Engine oil additives.

[RetiredTexans]

Does anyone have knowledge of oil companies removing additives from engine oil? I am about to start researching this topic after discovering some oil companies removed additives from their gasoline "with the approval" of the Feds resulting in tiered gasolines. This was sanctioned under revised gas formula rules to calculate octane rating.

A neighbor told me a knowledgeable friend of his working in the industry explained that a problem occurring in his 10 year old GMC was most likely due to removal of certain additives. He was also told the oil companies suppressed this information due to whatever was taken out as a cost cutting step.

[BBISHOPPCM]

Are we talking about additives in gasoline, oil, or both?

[Great White Versa]

Why would anyone REMOVE an 'additive'? Do you mean that they no longer include certain additives? Or do you mean that they filter out certain beneficial chemicals that used to be left in?

[RetiredTexans]

Just oil additives. My concern is to either verify the information or refute it. If I discover the info is true, I will stop using any products that will probably cause harm to my V or any other vehicle I own.

The information I received from the neighbor was additives were/are being removed to lower the products manufacturing costs. So far I have only found lists of compounds typically added to oil and their purpose (detergency, slipperyness, metal-to-metal contact reduction for example). Nothing has emerged on reducing or eliminating any of them from the oil formulation.

I was able to find the basis for reducing and eliminating certain gasoline additives in governmental documents.

[Rockhound]

I'd say just stick with Mobil 1 full synthetic, and you'd have nothing to worry about.

I dunno, the whole story sounds a bit fishy to me. Detergents are found in all sorts of engine oils, even the cheap stuff, and I can't imagine that there is anything special about a 10 year old GMC engine in that it would be so picky to oil types, as long as the proper viscosity was used.

Perhaps some bargain oils are being reformulated (sans some detergents) in order to save costs. As long as you buy a reputable brand (Mobil 1, for instance) then I don't think there's much to worry about.

I wouldn't necessarily call this a 'myth' - but we all know how many myths there are regarding engine oil.

[NY.AD.MAN]

I wouldn't consider this implausible at all!

Consider this, Oil Companies have more than DOUBLED their profits:

Here are some of the factors:

- Raw Oil went up by 50-60% over cost they were paying before- Gas prices went up 150-220% OVERNIGHT- Cost of refinement went up b/c of natural disasters (Katrina, etc.) - Decreased demand for gas (more cars going hybrid/smaller cars/more fuel efficient) - Increase in minimum wage

Where is the extra little bit of building profit being accrued? The only place would be a decrease in employment OR lowering of standards for the gas to the bare minimum.

The Oil companies are GREEDY and we're paying for it.

[Rockhound]

I wouldn't consider this implausible at all!

Consider this, Oil Companies have more than DOUBLED their profits:

Here are some of the factors:

- Raw Oil went up by 50-60% over cost they were paying before- Gas prices went up 150-220% OVERNIGHT- Cost of refinement went up b/c of natural disasters (Katrina, etc.) - Decreased demand for gas (more cars going hybrid/smaller cars/more fuel efficient) - Increase in minimum wage

Where is the extra little bit of building profit being accrued? The only place would be a decrease in employment OR lowering of standards for the gas to the bare minimum.

The Oil companies are GREEDY and we're paying for it.

[RANT]

Oh boy. Yet another person who doesn't really know what they're talking about. I'm a Geologist for an oil company - and it's clear that most Americans have very little idea about the process of looking for and extracting oil, let alone why the price fluctuates as it does.

The average anti-"big oil" American doesn't understand is that these "record" profits are highly beneficial to BOTH the future of the oil and gas industry and to us as consumers.

1) Commodities such as oil and gas fluctuate in price because they are bought and sold as FUTURES. This is a SPECULATIVE investment. Buyers are litereally guessing how ecological, political, and social variables will effect the actual price and availability of the oil coming out of the ground and leaving the countries of origin 3-6 months from now. Oil speculators (commodities investors) will drive the price up on word of unrest, tax increases, oil-field fires, weather events, just about anything that might make it harder or more expensive to get the oil to the refinery.

2) Decreased demand for gas? Where have you been? Last time I checked, the demand for gasoline has only increased. You think the minor blip on the radar that is hybrid sales has actually decreased demand? Where do you come up with this stuff? Also, recall that countries such as China and Russia have a burgeoning middle class that is now buying things they didn't have before (read: cars).

