Ethanol sneeks into Georgia

[Q45tech]

ALBANY, Ga. — Seven Atlanta-area Shell gas stations that sold ethanol-enhanced gasoline were forced to close over the weekend after officials found water in their underground storage tanks.

“Best case scenario, if you have water in your tank, it will cause your car to run rough,” Georgia Agriculture Commissioner Tommy Irvin said to the Albany (Ga.) Herald. “Worse case scenario, it will cause your car to stop.”

Water that seeps into underground tanks typically sinks to the bottom, but in an ethanol blend, it flows throughout the mixture, Irvin said to the Herald.

Georgia permits as much as an inch of water in regular underground tanks, but tanks of fuel blended with ethanol may have none, said Rich Lewis, director of fuel and measures for the Georgia Department of Agriculture, to the Albany Herald. “We don’t allow there to be any water in the (ethanol) storage tanks,” he said.

There may be more lockdowns to come because 277 Atlanta-area Shell stations offer the ethanol blend, said Yao Seidu, spokesman for the commissioner’s office. Underground tanks must be emptied and dried out before the ethanol blend is introduced and the pump must be labeled.

[DrewQ45]

Good thing I don't ever buy Shell gas. I wonder which other stations are sneaking it in too?

Thanks for the info Tech.

[96Qowner]

... and the pump must be labeled.

This is the part that scares me. I don't know if we can trust the pump labels.

[maxnix]

Best thing to do is to buy from high volume tier one locations that have replaced their tanks in the last couple of years. New construction is the best.

[StarPD]

Anyone who can drive to outlying areas to fuel up would be well advised to do so. Ethanol is not only harmful if water contaminates it, power and economy drop by as much as 10%.

We have "oxygenated" (ethanol in summer, MTBE (ether) in winter, or the reverse, I forget which, here in Phoenix year round. I hate it. Whenever I leave the area, I try to fill up with what I call "REAL" gasoline. The difference is noticeable.

I strongly urge Atlanta area Infiniti owners to try to avoid ethanol blends whenever possible. Be advised however, that's only a stop-gap measure. History has proven that the ethanol mandate spreads, and gets worse, just like it did in Kalifornia and here in Phoenix. Soon it will be all year ethanol/MTBE there in the Atlanta area and outlying areas will be included in the change. There is no practical solution other than seeking unadulterated gas outside of that area., which will grow ever larger.

[96Qowner]

Ethanol reacts with the potting compound in the Q45 injectors. It swells and pulls the windings apart, radically altering resistance and causing the injector to fail. Texasoil soaked a few used ones in ethanol blend and watched what happened to 'em - tested 'em - resistance went sky high after a couple days.

You can't run ethanol in a G50.

[Q451990]

That's only one state away... not good!

Heath

[StarPD]

Ethanol reacts with the potting compound in the Q45 injectors. It swells and pulls the windings apart, radically altering resistance and causing the injector to fail. Texasoil soaked a few used ones in ethanol blend and watched what happened to 'em - tested 'em - resistance went sky high after a couple days.

You can't run ethanol in a G50.

Bad news. We have no choice here in Phoenix.

How about 2005 F50? Are the injectors in newer VK45s updated to tolerate the ethanol blends that are fast becoming the only fuel available in many areas?

Interesting story:My '94 Q45t had one injector after another go out, two in warranty and two after. The car was well out of warranty with the last bad injector. I called Infiniti Customer Service and pitched a fit, telling them that our other cheap family car had NO injectors fail after 70,000 miles, and that I had friends with cheap cars that didn't need ANY injectors even at 100 and 150k, that I expected better from my $58k luxury car. They told me that there are new updated injectors designed to cope with ethanol that wouldn't poop out on me, and that I probably already had at least 3 of them from the previous replacements. I stuck to my guns and demanded a full set of all 8 new injectors. They finally agreed to replace all 8 if I paid for labor, which I did. After that, I never had an injector problem. I'm wondering if the G50/VH45 updated injectors were in fact designed to tolerate ethanol blends. I traded it with around 40k miles on the new injectors, and they were fine after all those miles.

Comments on both situations?

[StarPD]

That's only one state away... not good!

Heath

Coming soon to your State, no matter where it is. I hope Infiniti's latest injectors are designed to cope with ethanol blends. Otherwise they're going to have a lot of angry customers, and a bad image.

Last I knew, it cost around $600 to replace ONE injector on G50s. Repeating that for all 8, then again indefinitely is not going to endear Infiniti to its customers.

