"Engine clatter"

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

yes, it is true, my car is in desperate need of maintenance, but thats beside the point...

this morning, i took my 240 out for a pleasure ride on the empty streets, where i raced a motorcycle...i was havin fun, and it was one of my dad's friends on his way to work...anyway, when i brought the car to rest at the following stoplight, i noticed this sound coming from under the hood. so i pulled into the nearest gas station, opened the hood, and found where the sound was coming from. it was right beneath the oil cap. now, the sound used to be a real faint rattle, but now it seems like it's amplified. my dad thought it was a lifter problem, and believes that theres a chip of carbon or something on or in the relative proximity of the lifter, and i had just put some of that gumout fuel additive to help make my emissions cleaner, so it kinda made sense to me. anyway, the oil was low, so i put 2 quarts in (i think i have a leak...) and started it up. the sound was still there. anyway, i took off the oil cap and listened to the inside of the engine (while getting oil droplets splattered on my glasses) and the noise was definately coming from inside the engine. i thought the water temperature might have something to do with it, so i checked the radiator water level and everything checked out okay. my dad also said that this happened before, and a day or 2 or 3 later the sound just disappeared.

but yeah, this is my problem, and it makes me nervous to drive it..i need some help, ASAP please. thanks.

[NISTECH]

have you done a chain yet? Have you removed the upper guide?

[BadMojo]

anyway, the oil was low, so i put 2 quarts in (i think i have a leak...) and started it up. the sound was still there.

I think that may be the key. Like Nistech said, the timing chain is definitely a possible suspect. The chain tensioners are operated by oil pressure, so if you've got a leak and maybe low pressure...chain ends up slapping against stuff, which isn't good.

Nistech is our resident expert, so perhaps he can help you track down that oil leak. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the problems were related.

Just out of curiousity, is the sound a somewhat arrhythmic, hollow tapping sound?

[NISTECH]

not only am I a resident...I am a Nissan Certified engine specialist...ASE Master tech and ASE L1 Automotive engine performance specialist....What ever all that means.....lol

OH OH wait I also recieved Nissans owners first award of excellence for 2004..... all that and about 3 bucks will get me a cup of coffee at starbucks...he he he

[BadMojo]

ASE L1 Automotive engine performance specialist....What ever all that means.....lol

That is all genuinely impressive. NICO is very lucky to have you around. Really though, what is an L1 Automotive etc...?

Have you ever considered moving to lovely Reading, Pa... 'cause the guys at my local Nissan shop truly and righteously suck!

[NISTECH]

L1 is an ASE test you take that is about 5 times harder then the other 8 tests it takes to become an ASE master tech. The test is gear for emission control diagnostics and repair. Primarily for the state of california Smog check license which I also have.

I will never move to the east coast sorry. Me and humidity DO NOT get along. I dont do well in snow either...lol I honestly dont know how any techs in and around the salt belt have any desire to live and work in that area. I would quit with in weeks of working on that stuff back there. I have seen a few cars out here from the salt belt. I honestly cant believe people back there dont put a stop to the use of salt on the roads due to the amount of damage it does to the cars body components and other metal exterior areas. I would charge double the labor rate if I had to wotrk on an exterior component that was that rusted. Hell I do when I have to work with them out here. I cant even say you work on them. You dont take them apart you cut them apart.. truely sad.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

Just out of curiousity, is the sound a somewhat arrhythmic, hollow tapping sound?

yes! and i took the car to O'Reily (however thats spelled) to get some MORE oil and some of that oil treatment that increases viscosity (so far 3 quarts of oil) and i talked to one of the guys that works there, and he said that hes heard that before, and he thinks it may be some kind of floating sensor that works off oil pressure, and that the sound may be a valve thats off timing-or something like that-and id either need to stop my leak (there is definately an oil leak) or buy another one of those sensors from nissan and stop my leak. my stepdad also thinks it may be a valve problem, but he thinks that a valve might need to be reseated or adjusted.

also, the rubber thing that goes over the spark plug (the boot? i dont know what its called) doesnt completely seat, because when my dad was wrestling to get it off, i think part of the boot tore, but it wasnt where any wires or anything like that were. it was just where excess rubber is. nevertheless, the spark plug cover/boot type thing doesn't seat properly, and when the engine is on, i can feel a steady sharp vibration through the top of the plug cover if i put my finger or hand on it. anyone know where i can get that part? im sure its a direct from Nissan part. is it? and about how much would one of those run me? also, if they come in packs of 4, would that be a better deal?

thanks for help...sorry for the long response.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

btw the 93 KA24DE that i have doesnt have lifters...sorry my (my dads) mistake.