3) "Record" profits. This one always cracks me up. If PepsiCo or Nike have "record" profits, no one cares. If Nissan has record profits, no one complains. When an oil company is profitable, it brings out all the clueless naysayers and conspiracy theorists.

4) I'd recommend that you read up on the oil industry and learn how the whole process works.

As a geologist, I and the company I work for have to work within the commodity price of oil and natural gas. What this means is that if I find a possible reservoir that becomes a drilling target, I then have to give a reservoir engineer all the pertinent information so he can then run the numbers and determine if that particular volume of oil or gas can be drilled to and extracted economically.

When oil was $10/barrel, this meant that MANY potential oil reservoirs here in the US were passed up because the volume of oil expected was not sufficient to be extracted economically. Oil companies are out to make money just as ANY OTHER COMPANY. If they don't make money - we don't get oil.

For instance, if I come up with a prospect at work, but I estimate the EUR (estimated ultimate recovery) for a well at, say, 1 BCF (billion cubic feet of natural gas) - that well probably won't be drilled, even with gas prices @ $7/MCF. Why? Because the reservoir in question may be rather deep, and drilling/completion costs alone could easily exceed $3 M. Add in operating/maintenance costs, and suddenly the profit margin gets so slim that we're afraid to drill the well. We're not going to extract hydrocarbons for a loss - we wouldn't last very long if we did that.

Escalating costs help drive 'unconventional' resource development, like the Athabasca Tar Sands in Alberta, Canada. The processing of this oil is time consuming, and most of all, expensive. But at $90+/bbl, companies can actually afford such plays. Gas shales are another example of a hydrocarbon source that has only become profitable in the last few years. Everyone's happy with oil @ $10/bbl - but at those prices, no one can afford to develop these 'unconventional' reservoirs...which are becoming dominant since many 'conventional' reservoirs, especially in the US, are just about played out.

So it's a catch 22. You want hydrocarbons? Do YOU know how to explore for them or extract them? Do you want the companies who know what they're doing to keep at it, especially those still targeting prospects here in the US? Then you need them to remain profitable. End of story.

[/RANT]

[NY.AD.MAN]

Future investment and "surplus" is, indeed, a strong and necessary precaution that most companies need to make. HOWEVER, there are some limitations that must be placed upon certain industries! It would be ignorant for me to say that the "big bad oil companies" are coming out for all of us, BUT it would not be off for me to say that, perhaps, the amount necessary to keep an oil giant going is NOT at the current rate...

Once again, let me explain myself.

There are thousands of factors that go into making important decisions about pricing, corporate investment and consumerism, but for our purposes, let's chat about 3 factors in particular:

1. Overhead costs / Future expenditures (the costs of running business) 2. Economic trends (How the market responds)3. Overriding necessity (Factors that will cancel out standard procedure)

1. There are ALWAYS operating costs for ANY business, but certain businesses (like the oil companies) have special needs and extraneous costs that exaggerate profits and net gains. Unfortunately, this includes political lobbying and overreaching entertaining foreign powers. There are records of hundreds of thousands of dollars going to single individuals (and not just one or two individuals) as "bonuses" or "commission" for certain services when their salary pay is already above $100K. That money, if recirculated through overhead costs, could eliminate several million dollars in transportation, refinement, and legal fees that are due to environmental degradation and questionable business practices.

There are other costs, such as R&D and alternative fuel sources, but with the current technology, there have already been alternative sources of energy that can be refined and researched to the point of actually becoming valid. However, these sources are considered to be "counterproductive" for many oil companies, and as such, disregarded or underfunded.

Let's not even mention that through lobbying and "other" less savory methods of convincing, that many automotive companies have been able to slack on the regulations for emissions and fuel efficiency. There are recorded incidences of engines being tested that can get 100mpg or better at 1.3-2.0 liters! In Europe, car manufacturers are restrained to making cars that get at LEAST 40 mpg IN THE CITY. So why is it then that we all get excited about 33mpg?

Back to the point at hand, excessive bonuses and questionable stock options also lead me to ask another question: Why aren't the employees of these oil companies getting full benefits? The business model also allows for a greater "preparative proportion of net revenue to previous annual net revenue". In Laman's terms, the oil companies are allowed several BILLION dollars more reserve than food, water, electrical and natural preservation COMBINED!

