ethanol in georgia

[greg_atlanta]

"contains up to 10% ethanol"

Saw this today on a pump at a Chevron on Buford Hwy 1 block north of Clairmont.... didn't notice until AFTER I filled up, of course.

Does this mean ethanol has arrived, or is the sticker on the pump just a precautionary measure?

I've already got a stash of isoheat, will buy more!

[Q451990]

Found the same sticker on a pump at a 76 station in Columbia yesterday. Luckily, I noticed it before I filled up and left. I too wonder if it's a generic sticker that's going on all of their pumps, or if the dreaded corngas is here now too.

Heath

[qship96]

In Maryland we have had only ethanol blends for 2-3 years now,with MTBE before that.....So far I have not had any issues with using either blend, now at almost 209,000 miles on Q.

Never heard of any friends/co-workers/neighbors having issues either, or dealer or independant shop technicians seeing an increase in fuel system problems.

[96Qowner]

And texasoil put a Q45 injector into ethanol and watched it swell and break the windings in a matter of a day or two.

The real issue is WHY are the windings failing? I suspect the ETHANOL in gasoline today is attacking the potting compound of the injector body, causing it to swell and pull the wires in two internally.That's the 'post mortem' I did on 3 'original' ones off my '94--all wentprogressively HI ohms in 3 months of ethanol in gas. The other 5 had been replaced by P.O. just B4 I bought it 4 yrs/50K miles ago and have different potting compound.

And this:

Re: swelling and resistance: I took a 20 ohm original injector (not too bad but out of tolerance and not going back in), and put it in a jar of 20% ethanol in gasoline. In one day it went from 20 to >2K, and in 2 days went to infinity (open) Q.E.D. as they used to put in my Calculus books-the proof is complete. I do not know if later potting compounds are similarly damaged by ethanol--I suspect not since MTBE was in wide use by mid 90's. I did not see any fuel line deterioration though-would not expect it. Other plastic parts? case-by-case. fuel pump?looks like nylon or delrin--not likely to be affected.

zerothread?id=215772

Dunno. I haven't heard of 96s having injector troubles, though.

[qship96]

And texasoil put a Q45 injector into ethanol and watched it swell and break the windings in a matter of a day or two.

The real issue is WHY are the windings failing? I suspect the ETHANOL in gasoline today is attacking the potting compound of the injector body, causing it to swell and pull the wires in two internally.That's the 'post mortem' I did on 3 'original' ones off my '94--all wentprogressively HI ohms in 3 months of ethanol in gas. The other 5 had been replaced by P.O. just B4 I bought it 4 yrs/50K miles ago and have different potting compound.

And this:

Re: swelling and resistance: I took a 20 ohm original injector (not too bad but out of tolerance and not going back in), and put it in a jar of 20% ethanol in gasoline. In one day it went from 20 to >2K, and in 2 days went to infinity (open) Q.E.D. as they used to put in my Calculus books-the proof is complete. I do not know if later potting compounds are similarly damaged by ethanol--I suspect not since MTBE was in wide use by mid 90's. I did not see any fuel line deterioration though-would not expect it. Other plastic parts? case-by-case. fuel pump?looks like nylon or delrin--not likely to be affected.

zerothread?id=215772

Dunno. I haven't heard of 96s having injector troubles, though.

All the above "tests" are irrelevent, as in the first test pure ethanol was used, and in the second test you mentioned, 20% ethanol mixture was used. The ethanol content in the fuel we are so afraid of is 10% MAXIMUM by law {which Infiniti says is OK to use as per my owners manual}

[Q451990]

I thought that we had pretty much established that ethanol was bad for the Q's injectors... at least the early years.

Heath

[oldmako]

We've had it in Virginia for quite a while. The BIGGEST problem with this fuel is that it has a very short shelf life. If you fuel it and let the fuel sit you will have problems eventually.

