Has anyone added an External Oil Cooler?

Reason I am asking is because I just dyno'd my M56 today. Bone Stock, after carbon cleaning, 359whp. TQ reading was not working correctly because we couldn't get a good Tach Signal. I was only getting a baseline number so I didn't want to spend all day troubleshooting why the tach signal wasn't working for the dyno.

Anyway - Long Story short - at the end of 6 runs my oil temp was up to ~240deg F. That is too high for my liking and it was only 78 degrees outside today. Interestingly enough, it still made 354whp that run so it didn't seem to hurt HP as much as everyone claims.

Other interesting things to note, intake air temps were really high, 108deg at the start of the run, but dropped to 93 by the end of the run. Also, the cold air "scoop" or whatever you want to call it definitely made a difference for the better and is not a restriction. Observing both the MAP and MAF sensors, either on or off, there was no difference in the MAF reading, MAP reading, not Horsepower. Actually with it of I lost HP, down like 5-8hp depending on the run.

The shop's internet is down so I don't have a dyno chart, but I got what I needed and I have the Logs in HP Tuners for the data.

Back to the original question - I want to add an external oil cooler, has anyone done it yet?

thanks,

Just as I thought - I did some pulls tonight on the on ramp of the freeway, and sure enough, with cooler intake temps around the low to mid 70's I was making 3-4deg more timing advance. I'd recon that would be close to 20ish more hp difference to the wheels.

Oil Temps only got up to 225deg, but that is still too high for me.

Said it before and said it again, when this car starts to get warm, it becomes a pig. Thing runs like a raped ape in the winter but come late spring/summer...I feel like it loses a good 25% of its performance.

I also put the 'intake snorkle' back on like a year ago after going without it for 2-3 years.

I haven't installed an external cooler, but I'm curious where you are getting the oil temp reading from.


Also, is there a temperature you are targeting? I think for the most part, your oil temp along with coolant temp was high @ 240 due to the nature of dyno tests - repeated aggressive runs in areas with poor airflow. This is assuming your HP results went progressively lower with each run.

The 225* F you got on the road is a little more in line with proper cooling (as designed) and that incorporates vehicle speed + airflow, the radiator fans & thermostat working in unison. Still a little high, but you mentioned doing pulls. Lol
I mention the coolant circuit because the M56 already has an oil cooler tied to the coolant system. I like it because I find water/air heat exchangers to be more efficient than oil/air. Maybe the system could be set up to offer more cooling, but I figured "cold" fluids aren't always ideal for stock engine reliability & longevity.
I'd say, it depends on what the engine has been designed to do and what/how it spends most of its time when running.

Are you setting up for racing? That's why I was curious what your target fluid temps are. By chance did you monitor oil pressure as well?

***
Thank you for sharing the results of your tests with the community.

Oil temps are coming from the ECU. I'm using HP Tuners to data log. I did not monitor pressure, but I should have. I'll add that to my pid list next time I go for a run.

Yes, the dyno is not ideal for airflow, but even on the highway the temps got too high for my liking.

I would like to run some HPDE type of racing with the car someday. My last M45 suffered from overheating on the track during multiple hard laps, so I want to make sure I address the cooling issues with this car before I take it out.

Compound that with the fact that I live in AZ, we have some pretty hot summers, so the more cooling the better.

Oh, and the oil to water cooler that we have stock is so dinky it would only really help in stop and go traffic.

I agree, water/air heat exchangers tent to be more efficient when the temperature delta is to ambient. When your delta is only 30-40degrees it tends to fall short.

I see. I figured this was purpose-driven.

It seems like to make the most of this, you'd need very good airflow over whatever your final liquid/air HX is going to be. So, force the fans on sooner & longer - the thermostat will be happy to compensate for its coolant duties.
Or the other way is more passive. Get a slightly colder thermostat and that will keep the coolant flowing through the rad & thus provide a little better cooling to the oil cooler. But that only flies if you trust the cooler in the first place.

Again, I haven't done it, so I'm just kicking around ideas to help serve the purpose. I hope if anyone has done it they will raise their hands & share the details. Otherwise, you'd be pioneering for the group.

I've added oil coolers to lots of cars. The stock cooler on the oil filter of this car is way undersized for what i am looking for.

I was just wondering if anyone has had experience mounting them on this chassis. I'll post up pics after I'm done.

In my experience lower temp thermostats don't really help and turning the fans on at a lower temp tends to wear them out sooner. Plus it is good to get oil up to temps to evaporate any condensation out of the crankcase.

I'll probably mount an external air/oil heat exchanger with its own fan and a thermostatic valve and switch for the fan. That way the oil can get up to temp as factory intended but keeps the oil at a more consistent albeit lower overall temp.