[NISTECH]

It sounds like your talking about the wire it self. just buy a wire set all the boot stuff is part of the wires.

Also I have not one clue what "floating" sensor he is reffering to. As far as I know nissans dont have floating sensors other then the fuel sender in the tank to tell you haw much gas you have.

[BadMojo]

anyone know where i can get that part? im sure its a direct from Nissan part. is it? and about how much would one of those run me? also, if they come in packs of 4, would that be a better deal?

You could get OE wires from a Nissan dealer. They should go about $100. You could also check one of our sponsors (look left) and get the Nissan wires a bit cheaper.

You could also get aftermarket wires. http://www.pdm-racing.com sells Aurora wires. I really don't know much about them, but they are fairly inexpensive and PDM Racing is very reputable.

I've also heard that NGK wires are very nice. Not sure how much cheaper they are than the OE ones. Again, you can see what some of our sponsors are stocking as far as wires for the DOHC KA24DE engine.

Just out of curiousity, there isn't still bits of rubber down in the spark plug well, are there? You really don't want that falling *in* when you pull your plugs.

Also, you *really* need to track down that oil leak. Dumping more oil in there along with various additives isn't the answer. I'd worry about the oil problem before the torn boot on your wires (except for that whole "piece of rubber falling in to the combustion chamber" thing).

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

lol, no, nothing got torn OFF, the boot just got seperated a little bit from the actual wire. where the thick wire meets up with the roundy-type rubber "top", well that and the veryical boot that actually comes into contact with the spark plug just got pulled away from each other a little bit...my dad was dumb and tried to change the spark plugs while the engine was hot...the rubber was prolly weaker than it would have been if it was cold, and he had to manhandle the damned thing to get it off in the first place.

anyway, i went back and read scottnashley's (i think thats who it was) problem about the oil only leaking while it was running, and not stopped, and i think im going to check that out in the morning. also, any tips on how i could track the leak down? like, what hoses/wires/lines would i have to look at? i wouldnt even begin to know where to start.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

ok i know this is kinda late, but i was going to try to stop my leak before i posted anything else.

the timing chain, tensioners, guides ect were all done about a year ago, so they are still brand (almost) new. whats this upper guide youre talking about? is it that cam guide (or something like that) that nissan went on a campaign telling everyone to remove?

also, if it isnt the oil pressure switch that is leaking oil, what else do i need to look for?

thanks

(sorry for necro post)

[BadMojo]

Nistech can correct me if I'm wrong (of course he will!) but there are two upper guides that are no longer needed. One is between the cam gears and the other is lower on the driver's side. You CANNOT omit either of the two lower guides on the KA24DE engine. I believe one or both of the lower guides was redesigned at some point.

As for your oil leak...well, it could be the rear main oil seal. If it was that, chances are the undercarriage would be splattered with oil (I know mine was) from oil leaking while the car was at high speeds.

It could also be the front crankshaft oil seal, the front cover oil seal or a leak from the oil pan. Are you sure it's leaking and not burning? Do you see a spot under the car when it's parked for a while?

If your engine is really grimy, you might want to clean it up a bit to make it easier to find your leak. It's tough tracking something like that down when your engine is covered in filth.

[NISTECH]

No nothing to correct.

I am unsure about the second guide though. I was only aware of the upper guide that nissan said to remove. I think the side guide is more based on owners experiance removing them is what brought that one on. but I have heard it helps cut the noise.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

yes, i know it's leaking, the only time i get white smoke is upon cold startup, and it only lasts for the duration of a single, 3500 RPM rev, then it goes away. as for my poor driveway, yes, it is almost covered in oil. wherever i park, there is always a big (about 3.5-4") oil puddle. i looked at the oil pressure switch, which was hinted at by others before, and it was practically soaked in oil. the undercarriage is virtually clean (as far as oil is concerned) and the only part with oil on it is the bottom and sides of the oil pan (so basically the oil pan) and an assload of other engine components. i think its one, if not more of these four things.

1. the oil pressure switch2. head gasket (upon nistech's guidance)3. front crankshaft oil seal (the more i think about it, the more sense it makes...i still need to check it first)4. the front cover oil seal.

with the front CS oil seal, where exactally is that located? i haven't been that deep into my engine bay to actually locate the crankshaft pulley or any of that...and i dont know if the pulley is what the oil seal is broken from if indeed it is a front CS oil seal prob.

i have never heard of a front cover oil seal... a little help? lol...pictures would be VERY appreciated as well, but if its not an option, a description does well also.

THANKS!! omg thanks

[NISTECH]

2. head gasket (upon nistech's guidance)

Exactly where did I say the head gasket was likely your oil leak??

