Even 4 year olds aren't safe.

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frapjap
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:wtf2: 4 year old who broke an 87 year old lady's hip. She died 3 weeks later, but still...

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/29/nyreg ... .html?_r=1

New York Times
4-Year-Old Can Be Sued, Judge Rules in Bike CaseBy ALAN FEUER
Published: October 28, 2010
Citing cases datinging cases dating back as far as 1928, a judge has ruled that a young girl accused of running down an elderly woman while racing a bicycle with training wheels on a Manhattan sidewalk two years ago can be sued for negligence.

The ruling by the judge, Justice Paul Wooten of State Supreme Court in Manhattan, did not find that the girl was liable, but merely permitted a lawsuit brought against her, another boy and their parents to move forward.

The suit that Justice Wooten allowed to proceed claims that in April 2009, Juliet Breitman and Jacob Kohn, who were both 4, were racing their bicycles, under the supervision of their mothers, Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn, on the sidewalk of a building on East 52nd Street. At some point in the race, they struck an 87-year-old woman named Claire Menagh, who was walking in front of the building and, according to the complaint, was “seriously and severely injured,” suffering a hip fracture that required surgery. She died three weeks later.

Her estate sued the children and their mothers, claiming they had acted negligently during the accident. In a response, Juliet’s lawyer, James P. Tyrie, argued that the girl was not “engaged in an adult activity” at the time of the accident — “She was riding her bicycle with training wheels under the supervision of her mother” — and was too young to be held liable for negligence.

In legal papers, Mr. Tyrie added, “Courts have held that an infant under the age of 4 is conclusively presumed to be incapable of negligence.” (Rachel and Jacob Kohn did not seek to dismiss the case against them.)

But Justice Wooten declined to stretch that rule to children over 4. On Oct. 1, he rejected a motion to dismiss the case because of Juliet’s age, noting that she was three months shy of turning 5 when Ms. Menagh was struck, and thus old enough to be sued.

Mr. Tyrie “correctly notes that infants under the age of 4 are conclusively presumed incapable of negligence,” Justice Wooten wrote in his decision, referring to the 1928 case. “Juliet Breitman, however, was over the age of 4 at the time of the subject incident. For infants above the age of 4, there is no bright-line rule.”

The New York Law Journal reported the decision on Thursday.

Mr. Tyrie had also argued that Juliet should not be held liable because her mother was present; Justice Wooten disagreed.

“A parent’s presence alone does not give a reasonable child carte blanche to engage in risky behavior such as running across a street,” the judge wrote. He added that any “reasonably prudent child,” who presumably has been told to look both ways before crossing a street, should know that dashing out without looking is dangerous, with or without a parent there. The crucial factor is whether the parent encourages the risky behavior; if so, the child should not be held accountable.

In Ms. Menagh’s case, however, there was nothing to indicate that Juliet’s mother “had any active role in the alleged incident, only that the mother was ‘supervising,’ a term that is too vague to hold meaning here,” he wrote. He concluded that there was no evidence of Juliet’s “lack of intelligence or maturity” or anything to “indicate that another child of similar age and capacity under the circumstances could not have reasonably appreciated the danger of riding a bicycle into an elderly woman.”

Mr. Tyrie, Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn did not respond to messages seeking comment.


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Encryptshun
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This is awesome. I'm gonna sue every single trick-or-treater who comes to my house this year for excessive wear and tear to my sidewalk.

And anyone who thinks a 4-year-old doesn't have the capacity to kill has obviously never seen "The Omen."

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Jesda
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She'll be putting in overtime at the lemonade stand until she's 30

Alfador
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Honestly there is precedent for this. It's not even really a suit against the child. As in every case where a minor is "sued" it is really the parents that will be represented on behalf of the child and the parents whom judgment will be issued against. To be honest the better course would be to just sue the parents outright, since there was some serious failure to properly supervise. Jackasses who can't keep their kids acting like decent human beings are irritating as hell. I kind of hope they lose.

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AppleBonker
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I was expecting something completely different from the thread title...

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ADDirishboy
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Alfador wrote:Honestly there is precedent for this. It's not even really a suit against the child. As in every case where a minor is "sued" it is really the parents that will be represented on behalf of the child and the parents whom judgment will be issued against. To be honest the better course would be to just sue the parents outright, since there was some serious failure to properly supervise. Jackasses who can't keep their kids acting like decent human beings are irritating as hell. I kind of hope they lose.
The kids were racing their bikes on a sidewalk, I'm not seeing how that is an awful thing to let a child do. Sounds like the girl accidentally hit a person. Now tell me, super dad, how are you supposed to know when your kid is about to accidentally hit something?

