EVERYONE, change your clutch fluid!!!!!!!

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joe603
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wjn38 wrote:i was reading this topic so i decided to check my clutch fluid and it looks like crappy brown color. i was reading all the posts and i was wondering if brake fluid and clutch fluid was the same because you posted that i should buy dot 4 brake fluid?? im confusid maybe this is a stupid question?
Not at all!! Clutch fluid is the same as brake or hydraulic fluid. DOT 4 just increases the boiling point to eliminate spent fluid. DOT 5 is is silicone based and you cannot mix 3/4/5.1 with 5. The problem with DOT 5 is that it will not absorb water (unlike 3/4/5.1). The water will find the lowest point in the line and cause corrosion. If you do mix 3/4/5.1 with 5, it causes a chemical reaction and could disrupt the operation of you system. DOT 5.1 is the same as 3/4, but much more expensive!

Type / Dry boiling point / Wet boiling pointDOT 3 / 205°C (401°F) / 140°C (284°F)DOT 4 / 230°C (446°F) / 155°C (311°F)DOT 5 / 260°C (500°F) / 180°C (356°F)DOT 5.1 / 270°C (518°F) / 191°C (375°F)


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WESIDE
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Question, Which grade should we use to replace? I am guessing 4?

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SpeedRacer1
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The FSM says you only need 3 for your brakes. The brake fluid in the brake system gets MUCH hotter than the brake fluid in the clutch piping, so I am quite sure 3 would be just fine for the clutch.


joe603
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SpeedRacer1 wrote:The FSM says you only need 3 for your brakes. The brake fluid in the brake system gets MUCH hotter than the brake fluid in the clutch piping, so I am quite sure 3 would be just fine for the clutch.
So you would think. But when you shift at high RPM, the fluid gets just as hot as the brake fluid. The result is the pedal not coming up from the floor after the fluid is boiled. Since I've upgraded to a synthetic DOT4 fluid, my clutch pedal has not stuck to the floor AT ALL!

I don't claim to be an engineer and cannot explain the ins and outs of fluid dynamics...but I do know that this method is used on the Corvette Z06, which had the same problem after a series of hard launches. Before I did this to my car, I did a bit of research...as anyone should.

I would guess that DOT3 fluid for brakes is not optimal either, but you don't notice the effects...stopping distance might increase 5-10 feet in panic stops, but you wouldn't notice that in every day driving. When I change my brake fluid, I will upgrade to at least DOT 4. I need to do more research on DOT5.1 first.

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SpeedRacer1
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joe603 wrote:
So you would think. But when you shift at high RPM, the fluid gets just as hot as the brake fluid.
Uh no
joe603 wrote:I would guess that DOT3 fluid for brakes is not optimal either, but you don't notice the effects...stopping distance might increase 5-10 feet in panic stops, but you wouldn't notice that in every day driving.
Uh no

joe603
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care to elaborate? ....maybe say more than two words??

USAF_G35_Guy
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what is the price difference between DOT4 and 5.1?

I'm one of those guys that buys the namebrand/top of the line stuff if it's worth while. Kinda like Synthetic over Dino.

And yes....I just checked my slave cylinder, and grrr....I have have the same mucky brown diarrhea yumminess in mine. So yup...I'll be flushing it tomorrow or this weekend.

Great Thread BTW

and a little info.....

DOT 5.1Should not be confused with DOT 5, a silicone based fluid.

DOT 5.1 is one of several designations of brake fluid denoting a particular mixture of chemicals imparting specified ranges of boiling point.

In the United States, all brake fluids must meet federal standard #116. Under this standard there are three Department of Transportation (DOT) minimal specifications for brake fluid. They are DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1.

DOT 5.1, like DOT 3 and DOT 4, is a polyethylene glycol-based fluid (contrasted with DOT 5 which is silicone-based). Fluids such as DOT 5.1 are hygroscopic and will absorb water from the atmosphere. This degrades the fluid's performance by drastically reducing its boiling point. In a passenger car this is not much of an issue, but can be of serious concerns in racecars ( like the G35! or motorcycles.

As of 2006, most cars produced in the U.S. use DOT 3 brake fluid.