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

when i said that the bottom of my engine from the valve cover down was covered in oil...i think thats when it was, ill correct it if im wrong, and ill go dig up the article.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

"sounds like a valve cover gasket to me if you have oil all over the outside of the head." -NISTECH

ah ok valve cover gasket...SORRY! wrong gasket. i hadn't slept when i posted that so things were getting kinda mixy in my head.

my mistake

[NISTECH]

LOL..... thats cool I was thinking to my self I wouldnt say the head. When did I say that?? You had me questioning my self.I was also a bit worried You might have done a pretty involved job you really didnt need to. Glad you didnt jump right in:D

[midnightclubbaa]

the sound you're hearing is the timing chain i have the same noise partly the reson i'm getting a new motor

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

lol yeah, so anyway how do i go about taking out that upper guide? is there any site i need to go to in order to get any information about what i need to do, or could someone give me a quick rundown?

is the job easy? and by easy i mean, no having to practically disassemble the engine and disconnect countless hoses and such.

wether its easy or hard, im still up for it, i just wanna know what i should expect...also, any recommended tools for the job? i have just about every tool at my disposal...my dads buddy is an automotive mechanics teacher at a school down here.

thanks for all the help!

[NISTECH]

remove the valve cover. look where the chain spans between the 2 cam gears. If the guide is present it will be over the top of the chain between the gears. It is held in by 2 12mm bolts just behind the chain toward the cam lobes. If all you see is 2 holes for bolts between the chain and the first lobes between the cams it has already been removed. The other guide these guys are talking about[which i have never removed] is on the side where the chain goes down toward the idler gear.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

cool, im gonna crack the valve cover off and do that this weekend!

cant wait lol

[BadMojo]

The other guide these guys are talking about[which i have never removed] is on the side where the chain goes down toward the idler gear.

Nistech, as far as I know, you can't even buy that other upper guide anymore. However, I've never actually seen the TSB related to the guides on the KA24DE, so I'm only going by what's been posted here on NICO.

Thus far, I've only removed the guide between the cam gears. Of course, this didn't stop the noise. There was some definite wear on the guide.

[NISTECH]

you cant nissan discontinued making it year ago. Other guys are removing the guide on the side of the upper chain as well to eliminate that noise. I dont recommend it cause I would think the chain would have to much slop.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

ok, oil pressure switch...how the hell do i get it off?

ive been working on it for about 2 hours now, until the sun decided to hate me and go down, leaving me in the dark. now, here is my problem:

i have tried using all kinds of pliers, needle nose, long groove joint, vice grip, needle nose vice grip, regular, robogrip, i even looked for a socket that would fit, but to no avail. anyway, when i grip the pliers on the piece, they get a GOOD bite, and when i go to turn the pliers, they just slip right off the nut piece. my step dad was able to get a better grip than me, and he even used his entire body as leverage, and the only thing that moved were the pliers when they popped right off. now, i have an idea, and i need to have this confirmed...from the bottom, its hell and there is hardly any space to move the pliers around, and when i can finally get them positioned, the pliers and my hands and arms are so covered in oil that it literally takes me 5 minutes to get the pliers positioned. so i figured, id change my oil, which is about 2000 miles overdue anyway, and take off the filter and get to the switch from there, then id have a lot more leverage and less oil and grime all over me and my pliers. is this a better idea, or do i need to stick with going in from the bottom? also, does anyone have any tips or tricks that will be helpful in getting this damned thing out? also, in my futile attempts to break this damn thing loose, i broke off 2 of the plastic pieces that go over the metal contact, so i wouldnt really feel comfortable driving it around.

I NEED SOME HELP! THANKS!

[s13sr20chris]

27mm socket works good. little tiny threads should not be too tight though.

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

alright, ill try that approach if getting in without the oil filter in doesnt work.

thaks!@

[DrIfT_FoReVeR]

ok, i finally got it done! around 7 or so, i finished everything up. i replaced the oil pressure switch and changed the oil. i was right, when i took off the filter, i had plenty of room from the top to take the switch off. the switch on the inside was caked with oil and grime.

now, here is my prob. the rattle went away for a while, but after the oil got worked around in the engine, it came back, but not as loud or as bad as before. i also lost a little bit of power, i think because i switched to a 10w-40 from a 10w-30, but after about 20 mins of normal driving, i felt a little bit of the power come back, and its a little bit unsettling. anyone have any ideas as to why i lost some power?

THANKS! thanks for all the support and help.

[s13sr20chris]

that power is not the oil. oil should not be noticable. you have an intermittant condition. try wiggling some wires and see what happens. a little tapping on the maf could also reveal a prob.