Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages...

[atlanta_shooter]

A very scientific link which might give the "3k mile Mobil 1 oil changers" pause for thought. Actually, I am pretty sure most will cling to their habits based on myth...not fact. Oh well, waste of money and resources. FYI anyway:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/....html

[elwesso]

Definintely a good read, thanks for posting it.

however with my limited knowledge of oil and stuff, i have a couple comments

1. Look at the graph below, if you notice around 4000-4500 the oil starts to fall off its "as new" line. Notice they were doing 1000 miles AT LEAST every month and sometimes they were doing 2000 miles a month... That certainly extends the life of the oil to a certain degree... Anyway, where the graph deviates from the base line (around 4500 miles) is where I want to change mine... This is where stuff noticeably starts to break down!!!

Also this is where you see the TBN drastically fall, and then it levels off.



2. Notice the number of mlies on the car. They started out with approx 9k on the car... None of our Q have that many miles, and as we all know as the engine gets older the more blowby that occurs. Plus, they will have no idea how long this engine will last... If they did a side by side comparison using excactly the same principles (really impossible) and the 18k one lasted as long as changing it every 4k, then yes id be a believer. However id put a body part on that this is not even close to the case!

I recall this being posted a while back but i didnt read it once through like I did this time....

I learned from this that it is perfectly safe to run M1 for 4500 or so (+- 500) and still be VERY safe...

I wished they had taken a picture of the oil to see how it looked, my oil at about 2500 miles is starting to look kinda dark..

[elwesso]

Also i think your title is wrong... Wear dosent decrease as oil age increases (otherwise people would never change their oil and itd last forever)... The mileage on their engine was very low and still "breaking in".. The wearing process hadnt stabilized like it does from medium to high miles (say 40k till the end)

Im interested to see how their amsoil test went! And also how the inside of the engine looks

[atlanta_shooter]

Wes, I just used that title, (even thought there is some truth to it if you read the entire study) to get people to check out the link. I knew this would be controversial, but as you see, this was a fairly exhaustive, albeit not perfect study.

In reference to the "color" of the oil at certain mileages, I understand where you are coming from, but the color, i.e. black or dark brown is not a reliable indicator of an oil's condition.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for your opinions...I read your posts all of the time. There are many people that just won't accept the law of "diminshing returns"...The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved.

[911/Q45]

I think people like to chase oil, filter and additive minutia because it is easy to apply to the car. They are reluctant to do well documented improvements such as plenum hoses, O2 sensors, etc. because they are more mechanically challenging.

[nuQ]

know one has really answered this for me,,,,,if after doing an oil change with mobil 1 and mobil1 filter, and very few miles are put on the engine,,,,does the 3 months or 3000 mile change interval still apply?????

does an oil deteriorate by just sitting in the engine, unused???? as many of you here know, i really don't drive the Q that much, maybe 2-3 times a week at the most (but they are usually shorter trips).

[DominickJ30]

know one has really answered this for me,,,,,if after doing an oil change with mobil 1 and mobil1 filter, and very few miles are put on the engine,,,,does the 3 months or 3000 mile change interval still apply?????

does an oil deteriorate by just sitting in the engine, unused???? as many of you here know, i really don't drive the Q that much, maybe 2-3 times a week at the most (but they are usually shorter trips).

If you dont go by milage then you should change the oil about every 3 months(if you dont reach 3k before then)

[elwesso]

Wes, I just used that title, (even thought there is some truth to it if you read the entire study) to get people to check out the link. I knew this would be controversial, but as you see, this was a fairly exhaustive, albeit not perfect study.

In reference to the "color" of the oil at certain mileages, I understand where you are coming from, but the color, i.e. black or dark brown is not a reliable indicator of an oil's condition.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for your opinions...I read your posts all of the time. There are many people that just won't accept the law of "diminshing returns"...The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved.

I understand.... I think however, they did it as scientific as you could possibly do on a car that was driven on a road.... I agree with what you said.... And yes, color really isnt that indicative of its condition, but its certainly not reassuring when you pull that dipstick and see dark stuff on there.... And my engine is even considered to be "clean"... I remember with my old Q it would make the oil dark only after 1000 miles, and we all know how that turned out!!!

I think people like to chase oil, filter and additive minutia because it is easy to apply to the car. They are reluctant to do well documented improvements such as plenum hoses, O2 sensors, etc. because they are more mechanically challenging.

Indeed... Honestly I dont think this is a big deal.. Change the oil every every 3-4k (4500 tops) and just be done with it.... *ding*.... next!!

know one has really answered this for me,,,,,if after doing an oil change with mobil 1 and mobil1 filter, and very few miles are put on the engine,,,,does the 3 months or 3000 mile change interval still apply?????

does an oil deteriorate by just sitting in the engine, unused???? as many of you here know, i really don't drive the Q that much, maybe 2-3 times a week at the most (but they are usually shorter trips).

yes the oil does sort of deteriorate to a degree, however I think that it is proabbly more stable.... Personally, id change the oil whenever I felt like it, and make sure i didnt go more than 6 months on a fill.... I certainly wouldnt want any of "last years oil" in my engine!