Boiling points

Minimal boiling points for these specifications are as follows:Boiling Point Ranges Dry Boiling Point Wet Boiling PointDOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)DOT 5 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F) <-------the don't mix one, cause silicone instead of polyethylene glycol- based like the othersDOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C (375°F)

joe603
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Here's a Motul bottle...I'm still trying to find one local so I don't have to pay 50% of the cost on shipping!

http://www.buybrakes.com/store/MOTUL-8070HCM

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I did it.. Took me about 5 times for the fluid to be clean... it had i think 36k miles on the orignal... Thanks for the tip

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SpeedRacer1
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joe603 wrote:care to elaborate? ....maybe say more than two words??
I am not sure how much you actually know about the mechanics of cars, but the statement that clutch fluid gets as hot as brake fluid makes no sense.

It doesnt. Brake fluid gets hot because the fluid runs into the brake calipers. When a vehicle is braking the energy of the vehicle is being converted to thermal energy at the contact point of the brake pads and rotors. In other words, heat transfer is what stops a car. The more you brake, or harder you try to stop the hotter the brake componants get.

The clutch fluid system works nothing like the brake system. The clutch componants and flywheel are somewhat hot when somebody rides the clutch and causes undo friction. Also those componants are slightly warm already because they are bolted to the crank. However the fluid never touches the clutch or flywheel. The closest the fluid gets to the clutch is the outside of the bellhousing, and on a RWD car the inside of the bellhousing is hollow. The transmission will get warms because it is always moving, but it doesnt touch the slave cylinder or the fluid on a G35.

The path of heat transfer from the clutch to the fluid is this: Pressure plate, release bearing, release bearing sleave, clutch fork/lever, push rod in slave cylinder, then to the fluid. So the heat has to travel through a bearing, a thin piece of metal (fork), and an 1/8th inch push rod before it reaches any fluid. Not to mention the slave cylinder is located outside the transmission so it is cooled by the air. How does this manage to equal near boiling brake fluid? Granted I will give you that the clutch fluid piping does run through the engine bay, but that means it will only soak some of the heat given off by the engine, and while it is hot under the hood, its not that hot.

Therefore shifting regardless of RPM, the fluid shouldnt be any hotter or cooler except for the heat the engine is making under the hood at those temps. I cannot explain your pedal problems, but I have been around plenty of cars that do not have the problem you reported.

Onto fluids. The bottom line here is that Nissan/Infiniti says that DOT3 is fine. Its not like 4 is somehow greatly superior to 4, 4 just has a higher boiling point. Higher boiling points are great and all, but 99% of drivers never heat up their brakes enough on the street to warrant the temps the 4 can provide for.

Fluid is fluid, it cannot help stop a car in a shorter distance because of its higher boiling properties, unless you are comparing stopping when fluid is cold vs stopping with overheated fluid. You are trying to stop a vehicle of a given weight. The BEST way to make a car stop in shorter distances is to drop its weight. Other factors such as upgraded brakes, better tires, properly inflated tires, and ambiant condition will help stop in shorter distances. The higher boiling temps help when you are looking for performance on the track because the fluid will hold its properties better, longer. I am not sure how it would help in panic stops, unless you are doing multiple panic stops in a row, thus heating up the brakes.

DOT 5 and 5.1 are options, but there are other things to take into consideration. Water and contaminants cause lower boiling temps. Since DOT3 and 4 are at least a small percent water they are capable of absorbing it a little better than 5 which just isolates the fluid. This causes corrosion issues inside the lines. DOT5 can also break down greases and cause other problems in the system, these become contaminants and obviously lower boiling temps. One other thing to consider is that once you add silicone based 5, you will never fully remove it from your system if you switch back to 3 or 4.

Now just for reference I use ATE Super Blue Racing Fluid (DOT4), in my 240SX. Its blue which makes proper bleeding of the system easy. Bleed the fluid, you know you've bled the system once the fluid goes from yellowisg orange to blue.

*I did not proofread this after typing...

joe603
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Good info...however

...the clutch fluid does get hot, and gets hotter when you drive aggressively; the harder you push it, the more friction is induced. Check out this thread from a vette forum, some of their clutches have the same issues that some of our G35/350z's have:

http://forums.corvetteforum.co...08838

Another...

