Engine dies shortly after startup

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Ickoris
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:12 pm
Car: 1992 240sx s13
s14 KA24DE

Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby Ickoris » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:13 pm

Hey I'm 16 and this is my first build and i'm having a lot of trouble with it, there is probably a simple answere to my troubles but im not seeing it, any help is welcome


This is a KA24DE s14 engine that I swapped into a 92 240sx s13 body, The engine starts up and runs for 5 to 10 seconds, but when the ECM tries to take over the engine bogs down and dies. What i mean by take over is when it finishes the initial start and then tries to idle down something with the ECM make the engine die on me, I've been troubleshooting for weeks now and can't figure it out, I have the consult port hooked up and tried to figure out whats wrong but I'm not having much luck. The MAF is new and works, I tested the Idle Air Control Valve and seems to work and the Throttle Position Sensor is getting the proper reading.

Here is a digital reading from the consult port I recorded, if anybody see's anything that i don't it would be a great help.

Time, Entry, RPM, Water Temp C, Throttle, Timing, AAC, Injector, Duty Cycle, O2 Sensor, Air Flow, Clsd Throttle, Cooling Fan
01:35:35.265, 452, 1525, 12, 0.44, 16, 64, 2.4, 3, 0, 1.02, 1, 0
01:35:35.296, 453, 1500, 12, 0.44, 16, 64, 2.44, 3, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:35.312, 454, 1500, 12, 0.44, 16, 64, 2.44, 3, 0, 1.03, 1, 0
01:35:35.375, 455, 1512, 12, 0.44, 16, 63, 2.4, 3, 0, 1.03, 1, 0
01:35:35.421, 456, 1462, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.44, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:35.421, 457, 1475, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.44, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:35.437, 458, 1475, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.44, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:35.468, 459, 1450, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.43, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:35.484, 460, 1450, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.43, 2, 0, 1.02, 1, 0
01:35:35.515, 461, 1462, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.43, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:35.531, 462, 1437, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.43, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:35.546, 463, 1425, 12, 0.44, 16, 62, 2.43, 2, 0, 0.99, 1, 0
01:35:35.562, 464, 1412, 12, 0.44, 17, 62, 2.42, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:35.593, 465, 1425, 12, 0.44, 17, 62, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:35.609, 466, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 62, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.97, 1, 0
01:35:35.640, 467, 1375, 12, 0.44, 18, 62, 2.47, 2, 0, 0.99, 1, 0
01:35:35.671, 468, 1400, 12, 0.44, 18, 62, 2.46, 2, 0, 0.95, 1, 0
01:35:35.687, 469, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 61, 2.46, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:35.718, 470, 1412, 12, 0.44, 17, 61, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:35.734, 471, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 61, 2.46, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:35.750, 472, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 61, 2.46, 2, 0, 0.94, 1, 0
01:35:35.796, 473, 1425, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.41, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:35.812, 474, 1412, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.41, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:35.828, 475, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.46, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:35.843, 476, 1425, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.41, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:35.875, 477, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.45, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:35.890, 478, 1375, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.45, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:35.906, 479, 1350, 12, 0.44, 18, 60, 2.45, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:35.921, 480, 1362, 12, 0.44, 22, 60, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.99, 1, 0
01:35:35.953, 481, 1375, 12, 0.44, 20, 60, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:35.984, 482, 1362, 12, 0.44, 20, 60, 2.44, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:36.015, 483, 1375, 12, 0.44, 20, 60, 2.44, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:36.031, 484, 1387, 12, 0.44, 18, 60, 2.44, 2, 0, 1.02, 1, 0
01:35:36.046, 485, 1387, 12, 0.44, 17, 60, 2.44, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:36.093, 486, 1362, 12, 0.44, 20, 59, 2.44, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:36.109, 487, 1387, 12, 0.44, 20, 59, 2.44, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:36.140, 488, 1387, 12, 0.44, 17, 59, 2.44, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:36.140, 489, 1375, 12, 0.44, 17, 59, 2.44, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:36.187, 490, 1375, 12, 0.44, 18, 59, 2.43, 2, 0, 0.95, 1, 0
