Event Data Recorders.

[rn79870]

I decided to read my Infiniti manual, well, slowly skim it anyway. Nothing really out of the ordinary until I came to this…EDR (Event Data Recorder)

From the manual…This vehicle is equipped with an Event Data Recorder (EDR) The main purpose of an EDR is to record, in certain crash or crash like situations, such as air bag deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will assist in understanding how a vehicles systems performed….…The EDR in this vehicle is designed to record such data as:How various systems in your vehicle were operating.Whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were fastened.How far, if at all, the driver was depressing the accelerator/brake pedalHow fast the vehicle was traveling.

The section further states that accessing the data requires special equipment and that Infiniti dealers, AND law enforcement agencies, have this equipment. It also states the data can be accessed during servicing or at the request of law enforcement as permitted by law. ( A reason NOT to have your vehicle serviced by an Infiniti dealer?)

I’m not planning on driving in such a way that this should matter, however, I really don’t like big brother riding everywhere with me in my car. I wouldn’t be at all upset if this little black box ceased working. However, I’m afraid it might be part of the Vehicle control unit. Does anyone know where it is in the car, and whether they these little jewels (the EDR) can “break” without causing much of a problem?

Is this new for 2008? Look in your manual for Event Data Recorder and see if you are lucky enough to have one and let us know.

[telcoman]

I decided to read my Infiniti manual, well, slowly skim it anyway. Nothing really out of the ordinary until I came to this…EDR (Event Data Recorder)

From the manual…This vehicle is equipped with an Event Data Recorder (EDR) The main purpose of an EDR is to record, in certain crash or crash like situations, such as air bag deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will assist in understanding how a vehicles systems performed….…The EDR in this vehicle is designed to record such data as:How various systems in your vehicle were operating.Whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were fastened.How far, if at all, the driver was depressing the accelerator/brake pedalHow fast the vehicle was traveling.

The section further states that accessing the data requires special equipment and that Infiniti dealers, AND law enforcement agencies, have this equipment. It also states the data can be accessed during servicing or at the request of law enforcement as permitted by law. ( A reason NOT to have your vehicle serviced by an Infiniti dealer?)

I’m not planning on driving in such a way that this should matter, however, I really don’t like big brother riding everywhere with me in my car. I wouldn’t be at all upset if this little black box ceased working. However, I’m afraid it might be part of the Vehicle control unit. Does anyone know where it is in the car, and whether they these little jewels (the EDR) can “break” without causing much of a problem?

Is this new for 2008? Look in your manual for Event Data Recorder and see if you are lucky enough to have one and let us know.

rn79870

Welcome to NICOI found this in google

http://www.harristechnical.com...3.pdf

In reading your post it sounds as though you have something nefarious in mind? You may well be violating federal as well as state law if you tamper with the recorder. Insurance companies can make a case that if they are insuring your vehicle they have a right to that information in regards to having to pay a claim and determine who was at fault.A similar big brother argument was made over 30 years ago when seat belts were first being deployed. Many company owned vehicles today not only have event recorders but GPS as well. Employees can be tracked quite easily.Here in the east we have toll roads with EZ Pass which is a transponder that records tolls without having to stop at a toll booth. They can tell where you are and if they wanted to calculate how fast you were traveling between toll booths. Welcome to the world in 2008.Enjoy your vehicle & just because it will do 150 MPH doesn't mean you should be driving that fast on public highways and risk your life as well as others. It only takes one mistake to possibly ruin your life and others as well.

If you obey the law you have nothing to worry about.

Just my $.02 from an old farht.

Telcoman

[rn79870]

Thanks telcoman.That article you googled was interesting. I had no idea the EDR was so in depth. Thanks for the effort.

I don't drive bad, and in fact, have no tickets or accidents on my record. I typically keep up with traffic which moves at speeds above the posted limits here on the SoCal freeways (75-80).

Let this be a warning to others who participate in questionable activities. A 2008+ G is going to tell it like it is it you have a problem.

[bublightyear]

ok, definately sparked my curiosity (or maybe just a little paranoid since the crash)...but what section of the manual did you find the EDR in? unless I missed it the 2005 doesn't have it woohoo!!!

[telcoman]

ok, definately sparked my curiosity (or maybe just a little paranoid since the crash)...but what section of the manual did you find the EDR in? unless I missed it the 2005 doesn't have it woohoo!!!