[ScottJackson]

It's cheapest to replace them all when you have the plenum removed. I would highly recommend that if you're paying for someone to pull the plenum. There's Venom injectors cheap on ebay, but I'm finding out (thanks to a tip from someone here on this forum) that they're garbage. However, Lucas makes good injectors for a good price that fit the G50. I think a set of 8 can be had for $500 or less. Here in Iowa, we have ethanol, but we can also opt for low octane regular without ethanol and premium without ethanol. I usually run a mix of those two. I should run straight premium, but I'm poor and don't see a performance decrease with a mix (it is a bit sluggish on straight 87, thanks to knock sensors retarding the timing because I was the retard that put too much of that stuff in the tank). For only 20cents more per gallon than premium pump fuel, I can get 100LL from the airport now. Of course, it's not friendly to catalytic converters, but it does make it tempting to just build a really high compression hot rod. Oh yes, and I would NEVER put it in a car I drive on public highways *that's my disclaimer*

[Jesda]

T3 will be busy!

[Q45denver]

As has been posted many times in the past, the cheap aftermarket injectors are just used injectors that have been cleaned up. No reason to pay $500 for a set of 8 when you can get a set of used for $150 and have Deuschwerks clean and test them for another $100.

Denver, CO has required ethanol for at least the last ten years and I have gone through several sets in my 1990 but have yet to experience any problems in either of my 1995 Q's. Maybe there was an update to the 1995 injectors to cope with ethanol since it whould have been a known problem by then. However I am unaware of any updates to the Series one injectors and the last set I bought new from Scottsdale failed within 10,000 miles.

I think Q45Tech stated that it was the water in the fuel and not the ethanol itself that caused the problem and that a dose of Heet in each tank would alleviate the problem.

[gjh20]

this i just wonderful!!!!! so in addition to the sprawled out traffic, all the new construction killing my low profile tires, having to drive at 90mph on 285 just to keep up (which i really don't mind ), & an engine mis-firing that's an absolute monster to trace & already screwing up my gas mileage, now i have to wonder if my WAY OVERPRICED gas is really even gas! i hope QuikTrip stays loyal!

[ScottJackson]

so Infiniti is the ONLY manufacturer of new injectors? I coulda swore Lucas/RC injectors were labelled as being new.

[szh]

a dose of Heet in each tank would alleviate the problem.

Please use ISOHEET, not the plain HEET ... isopropyl alcohol based products are safer.

Z

[StarPD]

Please use ISOHEET, not the plain HEET ... isopropyl alcohol based products are safer.

Z

Wait a minute.Ethanol in the gasoline makes the gas absorb water, which along with the ethanol itself, damages the fuel system. So adding MORE alcohol cures the problem?

What's wrong with this picture?I'm missing something here.

[bone_stock_240]

I am guessing it is because it is a different type of alcohol that it is ok. Isopropyl as opposed to Ethyl

[96Qowner]

Here's the thread with texasoil's comments:

zerothread?id=215772

The real issue is WHY are the windings failing? I suspect the ETHANOL in gasoline today is attacking the potting compound of the injector body, causing it to swell and pull the wires in two internally.That's the 'post mortem' I did on 3 'original' ones off my '94--all wentprogressively HI ohms in 3 months of ethanol in gas. The other 5 had been replaced by P.O. just B4 I bought it 4 yrs/50K miles ago and have different potting compound.

Re: swelling and resistance: I took a 20 ohm original injector (not too bad but out of tolerance and not going back in), and put it in a jar of 20% ethanol in gasoline. In one day it went from 20 to >2K, and in 2 days went to infinity (open) Q.E.D. as they used to put in my Calculus books-the proof is complete. I do not know if later potting compounds are similarly damaged by ethanol--I suspect not since MTBE was in wide use by mid 90's. I did not see any fuel line deterioration though-would not expect it. Other plastic parts? case-by-case. fuel pump?looks like nylon or delrin--not likely to be affected.

[StarPD]

Back to my original questions:

1. Are later G50 injectors updated to cope with oxygenated Ethanol AND MTBE (ether) fuel?

2. What about F50/VK45 injectors?

Does anyone know the answers?

[96Qowner]

No definitive answer, StarPD, but it's my understanding that it's only the VH45DE injectors that are affected. And texasoil basically said that the latest series for the G50 are robust:

That's the 'post mortem' I did on 3 'original' ones off my '94--all went progressively HI ohms in 3 months of ethanol in gas. The other 5 had been replaced by P.O. just B4 I bought it 4 yrs/50K miles ago and have different potting compound.

And I don't recall reading posts from Y33 and F50 owners about failing injectors. I think it's specific to the G50.

[szh]

Wait a minute.Ethanol in the gasoline makes the gas absorb water, which along with the ethanol itself, damages the fuel system. So adding MORE alcohol cures the problem?

What's wrong with this picture?I'm missing something here.

ISOHEET uses isopropyl alcohol, not ethanol. Much safer for the car!

Z

[szh]

I am guessing it is because it is a different type of alcohol that it is ok. Isopropyl as opposed to Ethyl

Exactly right!

Z