01:35:36.203, 491, 1400, 12, 0.44, 18, 58, 2.43, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:36.234, 492, 1387, 12, 0.44, 17, 58, 2.43, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.265, 493, 1375, 12, 0.44, 17, 58, 2.43, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.281, 494, 1400, 12, 0.44, 18, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.296, 495, 1400, 12, 0.44, 17, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.328, 496, 1387, 12, 0.44, 17, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.89, 1, 0
01:35:36.343, 497, 1375, 12, 0.44, 17, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:36.375, 498, 1362, 12, 0.44, 18, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:36.390, 499, 1362, 12, 0.44, 20, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:36.406, 500, 1337, 12, 0.44, 20, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:36.421, 501, 1312, 12, 0.44, 24, 58, 2.42, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.453, 502, 1300, 12, 0.44, 28, 58, 2.46, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:36.484, 503, 1262, 12, 0.44, 28, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.515, 504, 1250, 12, 0.44, 28, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.91, 1, 0
01:35:36.515, 505, 1212, 12, 0.44, 28, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.94, 1, 0
01:35:36.546, 506, 1212, 12, 0.44, 28, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:36.562, 507, 1225, 12, 0.44, 32, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.578, 508, 1237, 12, 0.44, 30, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.609, 509, 1225, 12, 0.44, 29, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:36.640, 510, 1200, 12, 0.44, 30, 59, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:36.640, 511, 1200, 12, 0.44, 34, 59, 2.49, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:36.656, 512, 1212, 12, 0.44, 34, 58, 2.45, 2, 0, 0.94, 1, 0
01:35:36.671, 513, 1225, 12, 0.44, 32, 58, 2.44, 2, 0, 0.92, 1, 0
01:35:36.703, 514, 1162, 12, 0.44, 30, 62, 2.48, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.718, 515, 1125, 12, 0.44, 34, 68, 2.48, 2, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:36.750, 516, 1125, 12, 0.44, 34, 68, 2.48, 2, 0, 0.95, 1, 0
01:35:36.765, 517, 1137, 12, 0.44, 36, 66, 2.48, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:36.781, 518, 1112, 12, 0.44, 36, 70, 2.48, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:36.828, 519, 1100, 12, 0.44, 36, 72, 2.52, 2, 0, 0.99, 1, 0
01:35:36.859, 520, 1112, 12, 0.44, 36, 70, 2.48, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:36.875, 521, 1087, 12, 0.44, 36, 74, 2.52, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:36.890, 522, 1050, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.51, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:36.921, 523, 1050, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.51, 2, 0, 0.97, 1, 0
01:35:36.937, 524, 1000, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.6, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:36.968, 525, 1012, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.6, 2, 0, 0.97, 1, 0
01:35:36.984, 526, 1012, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.58, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:37.000, 527, 1037, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.52, 2, 0, 0.99, 1, 0
01:35:37.015, 528, 1000, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.64, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:37.031, 529, 1000, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.68, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:37.062, 530, 937, 12, 0.44, 36, 80, 2.81, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:37.093, 531, 887, 12, 0.44, 35, 80, 2.83, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:37.093, 532, 887, 12, 0.44, 35, 80, 2.95, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:37.109, 533, 850, 12, 0.44, 34, 80, 3.03, 2, 0, 0.99, 1, 0
01:35:37.140, 534, 850, 12, 0.44, 34, 80, 3.04, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:37.171, 535, 800, 12, 0.44, 34, 80, 3.1, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:37.187, 536, 737, 12, 0.44, 34, 80, 3.3, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:37.218, 537, 737, 12, 0.44, 34, 80, 3.34, 2, 0, 1, 1, 0
01:35:37.250, 538, 675, 12, 0.44, 33, 80, 3.6, 2, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:37.250, 539, 675, 12, 0.44, 33, 80, 3.58, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:37.265, 540, 675, 12, 0.44, 32, 80, 3.56, 2, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:37.296, 541, 612, 12, 0.44, 32, 80, 3.86, 1, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:37.328, 542, 537, 12, 0.44, 32, 80, 3.95, 1, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:37.359, 543, 537, 12, 0.44, 32, 80, 4.49, 2, 0, 1.01, 1, 0
01:35:37.375, 544, 537, 12, 0.44, 32, 80, 4.54, 2, 0, 1.03, 1, 0