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ADDirishboy wrote:
Alfador wrote:Honestly there is precedent for this. It's not even really a suit against the child. As in every case where a minor is "sued" it is really the parents that will be represented on behalf of the child and the parents whom judgment will be issued against. To be honest the better course would be to just sue the parents outright, since there was some serious failure to properly supervise. Jackasses who can't keep their kids acting like decent human beings are irritating as hell. I kind of hope they lose.
The kids were racing their bikes on a sidewalk, I'm not seeing how that is an awful thing to let a child do. Sounds like the girl accidentally hit a person. Now tell me, super dad, how are you supposed to know when your kid is about to accidentally hit something?
and the fact that she 4 years old. :gotme :gotme

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Dattebayo
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Jesda wrote:She'll be putting in overtime at the lemonade stand until she's 30
Then, just maybe she'll be ready for you. Hope you like lemonade.

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93coupe
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This country is full of sue happy pansies, She was 87. It was time to die anyway.

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ADDirishboy
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93coupe wrote:This country is full of sue happy pansies, She was 87. It was time to die anyway.
Agreed. Who the hell wants to live that long anyway?

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93coupe
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Not this guy. If I am not agile enough to move out of the way of a baby on a bike, I deserve to die. That's like not being able to get out of the way of a retarded squirrel riding a power wheels car.

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PoorManQ45
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Alfador wrote: Jackasses who can't keep their kids acting like decent human beings are irritating as hell. I kind of hope they lose.
And jackasses that don't allow their kids to be kids shouldn't have them in the first place!

These kids were "racing" their bicycles, with training wheels, down the sidewalk. At 4 years old I'd bet that they were moving at a fast walking pace.

What you're probably not hearing is that this grandmother had osteoporosis and her hip could have broken by simply moving too fast!

Accidents happen. It's an effed up society when you sue a kid for negligence when they were intending to have harmless fun.

I would hate to see some kids playing stick ball these days. Could you imagine all the pain and suffering of a pedestrian being accidentally hit with that ball!

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93coupe
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WILD CARD: What if there was a motorcycle with hot exhaust on the sidewalk?!

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ProudNissanFreak
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93coupe wrote:WILD CARD: What if there was a motorcycle with hot exhaust on the sidewalk?!
:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

Win.

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PoorManQ45
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93coupe wrote:WILD CARD: What if there was a motorcycle with hot exhaust on the sidewalk?!
Thanks man, I just had milk come out of my nose! That crap hurts! :spitout:

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Red coupe
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ADDirishboy wrote: Now tell me, super dad, how are you supposed to know when your kid is about to accidentally hit something?
Actually... its pretty easy.

Right about the time they are racing around something that is there to be hit.


Not going to take sides on this one yet...
But I work for a race team, and the girl who cooks for us frequently brings her 4 year old along. I have dealt with him, bikes and accidentally hitting things (as well as keeping things from accidentally hitting him :eek: ) PLENTY.

We simply do not let him ride where there are things for him to hit.
Nice cars or the legs of the easy up? He is quick to get yelled at if he is headed that way.

You can be damn sure that kid would not be "racing" towards a borderline 90 year old woman for long before one of us snatched him straight off the bike.

I don't know what the parents were doing... But if there is a 90 year old woman trying to make it down the side walk, you BETTER not be sending kids off after her on tricycles... especially not when they are distracted with competition and in-experienced on bikes. If you do, I can't help but see you as at least partially responsible for not anticipating what will happen when you let your kid try and speed around an old lady on a bike.

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Red coupe wrote:...if there is a 90 year old woman trying to make it down the side walk, you BETTER not be sending kids off after her on tricycles...
:rotfl

You make it sound like they were launched like RPG's.
Red coupe wrote:especially not when they are distracted with competition and in-experienced on bikes. If you do, I can't help but see you as at least partially responsible for not anticipating what will happen when you let your kid try and speed around an old lady on a bike.
Alfador wrote: Jackasses who can't keep their kids acting like decent human beings are irritating as hell. I kind of hope they lose.
:rolleyes: :facepalm:

The opinions of non-parents are hilariously ignorant.

Racing tricycles down a sidewalk makes them NOT "decent human beings"? :wtf2:

Let me ask you brilliant gentlemen a question... What if the kid is 18 months old and toddles in front of the old bag, she trips, topples over and breaks a hip? You gonna throw the book at that one too?

If either of you think you can "control" a 4-year old at all times, you're a better man than I am. :rolleyes: Wear a condom - PLEASE.

Thank God none of my kids ever joined a murderous tricycle gang. :rotfl

Sometimes an accident is just an accident.