Do a search in google for "event data recorders"

http://www.harristechnical.com...t.pdf

I don't drive bad either. Here in NJ at least in the early morning the traffic moves between 75 & 80. My point was that if one has the misfortune to encounter some other stupid a$$hole & get involved in an accident the EDR can point out your speed, braking etc even if the other person was in an old AMC Gremlin doing 25 MPH in the left lane on a 65 MPH roadway.

Telcoman

[zozoka1212]

I believe it is on the 07 also. I remember the dealer was talking about before the first testdrive.

zozo

[rn79870]

Telco man gave me a direction with his Google response.(Thanks again telcoman, it never occurred to me to google.) There is a ton of stuff out there on the internet including a HR bill (the House of Representatives) that will require the dealers to inform the owners on how to disable it. Problem is that that bill will not take effect, if it even passes, until 2010, with the 2010 cars. http://www.motorists.org/edr/h...-1015/This citation also includes the reasons why the EDR is not our savior.

In the mean time, the EDR appears to be hooked up to the airbag sensor system and disabling that would violate fed law. (plus, it would kill the airbags which isn’t good at all.)

The bad news, the EDR’s have been around since the 1990’s. GM and Ford and Toyota have had them for at least 10+ years. (With On-Star it appears that they can even monitor your in car conversations without your permission) Infiniti started much later than the domestic cars, however, I can’t tell when.. (you’ll will have to call Infiniti if you really want to know- and they are under no obligation to tell you on older cars) The fact that there is a “EDR” entry in my manual is due to a new law here in California that states the owner must be notified that his/her vehicle has an EDR, and what information the EDR collects. Prior to 2008 the manufacturer was under no obligation to so inform you, and in fact, HID it from you. Also, in California, the data is the property of the Registered owner, but once your car is totaled, and you are paid, you are no longer the registered owner. There is also a discussion that the insurance company may not payout unless you allow them to access the info.

Here is a site with many cases where EDR data was allowed in court and the drivers were convicted.http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr5.htm

One for manslaughter when her passenger died after she crashed and she was shown, by her EDR, to be traveling 57mph in a 40mph zone. BUT, the EDR has vindicated drivers too, as you will see in some of the citations on that site.

The bottom line is this. Drive sane and civil all the time and you SHOULD have no problem. So you drive correctly and guess what, the box malfunctions. (yes, it does)I am against a little black box showing up in court and being used as evidence when I have no access to it, no way to test it and no access to known bugs issues with it. (like if your wheels leave the ground or the car rolls over, wet pavement, when a tire comes off, or whatever and the device records erroneous data) .

To those who participate in an occasional street race. The EDR is another reason to “just say no.” If you are involved in an accident, your little black box is going to tell them your speed and the fact that you were wide open and for how many seconds you were driving like that. Bad news for you. Drive safely, live long.

(I see that telcoman cites some of this data, and I apologize for reposting it, I’m too lazy to reedit it. – thanks for your help telcoman)

[telcoman]

rn79870

Thank you for spending the time reading all of that information.

We all have to realize that since 9/11 and the shootings in Virgina last year cameras, data recorders, etc are being installed all over. In New York City for example, if you use a Metro Card as everyone must since they did away with cash & tokens, that information is recorded. It shows the time of entry etc & a criminal with a stolen card can be tracked. If you use a cell phone you can be tracked. Criminals wearing ankle bracelets are wearing a custom cell phones around their ankles. So if you are driving a car much information is or can be collected about you.For law abing citizens I do not see this as a problem. For those that get really upset over this they can always go live under the Taliban.

[zozoka1212]

rn I see this differently.

See the link you posted most case there was about serious injury(death) or homice investigation.

Nothing minor things.

Also it can save your a$$ too. Say there is no witness somebody hit you with high speed. Who's going to beleive you you were not racing with the guy. Well if you have the EDR box you can tell them to use it as your witness and you are free to go.

There would be probably more good point of it then bad. As long as you are not a criminal.

zozo

[rn79870]

rn I see this differently.

See the link you posted most case there was about serious injury(death) or homice investigation.

Nothing minor things.