01:35:37.390, 545, 537, 12, 0.44, 30, 80, 4.59, 2, 0, 1.02, 1, 0
01:35:37.437, 546, 450, 12, 0.44, 30, 80, 5.46, 2, 0, 1.03, 1, 0
01:35:37.453, 547, 450, 12, 0.44, 30, 80, 5.5, 2, 0, 1.02, 1, 0
01:35:37.453, 548, 450, 12, 0.44, 30, 80, 5.57, 2, 0, 1.04, 1, 0
01:35:37.468, 549, 450, 12, 0.44, 30, 80, 5.71, 2, 0, 1.07, 1, 0
01:35:37.484, 550, 362, 12, 0.44, 29, 80, 7.19, 2, 0, 1.05, 1, 0
01:35:37.531, 551, 362, 12, 0.44, 29, 80, 7.19, 2, 0, 1.06, 1, 0
01:35:37.546, 552, 362, 12, 0.44, 29, 80, 7.23, 2, 0, 1.04, 1, 0
01:35:37.562, 553, 362, 12, 0.44, 29, 80, 7.32, 2, 0, 1.06, 1, 0
01:35:37.593, 554, 362, 12, 0.44, 29, 80, 7.39, 2, 0, 1.05, 1, 0
01:35:37.609, 555, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 7.01, 1, 0, 1.02, 1, 0
01:35:37.640, 556, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 8.88, 1, 0, 0.98, 1, 0
01:35:37.671, 557, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 8.37, 1, 0, 0.96, 1, 0
01:35:37.687, 558, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 7.9, 1, 0, 0.93, 1, 0
01:35:37.703, 559, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 7.66, 1, 0, 0.9, 1, 0
01:35:37.734, 560, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 7.1, 1, 0, 0.88, 1, 0
01:35:37.750, 561, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 6.96, 1, 0, 0.86, 1, 0
01:35:37.781, 562, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 6.77, 1, 0, 0.84, 1, 0
01:35:37.812, 563, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 6.21, 1, 0, 0.82, 1, 0
01:35:37.828, 564, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 6.56, 1, 0, 0.84, 1, 0
01:35:37.859, 565, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 6.01, 1, 0, 0.8, 1, 0
01:35:37.890, 566, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 5.9, 1, 0, 0.78, 1, 0
01:35:37.906, 567, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 5.65, 1, 0, 0.76, 1, 0
01:35:37.921, 568, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 5.34, 1, 0, 0.74, 1, 0
01:35:37.953, 569, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 4.93, 1, 0, 0.7, 1, 0
01:35:37.984, 570, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 4.6, 0, 0, 0.67, 1, 0
01:35:37.984, 571, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 4.19, 0, 0, 0.61, 1, 0
01:35:38.000, 572, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.61, 0, 0, 0.56, 1, 0
01:35:38.031, 573, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.46, 0, 0, 0.55, 1, 0
01:35:38.062, 574, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.46, 0, 0, 0.44, 1, 0
01:35:38.078, 575, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.45, 0, 0, 0.42, 1, 0
01:35:38.109, 576, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.44, 0, 0, 0.42, 1, 0
01:35:38.140, 577, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.44, 0, 0, 0.4, 1, 0
01:35:38.140, 578, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.44, 0, 0, 0.4, 1, 0
01:35:38.187, 579, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.44, 0, 0, 0.38, 1, 0
01:35:38.203, 580, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.44, 0, 0, 0.34, 1, 0
01:35:38.234, 581, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.43, 0, 0, 0.3, 1, 0
01:35:38.265, 582, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.43, 0, 0, 0.3, 1, 0
01:35:38.281, 583, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.43, 0, 0, 0.29, 1, 0
01:35:38.296, 584, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.43, 0, 0, 0.29, 1, 0
01:35:38.312, 585, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.42, 0, 0, 0.28, 1, 0
01:35:38.343, 586, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.42, 0, 0, 0.28, 1, 0
01:35:38.359, 587, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.42, 0, 0, 0.28, 1, 0
01:35:38.390, 588, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.42, 0, 0, 0.27, 1, 0
01:35:38.406, 589, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.42, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.437, 590, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.41, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.437, 591, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.41, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.453, 592, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.41, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.484, 593, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.41, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.500, 594, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.41, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.531, 595, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.4, 0, 0, 0.26, 1, 0
01:35:38.546, 596, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.4, 0, 0, 0.25, 1, 0
01:35:38.578, 597, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.4, 0, 0, 0.24, 1, 0
01:35:38.593, 598, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.4, 0, 0, 0.24, 1, 0
01:35:38.609, 599, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.41, 0, 0, 0.24, 1, 0
01:35:38.625, 600, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.4, 0, 0, 0.24, 1, 0
01:35:38.640, 601, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 3.39, 0, 0, 0.24, 1, 0