Why?

Well, the argument is that the reserves are in danger. Anyone remember the 1970's and waiting in line for miles JUST to get a TANK of gas? Oh wait, we had a scare then, and 30+ years later (after SEVERAL years of being able to keep gas prices BELOW the inflationary rate), we see an increase in gas prices by OVER 200% in many areas! Here in Georgia, it was $0.78 until 2002, at which point it jumped to $1.18 (average). Then, just after fluctuating between 1.30 - 1.70 for a year, we had $3.35 at the most expensive in 2006. Now, the prices hover between $2.95-$3.15 and are forcing the purchase of Japanese cars (good thing for the Versa!) all over the state!

Is this abnormal? Yes. Inflationary rates have caused oil companies several million dollars in profits, but their net gains are still in the BILLIONS BEFORE the hike in prices. So then, what kind of prevention is there that needs this much funding?

Ethanol has been around for 15+ years. Wind Power, Hydro-power, Solar-power and several other forms of power have been underfunded by the same politicians who have vested interest in the oil companies.

Funny enough, there has even been an increase in corporate spending for "other" forms of spending. This form is an undefined amount of spending that can be used for prevention or any other alternative necessities based on industry.

2. The market instability does NOT effect Oil companies. From everything from gasoline for the automotive needs, heating for the home and business to even the simplest mechanical needs for the use of drills and such.

BUT, one thing to remember is that the highest pay raises due to increased profits are for the TOP 10%.

These individuals are ALREADY costing the companies millions and billions of dollars that could be better used to fund new research, improve current technologies, fund drilling and other such resources and to STAY in our pockets!

3. There are few, if any, legitimate reasons for exempting regulations or even changing them altogether, but if the oil problem is in SUCH a BAD place, why have automotive regulations been relaxed over the past few years? Why aren't we seeing cars and trucks that get AT LEAST 25-30mpg? Even the Prius only gets an average of 45 mpg. AT BEST!

If there is SUCH a problem with operating costs, how are there people making Billions of dollars?

Let me explain:

$1 Billion = 1000 x $1 million. That means that you could lower the pay of ONE executive and solve your supposed operating cost worry.

SO,

I have to say that, despite the fact that there may in fact be a problem with your particular job and its operating costs, the amount of money in income should be WELL ABOVE what you need to fix it.

[Rockhound]

I have to say that, despite the fact that there may in fact be a problem with your particular job and its operating costs, the amount of money in income should be WELL ABOVE what you need to fix it.

Let's calm down a minute and look over some points to ponder...

1) There's nothing wrong with my job. This is how all Geologists and oil companies have to operate.

2) Oil companies don't set the price of oil. It is a commodity, and speculative traders influence the price.

3) Historically, the price of gasoline, when adjusted for inflation, is around $3/gallon. The 1990s were the cheapest decade for the price of gasoline, ever, even more so than the boom-days of the 1920s and 1930s. In 1949, gas was around $0.30 a gallon, roughly equivalent to $2.63 today. And, despite what people may think, average wages have increased faster than the price of gasoline.

4) When I mentioned "operating costs" earlier, I was referring to the cost of operating a SINGLE well over its lifetime. Do you have any clue about

a) how we explore for oil and gas?b) how a well is drilled?c) how expensive it is to drill a well?d) how expensive it is to maintain and operate a single well?e) how long it takes to extract a certain volume of oil/gas from a well?f) the process involved in transporting and refining hydrocarbons to produce gasoline?

PepsiCo mixes carbonation, food coloring, and sugar water and sells it for around $6.40/gallon ($1 per 20 oz). Think of how easy this process is. Hydrocarbons must be explored for, found, tapped into (drilled to), extracted, transported, refined, and then transported again, and yet we're going to have a fit over $3/gallon?

Until we pay the exorbitant amounts the UK has been paying for decades, we really don't have much room to complain.

I work for an independent oil company. We do not own our own drilling rigs, we have to hire that out. We don't do our own well completions, we hire that out as well. This is an increasingly common scenario for oil companies here in the US, except for a few of the largest that still operate their own rigs.

What this means is that everyone wants a piece of the pie. Drilling and completion companies know that the oil companies are doing well right now, and have escalated their pricing accordingly.