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/....html


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SpeedRacer1
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That info along with a couple other threads still sound more like theory than any actual fact. Some who have had "impotent" pedals say they fixed their problems with replaced slave cylinders, some think its boiling because the line is close to the exhaust manifold. The only problem I see with this is that there are plenty of clutch piping systems that are very close to even hotter exhaust manifolds.

Ive never heard of this ever happening on a 240SX, and the piping has to travel over the turbo (on swapped/turbo 240's) to get to the slave cylinder.

Bottom line is if your going to change the fluid, dont half a$$ it with some turkey baster. Bleed the system properly. It really doesnt take that much time or technical know-how.

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then what would you explain is the problem with the cluch pedal... Is that some type of safty thing that INFINITI uses to prevent the car from spinning out of control. That is my only guess becasue the only way to vary the power from the motor to the wheels in a manual is by using the clutch. wouldn't that be why our pedals stick to the floor? It keeps the pedal in so that it doesn't have to match the revs and apply more power than is needed to the wheels. It is like the manual VDC

joe603
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That's what I initially thought...but not everyone has this problem, which is weird in itself.

Using a syringe to remove the spent fluid is just a quick and clean way to replace the nasty fluid. If you want to bleed it, then by all means go ahead.

I've heard of other solutions to fix the problem such as: drilling a hole (not sure where), replacing the rubber line with steel, and replacing the entire clutch....now if you replace the clutch and the problem goes away, then you would think that the clutch is the culprit.

All I know is that going to a higher rated DOT fluid stops the clutch pedal from sticking to the floor.

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SpeedRacer1
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One last thing I did not realize, some vettes have the slave cylinder "inside" the bellhousing, and thus the fluid comes into much greater contact with the heat from clutch componants. This may account for their boiling issues. However the G35 slave cylinder is outside the bellhousing...

joe603
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....so why is it that the higher DOT level stops the clutch pedal from sticking to the floor with high RPM launches???

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SpeedRacer1
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I just said that the slave cylinder on the other cars you are referring to is internal. Meaning it heats up more because it is in much greater contact with hot clutch parts. The fluid actually runs into the bellhousing, goes into the slave cylinder which is mounted next to the pressure plate, and comes back out. So the fluid IS getting hotter on those other cars.

But there is no reason fluid should get that hot on a G35 since it has an external slave cylinder.

accordfreak
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thanks for the info. i'll check mine out.

coupleGs
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Correct. The clutch fluid should't get hot. It's sort of like the powersteering fluid. It's just hydraulic fluid used to lube and keep pressure.

Shoundnt get hot, but only one way to find out. After a couple hour drive, stick ur finger in the resevior and feel it. Should be cool.

Also, if the G35 Slave cylinder is external, anyone know exactly where it is? I can't see to find it and want to change my fluid.

Don't want to syphon is out cause thats just a waste of time.

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My pedal is still sticking sometimes. Just not as much as it was. What could be causing this to happen?

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SpeedRacer1
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coupleGs wrote:Also, if the G35 Slave cylinder is external, anyone know exactly where it is? I can't see to find it and want to change my fluid.
Its on the drivers side of the transmission, near the exhaust manifold. So be sure the exhaust is cool before working in that area. It is the black thing strapped to the trans in the pic...


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infinititech1
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i never saw this happen on any g35 i worked on or never had this complaint...of course i didn't go out popping customers clutches all the time either. there is no safety feature on the car to keep it staying on the floor. i pulled many of those transmissions out. the fluid will not boil. i'll chime back in this thread later this evening

joe603
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Thanks Drew! Any info would be greatly appreciated!!

The main questions are: why does changing the fluid have any impact on how the clutch responds? ...Why does this only affect a certain # of cars? How can we fix it without getting an aftermarket clutch?

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Maybe it is the 05 and 06 models. I talked to someone that i got my mid pipe from he doesn't have that problem. He had a 04 Coupe!

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infinititech1
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honestly i dont think there is a way that the fluid could cause that to happen...

coupleGs
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is it just me or what? but i don't see a bleeder screw anywhere on that slave cylinder.

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SpeedRacer1
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coupleGs wrote:is it just me or what? but i don't see a bleeder screw anywhere on that slave cylinder.
Whats that...


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looks like 1 to me

joe603
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Drew, is this problem covered in the factory warranty? I have less than 24k and the clutch isn't slipping.

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yea i have 37k is that covered


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