Thanks Ed for the ideas. You seem to be the guru around here and have the most M experience. Much appreciated.

ken in az wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:41 pm

...
I'll probably mount an external air/oil heat exchanger with its own fan and a thermostatic valve and switch for the fan. That way the oil can get up to temp as factory intended but keeps the oil at a more consistent albeit lower overall temp.
...

Amen to that point.


The only thing I know for a fact is that I don't know it all, but I like to share as much info as I can get to help others keep their cars alive. My expertise is more in the line of "My car isn't acting normal, how do I get it back to normal?"
Once the application is 25% outside the window of normal operation, for example racing, there are way more variables involved for me to speak with authority.
I can tell you know what you're talking about. I'm here to learn.


I know not too many here track their cars, but I'm sure with time more would get involved, so it's much appreciated to have you sharing your expertise on that.

No specific experience on the M, but t I track my Camaro and I used a Derale 25 row cooler and made my own lines with Koul tools fitting holders, Summit fittings and hose, and an LS specific thermostat from Improved Racing who also has lots of universal parts that might work for you like a thermostat which is better than oil to coolant heat exchanger.

Also I wouldn't worry about 240 as long as you run a good synthetic, when it gets up to 270+ it's time to do a cooler.

Yup - did the same on my Silverado 427 stroker Iron Block LS. I haven't logged the temps yet, but I haven't had any issues yet.

It's a Prerunner that sees a lot of sand. Oil temps can get out of hand in a hurry on that. You should see the double trans coolers with fans I have setup in the bed cage, lol.

My F250 sees about 230+ deg when towing 10k lbs up the mountains by Payson / Mormon Lake area.

I'd like to see the temps in this M56 hit 190-200 and not move.

Oh and I always use a quality synthetic. Right now I have the pennzoil natural gas oil in it right now, seems to be the best on the shelf at the moment.

Mine never had a power problem once it actually reacted to the throttle. That being said like clock work when the oil temp would hit 210°F it would limp the throttle and have ZERO power under 20-30 MPH. Then it would wake up and run like a bat out of hell. You could not even free rev it in neutral. You could hit the throttle to the floor and it would lay over and then respond 2-3 seconds later. Water temp could be any value, air temp could be just about any value, but as soon as it hit 210 on the oil it would fall on its face. My briggs and stratton lawn mower would have beat it across an intersection while towing the car. It was literally that bad no exaggeration. Put a massive oil cooler with the biggest Setrab core I could find and never had that issue again. I had the Nismo 300ZX 144°F thermostat and the fans set for 170°F turn on. Water never ran over 178°F.

Once you have HPS intake hoses, a dual 2.5" exhaust and tuning the air intake ducting IS a noticeable restriction. Nearly 20 hp @ 7,000 rpm on my car. I ended up installing it back and swiss cheesing my air boxes. I had 428 HP and 434 TQ when my car was last pulled on the dyno. Ran a 12.2 @ 112 in 90°F weather. I pulled on a 392 Scat pack SRT Challenger on the highway with it. Stock exhaust is the biggest restriction to power on these cars. Everything from the front of the rear cats back has to go to make any real power. Needs 2.5" and a X-pipe with free flowing mufflers like magnaflows.

Dang, that is moving! I ordered a 30row cooler, lines, and a thermostatic oil filter adapter to install. You don't happen to have any pics of how you installed and ran your lines for the cooler?

Also, how'd your trans hold up? Did the Uprev tune help with shifting?

Too bad HPS doesn't make their hoses anymore. I have something coming in the mail this weekend to try and make something work equivalent to their hoses. Can you say "eBay special? Haha.

I thought about getting the 150deg tstat but was concerned if that would be too cool messing up the cold start closed loop fuel tables. I'll probably get the 170° F thermostat for now and adjust the fans to kick on earlier once I see the coolant temps start being the problem.

I'd like to thank you for your post, now I'm gonna be like a stalker and go read all your posts haha

DFW2011M56S wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:58 pm

Mine never had a power problem once it actually reacted to the throttle. That being said like clock work when the oil temp would hit 210°F it would limp the throttle and have ZERO power under 20-30 MPH. Then it would wake up and run like a bat out of hell. You could not even free rev it in neutral. You could hit the throttle to the floor and it would lay over and then respond 2-3 seconds later. Water temp could be any value, air temp could be just about any value, but as soon as it hit 210 on the oil it would fall on its face. My briggs and stratton lawn mower would have beat it across an intersection while towing the car. It was literally that bad no exaggeration. Put a massive oil cooler with the biggest Setrab core I could find and never had that issue again. I had the Nismo 300ZX 144°F thermostat and the fans set for 170°F turn on. Water never ran over 178°F.

Once you have HPS intake hoses, a dual 2.5" exhaust and tuning the air intake ducting IS a noticeable restriction. Nearly 20 hp @ 7,000 rpm on my car. I ended up installing it back and swiss cheesing my air boxes. I had 428 HP and 434 TQ when my car was last pulled on the dyno. Ran a 12.2 @ 112 in 90°F weather.