We evaluate every well proposal according to economics. Every proposed well goes before the CEO et al and the economic potential is dissected according to the time-value of money. Thus, at $10/bbl, far fewer wells were drilled because it was much more difficult to find a reservoir that could provide enough oil to break even or sustain a profit for each well. Now, at today's prices, more wells can be drilled, although escalating regulations, drilling costs, completion costs, and production costs have all tightened the slack that high-dollar oil provides.

There are few, if any, legitimate reasons for exempting regulations or even changing them altogether, but if the oil problem is in SUCH a BAD place, why have automotive regulations been relaxed over the past few years? Why aren't we seeing cars and trucks that get AT LEAST 25-30mpg? Even the Prius only gets an average of 45 mpg. AT BEST!

Your rant about CAFE MPG regulations and such is a non-issue to me. Our company is not in cahoots with the automotive industry. We don't have lobbyists trying to reduce MPG regulations.

...............

Also, about the remaining supply of hydrocarbons...this is a sticky issue. What you don't understand is that no new DOMESTIC oil/gas discoveries had been made for quite some time going into the 1970s. Our last big discoveries had been in the 1950s and those were being depleted 20 years later. Our fuel woes in the 1970s were due to an embargo set up certain countries from which we import oil. Even today, we are GREATLY (if not cripplingly) dependent upon FOREIGN oil.

No significant oil reserves have been discovered in the US for quite some time. The story is different for natural gas, which is still in relative abundance here in the US, especially states like Oklahoma and Texas. Just like outsourcing in just about every other sector, many of the largest US-based oil companies have turned their sights on larger (read: foreign) oil accumulations, due in no small part to all of the regulations faced here in the US.

BUT, these higher oil prices are enabling companies to pursue unconventional resources. You see, just a decade ago, sources of hydrocarbons such as gas shales were mostly ignored because gas shale wells tend to be rather low volume, low rate producers. When natural gas prices were below $1/MCF, no company could profitably pursue such endeavors.

Today, with natural gas NIMEX prices fluctuating around $8/MCF, such hydrocarbon sources can be profitably explored. Also, these unconventional plays require technological advances to improve their production - another reason why the "record" profits are necessary to continue the process, to reinvest that money back into production.

Your argument about big-wig salaries is valid, but unfortunately, that's how the world works, and I think you're too hung up on that.

How long will the world's hydrocarbon reserves last? Who knows. There were "experts" claiming that we'd be running out of oil in the 1940s. New discoveries, however, are being made in increasingly difficult targets - requiring deeper drilling than ever imagined and other technological complications. Certain areas still have abundant reserves of oil (Middle East) and natural gas (US). I'm not talking about reserves in tanks - I'm talking about reserves in the ground. The demand for hydrocarbons will choke the supply long before we "run out", however.

The main problem with the oil industry is our country's insatiable appetite for oil.

[NY.AD.MAN]

Rockhound,

I think you may assume that I don't respect what the workers are doing, or that smaller oil companies are exempt from a lot of what the larger oil companies are doing (negatively speaking), and i admit that my rant was a bit heavy on the executive pay...

BUT,

There are still 3 questions I want answered:

1. With all of the government subsidies and tax breaks, how is it possible that there is still room for great cost at the basic level?

The national government not only covers cost of basic overhead (transportation and refinement rental / assist in purchase of actual refinery which the oil companies actually get a discount from since the trucks use business gas), but also the exuberant cost of "doing business".

Many of the basics are tax deductible and the cost of production is also offset by real estate. Though the company you work for does not actually own much of the means of production, but many others do. That cost should be translated into making more efficient equipment.

2. I understand that there is an insatiable need here in the states, BUT, the Oil companies DO have a say in regulations of MPG. Why is it that there are still no "true" alternatives to oil?

Many years ago, it was proposed that the auto companies (specifically domestic auto makers) should have to adhere to STRICT regulations, which at that time would have cost the oil companies several million dollars since it would have slowly increased the ownership of smaller, European style vehicles and fewer massive pickups and SUVs. It didn't go through , not surprisingly...

The style of vehicle that is still popular today is the Ford F-250, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, Chevy Silverado, etc.! How is this still possible?

I'm no raging hippie or overzealous college student, I'm a business/Advertising major who has actually worked in the industry and I can say that there is plenty of money circulating around for the oil companies who liberally spend 250-500 million dollars a year in advertising alone!

