Before I get too far into this, I'll start by getting straight to the point. If you have any experience simulating the narrowband signal from a wideband sensor to the factory ECU, I would appreciate a few minutes of your time. If not, then I guess you can speculate and enjoy the conversations. I haven't been able to find a lot of information on this sort of thing here. [It doesn't help that the search isn't working right now for some reason.]
I have a thread over in the SR forums from earlier when I was just looking for clarification into how to wire this thing up.
want-to-simulate-narrow-band-t578149.html
So that, along with some conversations on facebook, has spawned further questions and is leading me to take a closer look at this setup.
So here is where I'm at currently: First things first, my factory narrowband is essentially junk. Somewhere along the line, all the threads have been trashed so I can't install this thing back in the factory location without buying a new one. When I was doing some research on widebands, I found out that most sensors can simulate the narrowband signal for a factory ECU. Why bother with a factory sensor then, right?
Now I have the wideband sensor installed in the O2 housing. I have figured out where to wire the narrowband signal to the ECU. I've also come to the realization that I'm going to need to put the factory sensor somewhere as the ECU sees the voltage or current or both (haven't figured that out yet) coming off the heater from the sensor. In the future, I'd like to upgrade to a Nistune ECU and they've got some different wideband capabilities. So right now I'm thinking I'll leave the wideband in the factory location and stuff the narrowband in the downpipe to be removed later when I have more tuning capabilities. I don't mind if it leaks a little bit and I don't want to have to re-loom my whole harness that I'm 90% done working on to put the factory O2 wires back in it; but if that's what it has to come to, I'll do it.
I also keep hearing horror stories from people with experience that the sensors just don't last very long. Stories on the intrawebnets vary drastically from 200 hours to 50k miles as expected lifespans for these sensors. I can't quite figure this out and I'm going to do more research. What's the point of having a gauge permanently installed in a car when you only use the gauge for tuning occasionally?
Experience with wideband substitute for narrowband (SR20)
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float_6969
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Re: Experience with wideband substitute for narrowband (SR20
I can chime in on this as I've been doing it for a while (not on an SR20, but a CA18).
I run an innnovate unit, the LC-1. I have one installed in my S14 (w/a CA18) and in my DD, a Mazdaspeed Protege.
The LC-1 (as do most widebands) had 2 outputs. One is the "wideband" output, which is a 0-5v. The other is a "narrowband" output, which is 0-1v. One of the nice features of the LC-1 is that the outputs are programmable (ie; 0.1v @ 10:1 and then a linear output up to .9v @ 20:1)
The sensor on the CA18 had about 30K miles on it when I replaced it because it was bad. The ONLY reason it needed replaced was because I dropped it and dented the housing. It still would output a signal, it just wasn't an accurate signal anymore.
The sensor on the MSP only has a few thousand miles on it, so I can't say for sure on that one, but I fully expect it to last thousands of miles more.
As for wiring, it's very easy. Connect the pre-programmed narrowband output (one wire) to the narrowband input (one wire) on the ECU. I didn't even run it to the ECU. I chopped the plug off of the O2 sensor, and used it for the plug on my wideband and used all of the factory wiring and plugs, in the factory positions. (I have a standalone on the CA18 now, so that doesn't apply there anymore, but it does apply to the MSP).
There are a few things to be aware of with a wideband though;
-It MUST be after the turbo. The O2 sensor on the MSP is pre-turbo and you can't put it in the stock location.
-Keep it as close to the motor as possible, but it also can't overheat! I had issues with overheating with the CA18 after a turbo swap. I'm running a big T4 now, and the EGT's were getting too high for the sensor to handle and it kept shutting down. I ended up having to by the bung-extender from Innovate to cure the problem. I had I placed the sensor down stream further, it probably would have cured the issue, plus given it some cooling air from under the car, but that wasn't an option for me.
-The sensor has to be placed on the pipe in a way that condensation cannot run into it. This will instantly damage the sensor. I suspect this is one of the most common reason's for short sensor life.
I hope that helps!
I run an innnovate unit, the LC-1. I have one installed in my S14 (w/a CA18) and in my DD, a Mazdaspeed Protege.
