower chain(to compress the chain tensioner) and remove the idler sprocket and jump it one tooth forward and reset the cams(by how many degrees the lobes should be at when at tdc compression

[bendychicken]

And If you READ MY ORGINAL POST you would know that I did just that, the very first time, and it was wrong because the valves hit the piston

[Dattebayo]

WHoa, chill out im not yelling at you.

Thats impossible. Maybe you accidently read the alignment procedure wrong or something. If it was aligned correctly the first time and the cams are in there proper place as well, the motor would move perfectly, right?

Then If you installed the distributor correctly, then it would run correctly, right?

Well without knowing anything more i can tell you that it is either the cams or the piston timing that is off because manuals do not lie! If the suggestion in the manual is not working for you then it is something that you did not check out that is preventing you from solving the problem.

Edit: look, you are supposed to set the cams timing by looking at the lobes' position compared to each other, not the gears attached to the timing chain...

[bendychicken]

Well, I found an easy way to fix the problem I just removed the bolts that secure the distributor to the timing cover, and then I just rotated the distributor all the way to the right and zip tied it to that little "ear" were the timing cover bolts to the head and that makes fire at about 18 deg BTDC. Ghetto style all the way!!

[bendychicken]

see
Modified by bendychicken at 6:38 PM 3/23/2005

[bendychicken]

soooo on a different note, It's smoking. I honned the cylinders, cleanned the pistons and the rings(all were in spec) installed new valve stem seats and put the whole thing back together. my geuss is that it's the new valve stem seals. I say this because I drove them all the way down on the valve guide till they bottomed out onto the head. But later on I look in the manual and they are suppossed to have a gap of 2mm between the bottom of the seal and the head. I'm wondering if them being driven down completely is causing them to leak and that's were my oil leak is comming from. I did a compression check and #1 is at 165psi #2 is at 170psi #3 is at 175psi and so is #4. And, I pored oil in the #1 cylinder and vacumed it all out and then retested with the same compression. So, am I correct in thinking this isn't a piston ring issue? And that the valve stem seals were damaged because they were driven down to far? Any one have any experiance with this?

BTW, is wasn't trying to yell. I just didn't want to be misunderstood, that's all.

[Dattebayo]

All i can say is good luck with your jury rig.

[bendychicken]

hey, I'm not trying to blue print the damn thing, I just want my girl to have a way to get to and from work. The way I look at it is. I paid 700 for the thing and I've got almost that much in it now in parts........maybe more. I'm not a machinist. I don't have 30 different micrometers and split ball gauges and all that. I just want this thing to run.......without killing all my neighbor's plants.

[s13EastTN]

I think I know what he means by his dist timing. Basically the middle gear that the cam connects to is turned slightly one way to make it impossible for him to sit it at perfect the perfect timing. I have the exact same problem. I lined up the gear perfect w/ the chain and such at tdc but the gear must be off by a tad because I cannot set it perfectly no matter how much I turn it to the left its always about 13' BTDC and if I take it out and move it one tooth over it is about ~25 BTDC. I doubt his cam timing is off, else it wouldn't really run at all. So, I think thats his problem, the middle gear is slightly off just like mine.

[bendychicken]

Well my handy zip tie fixed the timing problem. Any ideas on were I'm burning oil? Would driving the valve stem seals down to far(bottomed out onto the head) cause them to leak? The FSM says they are supposed to have a 2mm gap in between the head and the bottom of the stem seal(The bottom of the metal cup). Is it possible that the top of the valve guide is hitting the bottom of the rubber part of the seal, lifting it up and forcing it open?

[s13EastTN]

Try some lucas oil stuff. Worked for me.

[bendychicken]

Well, to close this post, the smoking was infact because I had driven the valve stem seals down all the way to the spring seat. After installing new stem seals with a 2mm gamp between there bottom and the spring seat the car did not smoke. Aparently, if you drive the seals to low the valve guide pushes them open at the top. And they leak. Which sucks.

As for the timming issue. It was an EX cam I was using for my intake side. And, that is why the valves hit the pistons when I turned it over by hand to test the valve timming. So if you have your timming marks all matching up and it's not turning over, make sure you have the right cam in the right place. I ended up just setting the timming using the pictures from the stickey in the ka forum. Car runs great now.

I hope this helps someone in the future that is going threw the same thing.