3. What's the deal with the allocation of funds?! Forget about the execs, what about daily business and supply-side economics?

[Rockhound]

1. I am not privy to the tax breaks that you speak of, but it seems that you are referring to breaks offered to downstream operations. The various oil companies that I've worked for have all been upstream companies, i.e. they only drill/operate wells and then sell those produced hydrocarbons to transport/refining companies. I have no experience with refining and do not know about the government incentives in doing so.

how is it possible that there is still room for great cost at the basic level?

Because many, many independent oil companies are upstream only operations, thus no refining-related incentives.

There's certainly no incentives in things like securing land leases, drilling a well, or operating the well. In this part of the country, drilling and completion costs for a ~10,000 ft well can easily exceed $4 million.

2. a. I know some of the major oil companies have lobbyists on capitol hill. Unfortunately you paint with a broad brush in assuming that ALL companies have said influence. They don't. But of course "big oil" doesn't want to see a drastic increase in MPG because that would also mean a potential decrease in demand.

b. I know that companies such as BPAmoco are investing millions of dollars into alternative fuels. Think about it. These companies are intimately aware of what the future holds for them if oil "runs out"...so what is there to do? Well, invest in the fuels of the future, of course. That way the big oil companies could then corner the market in whatever that technology is. Don't be so sure that alternatives won't be developed by the oil companies. They like money, and would like to be able to still make money in the post-oil world.

The style of vehicle that is still popular today is the Ford F-250, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, Chevy Silverado, etc.! How is this still possible?

Classic American greed and ignorance. Trucks and SUVs became the "it" vehicles during the era of $10/bbl oil. At the time, who cared about gas mileage? Well, I did, for one, but most Americans did not. Despite the incessant whining about gasoline prices, many folks are still reluctant to give up their big rigs, because hey, bigger is better, right?

3. I do not have intimate knowledge of my company's allocation of funds. I do know what my boss (manager of geology) is capable of authorizing for expenditures but that's about it. I'm not in accounting.

[RetiredTexans]

I thought my original question at the beginning of this thread was simple enough. I didn't mean to start an endless debate over who is messing with who. That belongs somewhere else, not here. We're talking about preserving the life span of a precious (my wife's) V.

Two notes of interest. 1) I was in Hong Kong in 1970 and the price of gasoline was the equivelent of $1 US per liter, almost all of it Hong Kong taxes to force fewer cars on its roads and in Kowloon (sp). Pull the taxes from European gas to find its true cost and compare to the US. 2) Read The Prize by Daniel Yergin. Published in 1991, it explains the evolution of oil exploation in this country and around the world. The story ends about 1990. He updated it and extended the time period into the late 1990s or early 2000s. A fasinating read. You will see why we are so involved in the middle east.

[NY.AD.MAN]

If you go to Autozone, they have a special mix-in that will keep your oil consistently smoother (like actual synthetic) and higher quality. It will make sure that not only will it protect your engine from future wear and tear, but also keep your engine running cleaner and smoother as well...

Ask them for the oil additive... I know a lot of people put fads on the web, but I can say that, with a good amount of crap out there... However, it kept my 1994 Taurus running when it was poorly taken care of for the 55,000 miles before I owned it (which i didn't know when I purchased it from a FAMILY FRIEND!) i.e. lax on the oil changes, poor maintenance in terms of tune ups, etc... . Unfortunately, Ford's quality was evident around 120,000 miles, but all in all, it kept her purring like a kitten...

[Rockhound]

I thought my original question at the beginning of this thread was simple enough. I didn't mean to start an endless debate over who is messing with who. That belongs somewhere else, not here. We're talking about preserving the life span of a precious (my wife's) V.

Sorry! I just think folks are far too eager to point their finger at the oil industry without knowing the ins and outs. I need to read "The Prize" - my old boss recommended it, but I never got around to it.

If you go to Autozone, they have a special mix-in that will keep your oil consistently smoother (like actual synthetic) and higher quality. It will make sure that not only will it protect your engine from future wear and tear, but also keep your engine running cleaner and smoother as well...

I would highly recommend against any add-in oil "stabilizers" or fluids to help with "lost compression". There are no miracle fluids that actually do what these products claim to do.

Just use a high-quality full-synthetic oil if you're worried about the best lubrication or detergents. Add-ins are just snake oil, IMHO.