Also it can save your a$$ too. Say there is no witness somebody hit you with high speed. Who's going to beleive you you were not racing with the guy. Well if you have the EDR box you can tell them to use it as your witness and you are free to go.

There would be probably more good point of it then bad. As long as you are not a criminal.

zozo

You're absolutely right zozo. It is a two sided sword. My concern is that insurance companies and police departments may not be trained in the nuances of each manufactures data collection and that that lack of training may cause unfair, even erroneous assumptions on their part. Perhaps the answer is standardization and education. (which I believe is proposed). In the meantime, humans just assume that all data from a computer printout is accurate and correct. We know better...

[zozoka1212]

You are right. I am sure there was/is/will be faulty reading. But I am sure there is a process to eliminate it. At least I hope so. You always can defend yourself against a computer malfunction. After all they have to prove the datas are accurate.

I just can't see the situation when the computer read faulty and all the other evidences against you at the same time.

They only used the black boxes where they were short of evidences. Usually they don't use it all. There is more then enough evidences and witnesses around most of the cases.

Don't forget they have to prove you are guilty not the way around.

zozo

[telcoman]

Thanks telcoman.That article you googled was interesting. I had no idea the EDR was so in depth. Thanks for the effort.

I don't drive bad, and in fact, have no tickets or accidents on my record. I typically keep up with traffic which moves at speeds above the posted limits here on the SoCal freeways (75-80).

Let this be a warning to others who participate in questionable activities. A 2008+ G is going to tell it like it is it you have a problem.

More on EDR

Event data recorderFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, searchAn Event Data Recorder or EDR is a device installed in some automobiles and trucks to record information related to vehicle crashes or accidents. Information from these devices can be collected after a crash and analyzed to help determine what the vehicles were doing before, during and after the crash or event. The term generally refers to a simple, tamper-proof, read-write memory device, similar to the "black box" found on airplanes (as opposed to the tape recorders and video cameras common in police vehicles and many commercial trucks).

Contents [hide]1 Operation 2 Practice 3 Use as evidence in courts 4 Disabling an EDR 5 Notable 6 Video Event Data Recorder 7 See also 8 External links 9 References

[edit] OperationThere are many different patents related to various types of EDR features. Some EDRs continuously record data, overwriting the previous few minutes until a crash stops them, and others are activated by crash-like events (such as sudden changes in velocity) and may continue to record until the accident is over, or until the recording time is expired. EDRs may record a wide range of data elements, potentially including whether or not the brakes were used, the speed at the time of impact, the steering angle, and whether seat belt circuits were shown as "Buckled" or "Unbuckled" at the time of the crash. Current EDRs store the information internally on an EEPROM until recovered from the module. Some vehicles have communications systems (such as GM's OnStar system) which may transmit some data such as an alert that the airbags have been deployed, to a remote location.

Most EDR's in automobiles and light trucks are part of the restraint system control module, which senses impact accelerations and decides what restraints (airbags and/or seatbelt tensioners) to deploy. After the deployment (or non-deployment) decisions are made, and if there is still power available, the data is written to memory. The data download from older EDRs usually contained 6 to 8 pages of information, though many newer systems include many more data elements and require more pages, depending on the make/model/year of the vehicle being evaluated. Depending on the type of EDR, it may contain either a deployment file or a non-deployment file or sometimes both, depending upon the circumstances of the collisions and the time interval between them, among other things. [1]

It is also possible no data can be recovered from a data recorder. One situation where this might occur might be a catastrophic loss of electrical power early in a collision event. In this situation, the power reserve in the air bag control module capacitors may be completely spent in order to deploy the air bags, leaving insufficient power to write data to the EEPROM. [2] There are other circumstances where a module may fail to record a data file as well.

Most EDR's in heavy trucks are part of the engine electronic control module, which controls fuel injection timing and other functions in modern heavy-duty diesel engines. The EDR functions are different for different engine manufacturers, but most recognize engine events such as sudden stops, oil pressure, or coolant loss. When an event occurs, data is written to memory. The data can later be downloaded using the applicable computer software and cables. Many engine manufacturers offer sophisticated software tools to allow monitoring of driver hours of service, fuel economy, idle time, average travel speeds, and other information.

This 2001 paper by W.R. "Rusty" Haight of Collision Safety Institute gives some of the history of EDRs and their use: Automobile Event Data Recorder (EDR) Technology - Evolution, Data, and Reliability.