amc49
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:24 pm
Car: '11 Versa
'17 Altima

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby amc49 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:26 pm

The ECM 'takes over' BEFORE the engine even starts............look for a possible fuel supply issue.

Ickoris
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:12 pm
Car: 1992 240sx s13
s14 KA24DE

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby Ickoris » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:41 am

The fuel seems to be fine, the pump is good and the injectors work fine, as I said it runs perfectly in the initial start up, I phrased my last entry poorly, The ECM starts to receive a bad signal, or is computing something wrong that causes the engine to bog down. The engine actually runs when the MAF is unplugged, but i've tested the MAF and it works fine. I think it has to do with air flow but i cant figure out what.

Ickoris
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:12 pm
Car: 1992 240sx s13
s14 KA24DE

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby Ickoris » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:43 pm

anyone else having the same problems

amc49
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:24 pm
Car: '11 Versa
'17 Altima

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby amc49 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:54 pm

'01:35:37.984, 570, 250, 12, 0.44, 26, 80, 4.6, ZERO, 0, 0.67, 1, 0'

The ZERO is mine.

The injector duty cycle (if that is what it is) went to zero, can't get any fuel like that..............

amc49
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:24 pm
Car: '11 Versa
'17 Altima

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby amc49 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:06 pm

The injector voltage suddenly gets way high and then drops off and right about when it stabilizes the injector cycle drops to zero.

simpsonsinspokane
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:16 pm
Car: 1992 Nissan 240sx S13

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby simpsonsinspokane » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Hi, I am OP’s father but as new to the KA24DE as he is so we are learning as we go.

I’ve noticed a few things about the ecutalk logs

The engine stabilized briefly around 1400 rpms

Then it starts to fall a little and the first change in the log is timing advances

Shortly after that, the AAC% starts going up as the rpms fall.

On the injector side of things, the injector voltage remains stable until the rpm really starts dropping at which point the voltage goes up which seems to correlate with the rpm dropping below normal range leading me to think that maybe the system voltage is dropping and the ecu is trying to compensate? The duty cycle goes down to 2 and then to 1, and eventually to zero once the engine has essentially died (at 250 rpm).

We have noticed that the duty cycle starts at 3 which seems hi, but the ambient temp is really low, so perhaps that is a correct value to have.

After review of each logged item and after reviewing other logs posted to the forums, I am thinking that everything we see in the log is the ecu reacting to the rpms dropping and the engine eventually dying.

If I’m right then the log doesn’t reveal the cause, only the symptoms!

If these are the symptoms, what is the cause? Million dollar question I know but I think we have eliminated the maf, tps, iacv, fuel pressure regulator. We did egr delete and also removed the swirl control valve and also the pair valve.

We plan to do a better vacuum test (have only done the starter fluid spray test so far)

But if it was vacuum I would expect a lean condition whereas we seem to have a very rich condition based on spark plug appearance and exhaust appearance.

Any further suggestions or ideas?

Many thanks!

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AZhitman
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Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby AZhitman » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:19 pm

Did you remove the IACV? What's the fuel pressure at the rail? Also, and I know it's a silly question, but are we certain fuel lines aren't reversed? The return is after the FPR, and reversing them can cause an issue similar to what is described.

Having dealt with a very similar issue on my NA SR20, it ultimately turned out to be a bad ECU (only determined after replacing MAF, VTC solenoid, TPS, FPR, and... ugh. Lots of troubleshooting).

amc49
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:24 pm
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'17 Altima

Re: Engine dies shortly after startup

Postby amc49 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:55 am

FWIW the starting duty cycle of 3 is fine, all engines start up rich for a second, it's in the software, it helps them start faster, just like old school choke plate shutting completely just for the start and then opens up some as soon as the engine begins to run to the choke qualifying point the engine uses to warm up on.

Something whacky there. If the number in front of the injector duty cycle is the voltage to injector then electronic control issue or should be.............the voltage goes up WITH duty cycle and tied together I'm thinking, the faster the cycle the more the volts but not happening there at all.

When a duty cycle goes up the voltage does too, it's getting a greater % of the whole 100% number.

'...we seem to have a very rich condition based on spark plug appearance and exhaust appearance.'

To be expected. The engine is not running right. When you stop or kill an engine immediately after it starts they will load the plugs up rich if you do it several times. It may even show plugs rich when the engine is actually lean. Why? The engine has not had enough time to warm up and the warming up is what burns the plugs back clean. The normal plug heat ranges are not picked for cold running and a quick kill, they are picked for the temperature expected with much longer running.


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