The LC-1 (as do most widebands) had 2 outputs. One is the "wideband" output, which is a 0-5v. The other is a "narrowband" output, which is 0-1v. One of the nice features of the LC-1 is that the outputs are programmable (ie; 0.1v @ 10:1 and then a linear output up to .9v @ 20:1)
The sensor on the CA18 had about 30K miles on it when I replaced it because it was bad. The ONLY reason it needed replaced was because I dropped it and dented the housing. It still would output a signal, it just wasn't an accurate signal anymore.
The sensor on the MSP only has a few thousand miles on it, so I can't say for sure on that one, but I fully expect it to last thousands of miles more.
As for wiring, it's very easy. Connect the pre-programmed narrowband output (one wire) to the narrowband input (one wire) on the ECU. I didn't even run it to the ECU. I chopped the plug off of the O2 sensor, and used it for the plug on my wideband and used all of the factory wiring and plugs, in the factory positions. (I have a standalone on the CA18 now, so that doesn't apply there anymore, but it does apply to the MSP).
There are a few things to be aware of with a wideband though;
-It MUST be after the turbo. The O2 sensor on the MSP is pre-turbo and you can't put it in the stock location.
-Keep it as close to the motor as possible, but it also can't overheat! I had issues with overheating with the CA18 after a turbo swap. I'm running a big T4 now, and the EGT's were getting too high for the sensor to handle and it kept shutting down. I ended up having to by the bung-extender from Innovate to cure the problem. I had I placed the sensor down stream further, it probably would have cured the issue, plus given it some cooling air from under the car, but that wasn't an option for me.
-The sensor has to be placed on the pipe in a way that condensation cannot run into it. This will instantly damage the sensor. I suspect this is one of the most common reason's for short sensor life.
I hope that helps!
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WDRacing
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Re: Experience with wideband substitute for narrowband (SR20
I read your other thread. From my experience with the LM1 and some reading around, it seems kinda straight forward. The factory O2 sensor needs to be connected to the harness, but doesn't need to be in the downpipe or manifold, just connected to the harness.
The analog output from the Innovate connects to the signal wire from the factory O2. To determine which wire is for the heater, use a multimeter. The one with 12v or more is the heater signal.
Don't install the factory sensor if it leaks. Use a plug, they are under 4 bucks at Summit. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-1195a/overview/
The analog output from the Innovate connects to the signal wire from the factory O2. To determine which wire is for the heater, use a multimeter. The one with 12v or more is the heater signal.
Don't install the factory sensor if it leaks. Use a plug, they are under 4 bucks at Summit. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-1195a/overview/
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DeXteR
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Re: Experience with wideband substitute for narrowband (SR20
Thanks for the replies.
I'm confident I've got the wiring figured out for the wideband now. I had an "aha" moment yesterday looking at the FSM.
Float, a lot of what you said echoes what the MTX-L manual says. Glad to hear you are having good luck with it.
WD, I have two downpipe options at my disposal - one has a bung and the other does not. If I leave the factory narrowband connected, it's going to heat up. So if I run the sensor for the heated signal, I might as well put it in the downpipe. It's post turbo and I don't have a converter, so a little exhaust leak is better than melting something to me.
So I think I'm going to put the wideband in the factory spot and run the wires for the narrowband without hooking it up. If the car runs like poo, I'll try putting the narrowband in and if that remedies everything, I'll swap downpipes or figure out a suitable mounting location.
I'm confident I've got the wiring figured out for the wideband now. I had an "aha" moment yesterday looking at the FSM.
Float, a lot of what you said echoes what the MTX-L manual says. Glad to hear you are having good luck with it.
WD, I have two downpipe options at my disposal - one has a bung and the other does not. If I leave the factory narrowband connected, it's going to heat up. So if I run the sensor for the heated signal, I might as well put it in the downpipe. It's post turbo and I don't have a converter, so a little exhaust leak is better than melting something to me.
So I think I'm going to put the wideband in the factory spot and run the wires for the narrowband without hooking it up. If the car runs like poo, I'll try putting the narrowband in and if that remedies everything, I'll swap downpipes or figure out a suitable mounting location.