With cars it's not nearly an issue unless you travel a lot (I do) and let your car sit without running. With boats, chainsaws, lawnmowers etc it's HUGE. The fuel literally separates and cannot be remixed. Also, I have "heard" from an outboard mech that the fuel has butane (I think) added to jack the octane. The problem is that it gasses off quickly and the octane drops. Boat mechs love / hate ethanol depending on their time and load.

I add (Yes, I do.....shock of shocks...) Lucas to my gas because it showed a significant improvement in fuel econ on my last car. Also because they claim that it slows the fuel from separating. I began using it in my boat, and tried it in the car. It may be snake oil, but my mileage went up 2 MPG after I started using it.
Modified by oldmako at 4:07 PM 2/6/2008

[Q45tech]

What's worse is no consistentancy just the authority to blend in up to 10% ethanol at terminals as the ethanol is available................make mine plain no cream please and surely no sugar or water.

[oldmako]

It would be nice to know which refiners consistently use it and to what concentration. In other words, one could regularly purchase the best (least contaminated) gas available. I run WAWA gas in my boat for a variety of reasons, but I steer clear of it for the Q.

[maxnix]

It should be noted tha TexasOil's experiment was performed using an early (1990 - 1993) single pintle design injector.

[qship96]

I wonder if the under-plenum heat contributes to the injector developing fine cracks {like the knock sensors} and allowing the fuel to deteriorate the injector windings?

[Q45tech]

Refiners have little to do with ethanol blending other than they can further skimp on base octane [make a special cheaper substandard regular for blending only].................these substandard regulars are often 84-85 octane and require ethanol to reach 86.501 to become 87.

You can take regular REGULAR at 87 and add 10% Ethanol and call it Premium not 93 but 91 or 92 [91.501].

Ethanol must be added at local tank farm since it cannot go thru pipelines so the local tank farm is who you must trust or distrust.

All of ATL Metro is served by 2 tank farms both of which have railroad spurs to deliver the ethanol and secret branding sauce [marketeers secret additives---------food coloring].

[Q451990]

I checked a Hess station and found a similar Ethanol warning. Drove through an Exxon and BP/Amoco station and no stickers. So... is the warning label mandated by the feds or state agencies? Can we be relatively confident that we're buying real gas at any station that doesn't display the label?

Heath

[Q451990]

Here's a web site that tells about pump labeling requirements by state. Who knows how well these regulations are enforced.

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/policy/actions/state/

[StarPD]

The only gas we can get in Phoenix is 10% ethanol blend. For a while, it was 10% ethanol in summer and 15% MTBE (ether) in winter. Now it's ethanol all year long.

My '94 Q45t went through 5 injectors, one at a time. The first 3 were replaced under warranty. I paid for the 4th. When the fifth went out, I called Infiniti and whined something fierce, told them a $58,000 luxury car should not need an injector every 10,000 miles. The lady finally gave in and agreed to replace the 5th one as a "customer accommodation". She admitted that Infiniti was having trouble with them and had "updated" them, and that I shouldn't have any problems with the new one. I insisted on all 8 injectors being replaced with the "new updated" ones. She finally agreed to furnish the new injectors if I'd pay the labor. I agreed and all 8 were replaced by the dealer. I never had another problem.

[AlabamaDan]

Quote »"contains up to 10% ethanol"[/quote]Found the same thing at pumps yesterday. Drove around till we found one that didn't have the sign. Looks like bad times are coming for gas quality.

[StarPD]

Found the same thing at pumps yesterday. Drove around till we found one that didn't have the sign. Looks like bad times are coming for gas quality.

Yup, before long, it will be everywhere.There won't be any choice.Doncha just love how government "looks out for us"?

[Q45tech]

There is always a choice:Remove the ethanol from the gasoline you buy or blend your own or buy racing fuels.

There will be no cheap choice.

I'll bet for a while there will be a few specialty stations with non ethanolized fuels.

Unfortunately gasoline is not stabil enough to keep for more than a month or two max, so don't go buying a 1,000 gasolines to keep and use.