[edit] PracticeVarious groups in the United States have been engaged in lobbying the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to develop a uniform standard for EDRs or VEDR (Video Event Data Recorder), and many support the introduction of legislation requiring installation of the devices in all new automobiles. Because EDRs are not currently required by law, usage of the device varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer. General Motors and Ford implement the technology on most of their recent models, while Mercedes-Benz does not use EDRs at all. As of 2003, there were at least 40 million vehicles equipped with the devices.[3]

As of August 2006, the NHTSA published a final rule [1] standardizing requirements for EDR's voluntarily installed on all vehicles manufactured after September 1, 2010, but stopped short of requiring their installation. [2]

Conducting a bench download Downloading a module via the DLCDownloading an airbag module in most vehicles is best accomplished by connecting the appropriate scanning tool to the Diagnostic Link Connector (DLC) usually found under the vehicle's dashboard near the driver's knees. The photo to the right shows a DLC download in progress using the Vetronix CDR Tool. Alternately, some modules can be downloaded "on the bench" after removal from the vehicle, as shown to the left.

[edit] Use as evidence in courtsDespite alerts and warnings in their vehicles' owners' manuals, many drivers are not aware of their vehicle's recording capability. Civil liberty and privacy groups have raised concerns about the implications of data recorders 'spying' on car users, particularly as the issue of 'who owns the data' has not yet been fully resolved, and there has been some controversy over the use of recorded data as evidence in court cases and for insurance claims against the driver of a crashed vehicle.

There have been a small number of cases in which a defendant was convicted as a result of data obtained from EDRs. Examples include:

In New South Wales, Australia, a teenaged woman (a probationary driver) was convicted of dangerous driving "causing death/occasioning grievous bodily harm" in 2005. Evidence from the Peugeot's EDR showed that the car was being driven in excess of the posted speed limit. An injunction against the use of EDR evidence, obtained by the owner of the car (the parents of the defendant), was overturned in the NSW Supreme Court. In Quebec, Canada, the driver of a car who sped through a red light, crashing into another car at the intersection and killing the other driver, was convicted of "dangerous driving" in 2001 after EDR information revealed that it was he, not the deceased driver of the other car (as the defendant asserted), that was speeding. There were no other witnesses to the crash. There have also been cases where data recovered from an EDR proved that the driver was obeying the speed limit.

Another discussion of EDRs and their use in court can be found here: Event Data Recorders and Their Role in Auto Accident Litigation, by Jason Koch

[edit] Disabling an EDR two GM sdms with wiring harness plugs.An EDR is typically mounted either under a front seat, inside the center console between the seats, or inside the dashboard. It is usually a square-ish box 4-5 inches on a side. It will have a yellow wiring harness plug, as do all airbag system components, and the plug is usually held in place by at least one "lock" to prevent it from coming dislodged inadvertently.

Do not disconnect or tamper with the EDR because it may prevent the airbags from working. An overly simplified explanation of the way the airbags work is that an accelerometer feeds a circuit that activates the crash algorithm if the accelerometer shows a steep deceleration for several cycles in a row. The crash algorithm does various things including activating the airbags.

Disabling the recording aspects of a module will almost certainly incapacitate the unit with regard to deploying airbags when desired, cause the airbag light to activate, and cost a great deal of money to fix (typical component replacement costs range for $500-$3,000 US).

Note that some states such as New York have laws that make it a misdemeanor to tamper with an EDR. In addition, companies modifying vehicle safety systems face steep fines from NHTSA.

[edit] NotableOn 12 April 2007, N.J. Governor Jon Corzine was seriously injured in an automobile accident. According to the superintendent of state police, an Event Data Recorder in the SUV he was traveling in recorded he was traveling at about 91 MPH five seconds before the crash. The speed limit on the road is 65 MPH.[4] The Governor was not the driver of the vehicle.

[edit] Video Event Data RecorderA Video Event Data Recorder (VEDR) is a device which records video in a vehicle both to create a record of accidents and for evaluating driver and vehicle performance.