Hmmm...to do or not to do this stuff...this information is intriguing but I don't track/drag/dyno my car.

This was discussed last aug and mikedamageinc doesn't understand that nissan cars will likely go into limp mode somewhere above 220. Doesn't matter if he believes the oil can handle higher if our cars will put you in limp mode.

You should go read up on the 370z forums. They even go into limp mode with the stock nissan oil cooler. Can't imagine nissan will drastically change the limp mode activation temp between our cars, especially if the M37 uses the same engine. I know you have an M56. You were lucky to not go into limp mode since you've only experienced a minor drop in performance at 225.

Sounds like someone is still a little peeved about something lol.

I don't get it though, I sincerely hit 243°F in my logs and didn't go into Limp Mode. Do we know what PID he was looking at? On the highway I hit 223°F on a 2nd to 110mph pull and didn't go into Limp Mode.

I highly doubt that 220°F is what did it - my F250 sees over 230°F pretty regularly pulling up hills while towing.

Synthetic oil is stable at that temp so I don't see a reason for Nissan/Infiniti to put you into Limp Mode that early.

Yoda, do you have any data to back up your claims?

I'll post my logs here in a minute to show you mine but you need HPT VCM Scanner to view them.

Yoda's Master wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:53 pm

This was discussed last aug and mikedamageinc doesn't understand that nissan cars will likely go into limp mode somewhere above 220. Doesn't matter if he believes the oil can handle higher if our cars will put you in limp mode.

looks like you quoted, while i was editing and adding onto my post. like I said, go read up on the 370z forums, not on nicoclub. You'll see lots of limp mode posts with high temps

Will do, but in the meantime - here is a pic of the Log. Starting temp was 237F and Ending was 241F Made the same HP that pull within 6hp of the highest pull which was the first pull.

Yoda's Master wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:05 pm

looks like you quoted, while i was editing and adding onto my post. like I said, go read up on the 370z forums, not on nicoclub. You'll see lots of limp mode posts with high temps

Did a little searching, and this is coming from someone on the Z forums with almost 7000posts....

"Stage one limp mode isn't until 280F, stage two limp mode is 300F but probably pretty difficult to reach when already restricted."

Which makes a little bit more sense than 220F degrees

ken in az wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:39 pm

Did a little searching, and this is coming from someone on the Z forums with almost 7000posts....

"Stage one limp mode isn't until 280F, stage two limp mode is 300F but probably pretty difficult to reach when already restricted."

Which makes a little bit more sense than 220F degrees

maybe nissan raised the limts on newer model years. There's a lot more posts than just that one you found from owners with earlier model years. Either way it's your choice. My experiences are positive post oil cooler installation since I have the 09 model.

Just read a thread here about oil temps on a track and his experiences with Limp Mode. Interestingly enough, I know the guy - his wife did some photography work for me way back in the day - haha

http://www.the370z.com/track-autocross- ... y-bad.html

Cliff Notes - There are definitely 2 stages of Limp Mode, he has/had a 2009 model brand new less than 200mi on the odometer.

"So, the big issue i had is this... About 10 mins into my first run, I noticed that the oil temperature gauge was pretty much burried at 300f... As soon as that happened, my rev limiter moved from 7500 to 6000... Every time I'd accelerate through a gear it would prematurely cut the throttle at 6000rpm... Was extremely frustrating as it seemed to cut in at all the wrong times and slowed me down overall by at least 10%

It happened in all four of my runs, usually about 10 mins in.

I can only imagine this is going to get worse as I move to stickier tires and tweak the motor.

It gets worse... After the fourth and final run, it dropped the rev limiter from 6000 to 3500, just as I was pulling off the track. I decided to keep the car running after the session to let the engine cool. Tried to drive it home, and every time I accelerated through a gear it just cut the engine at 3500, sending it back down to 2500... I had to shift gears real fast... luckily 6th gear is good for 80mph at 3000rpm, so I made it home. Also, it turned out that after I shut off the car and restarted, the computer had reset and all was back to normal."

Not saying you are wrong Yoda, but I can't find anything that says 220deg F causes Limp Mode. Seems to be much higher in the temps that cause it.

Either way - I'm adding an Oil Cooler. AZ summers are Brutal with 115deg temps daily, much higher on the actual freeways.

Alright, might have read 240, it's been a long time since i've look at those posts so I don't really remember the number being tossed around at the time. The main point is that you go into limp mode with high oil temps..

Oil Cooler kit that is being delivered today....with any luck, I'll have it installed this weekend and post the write-up.