Jeff I really hope you let your Q warm up fully (DRIVING for about 10 miles) before you start redlining it and stuff... I talked to Fred a while back ago and he said he can monitor his oil pressure on the Z.... even when the coolant is up to temp, the oil still has higher than normal pressure (meaning the oil is not warmed up enough yet).... If its not fully warmed up that can be bad times....

[squeefoo]

Once the TBN crosses over to TAN you don't want it in your engine if there are aluminum parts in it (all). AL is a natural alkaline (trivalent positive ion) and doesn't like acids. Besides -the additive packages are cheaper in quality to keep prices low, once it's used up it's gone. TexasOil wrote about this last summer sometime. No if you want to look it up look it up no spoonfeeding links from me.

EDIT: A friend who did analysis (PHD Petrochemistry) for many years told me average crossover is 3800 MI across the board (Service engines)

[Q-less]

I enjoyed this, its new, and fresh...topics have been stale as of late.

"This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources."

Makes me want to read your 33 other posts.....no really.

[Q45tech]

Oil in a sealed can doesn't change much, but once exposed to heat once and oxygen continuously it degrades by itself........just sitting in the pan absorbing humidity that hopefully gets boiled off but the damage is done and downhill from there..........thus the 90 day recommendation.

Just like tires, once reheated once after the manufacturing vulcanization and then exposed to oxygen in air during cool down........

[nuQ]

thanks, that explains alot!!!!jeff

[texasoil]

Well lets do some simple economic analysis. A good used engine install is gonna cost around $4K minimum. If you run the oil 6 K miles instead of 3 K , over 150K miles that means you 'save' the cost of 25 oil changes. If you use real expensive stuff @$4/qt, say $45/change at a DIFY place. So $45x25 changes is $1125, or $0.0075 per mile. With fuel costing well over $0.10 per mile, oil changes appear to be a trivial (negligeable) cost of ownership/operation. Tires are 1-2 cents/mile. Insurance is 5-10 cents/mile. Me I think oil is so cheap it simply is not a good bet to go longer than absolutely longest engine life intervals. I have seen a lot of varnished up 100K Q45's --engines full of light amber laquer caused by poor gasoline quality and too infrequent oil changes.

[maxnix]

Yep, with near $50 fill-ups, $50 oil changes every ten tanks are trivial. Time to stock-up on M1 or whatever your favorite brew is.

[Q45tech]

Most ring wear [200k-300k] is from particles too small to be filtered by oil or air filter............thus the need to change the oil to drain them out.

US engines [Chevy V8] are not designed to last........thus the 150k rebuilds or smoke.

1/2 a quart per 1,000 miles [wow] tells you about the ring / bore tolerances, something that is not seen on a well oil changed Q [90-96] till beyond 150k. My 280k Q is now using maybe 1 quart in 3,000 miles with conventional Valvoline 10w30......mostly from [lighter fraction] evaporation as with Mobil 1 the losses are half that.

The following is about diesels with 11 gallon [44 quart] oil capacity and 24,000 mile replacement intervals. 1000 miles per quart replenishment rate.........not sure if they add a quart per day?

Based on sump capacity that would translate to 44/6=7.33........ 24000/7.33 = 3,200 miles for 6 quarts. Obviously diesels are dirtier than gasoline but they want 500,000 mile life.

http://www.machinerylubricatio...erGen

[maxnix]

The last two summary paragraphs of that link needs to be posted for those who may not follow the link:

An Oil Sump is Like a Toilet: You Have to Flush It

Considering all the factors, the OEM recommended oil drain interval, combined with high quality engine oil provides the best insurance of engine durability. Unlike gear cases which are enclosed, the engine is continuously producing blow-by which carries soot, corrosive acids, condensation (water), unburned fuel, dirt, coolant and wear metal to the oil. So the appropriate oil drain interval is critical to engine life and trouble-free operation. Rigorous maintenance practice in changing fluids, as exemplified by the aircraft industry, provides safe and trouble-free operations.

Considering all the potential for reduced engine durability, caution must always be applied in selecting a drain interval other than that recommended by the OEM, even with a high quality engine oil.

[atlanta_shooter]

Diminshing Returns:

The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved.

Very few facts here....just conjecture, etc....and that's o.k. BTW, how many of you actually read the article? Did you find anything of interest?

Does this mean the "new" 15,000 mile Mobil 1 is good for 5,000 miles? If I am using dino, should I change it every 1,000 miles or every month?

Just kidding guys....man this oil thing sure gets peeps riled up....

[qship96]

unless you want to stick with the factory recommendations,the only way to tell the condition of the oil IN YOUR ENGINE,with your driving habits,is to pay for oil analysis-in my engine,I extend the drain intervals to 5-6000 miles using only Mobil 1 or Redline oils based on these tests of my particular engine and driving patterns-some may get more or less miles per change depending on their engine/driving patterns,or their tolerance for better/worse test results-I like to change the oil BEFORE it shows significant wear metals or accumulation of dirt,blowby,or depleted additives and TBN.