An ambulance company in Ireland had installed VEDRs in their fleet and four accidents involving third parties and successfully recovered all costs from the third party insurance companies (RoadScan.co.uk).[citation needed]

[edit] See alsoTachograph Black box (transportation) List of Vehicles with Event Data Recorders

[edit] External linksList of US vehicle manufacturers with EDRs by model year US State laws on accessing EDR data records NHTSA EDR Site which discusses EDR technology US Department of Transportation docket 18029-1, regarding rulemaking for the EDR There's a spy in your car, CNN, 26 Nov 2006 VEDR Company: RoadScan Ltd. Mechanical Forensics Eng'g Svcs: A third party site discussing use of Vetronix/Bosch Crash Data Retrieval system to download EDRs Bosch Diagnostics: Sells the only tool currently available to the aftermarket (Dec 2007) for downloading airbag modules in Ford, GM, and Chrysler vehicles (formerly Vetronix Corporation).

[edit] References^ http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr.htm ^ http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr.htm ^ http://www.usatoday.com/news/n...x.htm USA Today article ^ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18158503/ This article contains text from Harris Technical Services and is used with permission of the author. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data ... Categories: All articles with unsourced statements | Articles with unsourced statements since April 2007 | Automotive technologies | Recorders

[rn79870]

Well done telcoman. Perhaps this should be mandatory reading for all drivers who are tempted to drive competitively on public streets. You are being watched by your very own car. The irony, it burns.

Thanks againn for the info.

[telcoman]

Well done telcoman. Perhaps this should be mandatory reading for all drivers who are tempted to drive competitively on public streets. You are being watched by your very own car. The irony, it burns.

Thanks againn for the info.

You are most welcome m79870

I cringe when reading some of the posts here regarding racing with the G35. What some do not realize that in a split second their life or others can be changed forever with possible death, injury, steep fines, lawyer and court costs as well as losing the vehicle & perhaps still having to pay for it. Ruined credit reports, possibly getting a criminal record, inability to get hired for a decent job all because they beat out some a#$hole while street racing.

Telcoman

[C-Kwik]

You're absolutely right zozo. It is a two sided sword. My concern is that insurance companies and police departments may not be trained in the nuances of each manufactures data collection and that that lack of training may cause unfair, even erroneous assumptions on their part. Perhaps the answer is standardization and education. (which I believe is proposed). In the meantime, humans just assume that all data from a computer printout is accurate and correct. We know better...

It's unlikely that such data will be extracted by an insurance company directly. I doubt we will see any insurance adjusters carrying around such equipment. The more likely scenario would be that an insurance company would hire an expert to extract the data and make the interpretation. As the data and it's interpretation will be dependent on other factors, it is important that the expert will need to see the vehicle, the scene of the accident and make observations to validate the data and interpret it correctly. Such experts work under the pretense that they may be called to the stand to testify as a witness to the data and the interpretation of it. As a result, they need to try and make the most accurate assessment they can. Keep in mind that forensic science makes it possible to recreate accidents with reasonable accuracy. An EDR would simply validate it, lessen some of the work required and/or fill in some blanks.

As for erroneous data, if such a rare situation exists, then it would likely conflict with even the most basic forensic observations that could be made about the accident.

An EDR is simply nothing more than another tool as far as accident investigations are concerned. It also has a very important use in making our cars and our roads safer.

[Jawigr77]

As a certified crash investigator, I can tell you the EDR technology is terrific. Only those that regularly drive unreasonably ought to worry. And don't ever think of disconnecting the EDR (black box). The EDR is the brains behind deployment of the air bags, making decisions as to deployment level in conjunction with seat belt use / non-use, and the decision to fire the seatbelt pre-tensioners. Unplug this and you get none of the above (and a yellow air bag warning light...). We use the EDR data to corroborate an accident investigation. The data alone is usualy insufficient to stand up without back-up data (the physical data at the crash site). Presently, we cannot download a Nissan / Infiniti EDR. The company has not sold the rights to download the data to the crash investigation world. Nissan R&D can download them for internal / litigation purposes. The traget date for downloading a Nissan product is probably closer to 2011. This should not change your driving style. Always drive smart regardless. The EDR is just another witness that may be used to make a point, good or bad. Cheers.

[JannaG]

Feds could require a black box in 2014 carsThe National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is now free to go ahead with a suggested mandate that would put black boxes -- like flight event data recorders -- into every United States car, starting September, 2014. But privacy issues have gotten the hackles up of some.