G-Plus 30 Row Thermostat Oil Cooler - I have seen this kit used with pretty decent success. Albeit much cheaper than Z1, Stillen, Concept Z, Etc... It seems to still do the same job.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gplus-30-ROW-T ... l2649#rwid

PS - I'll probably install a Transmission Cooler as well. I have one sitting in my garage that will work perfectly. I'll do a write up on that too.

You should also get those hoses wrapped or at least get the hose clamps so it doesn't rub on whatever frame surface it might be touching since it's kind of like a file

ken in az wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:21 pm

Dang, that is moving! I ordered a 30row cooler, lines, and a thermostatic oil filter adapter to install. You don't happen to have any pics of how you installed and ran your lines for the cooler?

Also, how'd your trans hold up? Did the Uprev tune help with shifting?

Too bad HPS doesn't make their hoses anymore. I have something coming in the mail this weekend to try and make something work equivalent to their hoses. Can you say "eBay special? Haha.

I thought about getting the 150deg tstat but was concerned if that would be too cool messing up the cold start closed loop fuel tables. I'll probably get the 170° F thermostat for now and adjust the fans to kick on earlier once I see the coolant temps start being the problem.

I'd like to thank you for your post, now I'm gonna be like a stalker and go read all your posts haha

DFW2011M56S wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:58 pm

Mine never had a power problem once it actually reacted to the throttle. That being said like clock work when the oil temp would hit 210°F it would limp the throttle and have ZERO power under 20-30 MPH. Then it would wake up and run like a bat out of hell. You could not even free rev it in neutral. You could hit the throttle to the floor and it would lay over and then respond 2-3 seconds later. Water temp could be any value, air temp could be just about any value, but as soon as it hit 210 on the oil it would fall on its face. My briggs and stratton lawn mower would have beat it across an intersection while towing the car. It was literally that bad no exaggeration. Put a massive oil cooler with the biggest Setrab core I could find and never had that issue again. I had the Nismo 300ZX 144°F thermostat and the fans set for 170°F turn on. Water never ran over 178°F.

Once you have HPS intake hoses, a dual 2.5" exhaust and tuning the air intake ducting IS a noticeable restriction. Nearly 20 hp @ 7,000 rpm on my car. I ended up installing it back and swiss cheesing my air boxes. I had 428 HP and 434 TQ when my car was last pulled on the dyno. Ran a 12.2 @ 112 in 90°F weather.

Uprev did not help with the shifting. If anything adding torque makes the 7spd stack shift and lockup the converter even sooner.

Wish I could answer on the trans durability. It was slipping a little on the WOT 3-4 shift at 120K. I totaled the car running over an aluminum ladder that a truck in the middle lane kicked in front of me. I was running 85 mph at the time and no where to go. It did enough damage to the underside of the car that it was an insurance write off. I demoded it before it was taken away. Ladder got the upper and lower oil pan, the crossmember, destroyed the trans and damaged the rear end and driveshaft.

A couple months before I ran over the ladder I had to replace the valve body. The TCM had failed and the car had literally quit moving while driving.

Got tired of sitting around at home so me and my wife took a drive today about 40 miles south and back for the hell of it. During the drive, I did some unofficial datalogging using Torque and my OBD-II reader. It was ~44F outside.

When cruising:

Oil Temp: 192.2F
Coolant Temp: 185.0F
Intake Temp: 53.6F
Fuel Temp: 62.6F
Cat B1S1: 975.2F
Cat B2S1: 975.2F
Timing Advance: 35.0*

Immediately after a short 1-2 spirited push at high RPMs on the back roads:

Oil Temp: 206.6F
Coolant Temp: 186.8F
Intake Temp: 51.8F
Fuel Temp: 62.6F
Cat B1S1: 867.2F (?)
Cat B2S1: 867.2F (?)
Timing Advance: 36.0*

Car is a '11 M56x with 125,8xx mi on the clock. I have the full OEM air intake snorkle installed and HPS intake tubes. Running slightly used Purolator air filters.

Now make about 5-6 sprints at WOT from low speed up to 70-80 mph and your oil temps will be in the 220F range and the throttle will become very sluggish under 30 mph.

Hey all - installed the oil cooler on Saturday. Only drove to the grocery store and back to check for leaks.

Just an FYI - the oil pumps on this care are pretty serious. They cause the lines and the cooler to vibrate which gives the car a low hum. I'm going to look at insulating the vibration from the car to limit the noise it creates. It's not loud, just kinda sounds like something from star wars lol. Hard to explain.

I'll be posting a video of the install on my Youtube channel here pretty soon. I'm going to Channel my best EdBwoy! haha.

The installation is straight forward, stock oil filter fits. Didn't take very long for the install. Temps are supposed to rise here in AZ starting the week - into the 100s so I'll have a good chance to see how it does.

I'll keep ya posted.

Right on!
Hey, if you wait a while to post the video, you might be able to add the test results of the before/after temp readings.
Although recording video can be hard sometimes, the real test is taking time to edit them.