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Dattebayo
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AZhitman wrote:Sometimes an accident is just an accident.
Obviously someone hasn't been brainwashed enough by the media lately. You need to see the movie "The Orphan".

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ADDirishboy
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AZhitman wrote: Sometimes an accident is just an accident.
This.

There are situations that arise where no one is at fault. Unfortunately, lawyers have made people think the exact opposite. Thanks to the a$$ on this planet, the rule of thumb is now "For everything that ever happens ever, there is someone to blame and money to be made."

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Dattebayo
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That's kind of ironic, because that's the way 4 year olds think when they get hurt...

Edit: Replace money with something else, you get what I mean... :rolleyes: lol

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nissangirl74
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Who wants to bet that the old woman's kids are about to collect unemployment check number 99??

Go get a job and leave that baby alone. For f***'s sake! :rolleyes:

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AZhitman
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Dattebayo wrote:
AZhitman wrote:Sometimes an accident is just an accident.
Obviously someone hasn't been brainwashed enough by the media lately. You need to see the movie "The Orphan".
...which is precisely why I make sense (most of the time, anyway). I rarely, if ever, watch TV or movies.

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PoorManQ45
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AZhitman wrote:
...which is precisely why I make sense (most of the time, anyway). I rarely, if ever, watch TV or movies.
That's crazy old Greg for you!

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Crazyirish
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This is not surprising. This is to be expected in a society where money is more valuable than self respect.

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93coupe
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Dattebayo wrote: You need to see the movie "The Orphan".
:ohno: Blew my mind.

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Dattebayo
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nissangirl74 wrote:Who wants to bet that the old woman's kids are about to collect unemployment check number 99??

Go get a job and leave that baby alone. For f***'s sake! :rolleyes:
Meh.

I'd wager more on her being a bitter old hag and they were the children who had to put up with her. Maybe I'd feel like taking my life out on someone else if I had to deal with someone like that too. But perhaps thanks are in order instead?

I bet those little fu*kers planned the whole thing as she was yelling at them for riding on the sidewalk. She probably carried on so much the neighbors paid them off in candy to do so. Smart neighbors, poor execution. Shoulda got a professional!

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PoorManQ45
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Dattebayo wrote:
I bet those little fu*kers planned the whole thing as she was yelling at them for riding on the sidewalk. She probably carried on so much the neighbors paid them off in candy to do so. Smart neighbors, poor execution. Shoulda got a professional!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjLtdUitlC8[/youtube]

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Red coupe
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AZhitman wrote:You make it sound like they were launched like RPG's.
To a 90 year old they may as well be.
OK, little stretch... but come on, by the time a lot of people are 90 they are not exactly in the position to jump out of anyones way. 2 tricicles side by side with a little gap between then take up the majority of a sidewalk, and does not leave much room for an old woman.
Like I said, I can't cast blame with out knowing the full setup, but in a case where a parent is letting two 4 year olds ride their bike at an elderly woman I definitely support blaming the parents.
AZhitman wrote:The opinions of non-parents are hilariously ignorant.
...
Let me ask you brilliant gentlemen a question... What if the kid is 18 months old and toddles in front of the old bag, she trips, topples over and breaks a hip? You gonna throw the book at that one too?

If either of you think you can "control" a 4-year old at all times, you're a better man than I am. :rolleyes: Wear a condom - PLEASE.
Sometimes an accident is just an accident.
There is a major difference here. Accidents do happen, and you can never completely control any other person... especially a 4 year old.
You certainly are not going to have complete control over a young child on their bike, but you need to at least TRY to have them do the right thing. The kids hitting the old woman, that is an accident. The mothers not doing anything until it happens... That is not.

Again, I am not taking a firm stance on this either way... and neither should any of you since we are really missing a lot of important information. But as I said before, two tricycles + space to ride does not leave much room on the sidewalk.
Sometimes accidents ARE just accidents, but that sure as hell does not apply when it the situation is easily predictable.

When you are watching two 4 year olds taking up the entire sidewalk while closing on a 90 year old woman at 3 or 4 times her speed of movement you better be able to predict something has a pretty good chance of happening, and if you can't YOU are the one who should probably be keeping those rubbers close by.

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ADDirishboy wrote:
93coupe wrote: She was 87. It was time to die anyway.
Agreed. Who the hell wants to live that long anyway?
I do, if my health continues to be good.

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AZhitman
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Still ridiculous.

As you said, we don't know the whole story, but that'll all come out in court. And the judge here just allowed the case to go forward... doesn't mean he's not thinking, "Sure, dumbass, waste your attorney fees suing a 4-year old....I'ma grab some popcorn."
Red coupe wrote:2 tricicles side by side with a little gap between then take up the majority of a sidewalk

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