Oregon explains in detail:http://www.soyatech.com/news_story.php?id=6417

Alcohol test kits $25:http://www.fuel-testers.com/pr....html

Warning E10 is prohibited in small private planes. heliocopters, and anything that flys.

[qship96]

When it gets to the point that members search out airports to fuel the Q on a on-going {every fillup} basis, or even toy with the headache of self creating custom fuel blends to avoid ethanol....it is past time to get rid of the car for a newer vehicle that you can enjoy as intended....gas and go

Get serious, As much as I enjoy my Q, these are old daily drivers, not a vintage pebble beach find that is a garage queen, rarely driven and purchased with the intention it will be a good investment down the road

[Q451990]

Fuel shouldn't change so much that it makes cars on the road obsolete. But that's the case - the freaking greenies want us all in excrementboxes and there's nothing to stop them - at least after November. This country is going to hell, and it's taking my Q with it.

So what are some practical things that can be done to deal with corngas? Isoheat every tank? More frequent BG44K? Newer style injectors? Pull the fuel pump fuse at the end of each day (or install a kill switch) so they're not sitting in crap fuel overnight?

Heath

[Denver90Q]

No problems so far with in either of my 1995's. Don't even use BG44K. Ethanol has been in gas here at least past 10 years and makes my 1990 almost undrivable. I am in process of installing 1995 fuel rails in the 1990 which appears to be the only permanent and/or practical solution.

[Q45tech]

"Fuel shouldn't change so much that it makes cars on the road obsolete."

WHY NOT can you think of an easier HIDDEN METHOD for the uneducated public. CA and other states even buy back gross polluters to crush, US Tax credits to donate to charity and crush....................so China can be supplied with scrape iron.

Nissan pointed this out to CA CAFE Board in 1994 and were told to mind their own business and not worry about what happened after warranty.

The secret agenda is 15 years old just becoming known to a few outside industry, now.

[Haitian_King]

It would be nice to know which refiners consistently use it and to what concentration. In other words, one could regularly purchase the best (least contaminated) gas available. I run WAWA gas in my boat for a variety of reasons, but I steer clear of it for the Q.

Really? I run Wawa gas in my Q out here. Nothing less than 92. I haven't had any fuel issues.

[Q451990]

So Dennis, what will you do when ethanol becomes standard in ATL? I guess my rant distraced from the real quesion, which is - what practical measures can be used to deal with ethanol?

So far we have replace fuel rails and injector with the 94+ style injectors. I suspect this is the ultimate answer - but I would like to know what can be done to delay the day that it's necessary to pull the plenum and change everything out...

Heath

[Q45tech]

Don't have a clue until 6 months after ethanol is mandatory.I have measured my oem injectors every 3 months for the past 7 years so maybe I'll have to go to every 30 days, then every week.

I have 7 new old injectors I've accumulated over the past 9 years [kind of like investing in gold, my average price was under $48 each....ebay.

Finding enough 94-96 rails with decent injectors may be hard as we don't even have one 94-95 junker in stock.

[AlabamaDan]

There was a change in the 94 years. The early 94 models, manuafactured in 93 and early 94 and those afterward. Do all the 94s have the preferred fuel rails and injectors?

[mxr662]

4 new injectors were recently installed. Tried to put the 4 older ones in the easiest position to replace. I'll probably follow Q45tech's lead and try to get 4 more new injectors cheap. The gas out here seems low quality.

[jmorasch]

Here's a web site that tells about pump labeling requirements by state. Who knows how well these regulations are enforced.

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/policy/actions/state/

THANKS FOR THE LINK....IM IN KANSAS AND WORK IN MISSOURI AND IF IM READING THE LINK RIGHT THOSE TWO STATES ARENT REQUIRED TO PUT STICKERS ON THE PUMP??? I WAS DISCUSSING THIS WITH ANOTHER AT WORK AND SUGGESTED THAT SOME ISO HEET WAS GOOD FOR EVERY TANK???

[Q451990]

I'm glad the link helped. I don't know if the isoheet helps or not... probably with the water absorbancy but I'm not sure if it will help with the injector problems.

Heath