Empty oil crankcase after Dealer Repair

[Benster]

We had our 2002 Pathfinder SE (190,000 miles) towed the Nissan dealer after it malfunctioned. The diagnosis was a faulty Engine Control Module and relay. We had them replaced, along with front brakes and spark plugs replacement and oil change. My son drove the car for 1,400 miles and then the oil light started coming on and off. He also noticed engine noise. I checked the oil dipstick and there was NO READING. I then put in a quart of oil. Still NO READING. Another quart, still no reading. 4 and one half quarts later, I got a reading of 1/2 to 2/3 quart low!!!!! Since the oil crankcase capacity is 5 to 5 1/4 quarts, the math suggests that the crankcase was entirely empty.
I drove it back to the dealer and they inspected the vehicle and changed the oil, and reset the check engine light. They now want us to drive it for 400 miles and reinspect the check engine light for possible catalytic converter issues. Sounds to me like they forgot to put the new oil in during the oil change. What are your thoughts?

Thanks

[MisterH]

That's really unfortunate. It's highly unlikely the dealer failed to refill the crankcase after an oil change. Had that been the case the low oil light would have come on instantly and it would have been noticed by the mechanic or whoever drove the car from the dealership. Second, the lack of any oil in the engine would have been obvious within a few miles of driving and I doubt you would have been able to drive more than 50 miles before main bearing knocking noise got became apparent or the engine seized up from lack of lubrication. You said your son drove the car for 1400 miles and that wouldn't have been possible with no oil at all.

What I'm mystified by is what DIDN'T happen after you returned the car to the dealership AFTER putting oil in. Was a thorough inspection done to determine where the oil leak was? There's a huge gap in the story.

[PathyPop]

Ditto on what MisterH said. If the oil light came on after 1400* miles, that warning would have been well before any lubrication failures unless it was a significant and immediate leak. Now, on the noise, these VQ35 engines are VERY sensitive to oil type and level when it comes to the VVT solenoid. I've had my problems with the wrong viscosity, but others have written about being just a quart low triggering lights and limp mode. Limp mode equals reduced power and limited rpm that seems like an engine about to fail. Good luck on the results.

(*different story if it was 140 miles?, that could be more like a failure due to no oil)

[Benster]

Yes, upon returning it to the dealer, they inspected it and found no significant oil leak. We are now still waiting until my son drives it 400 miles on the new oil change and we take it back to the dealer. I have been around cars by entire life and this one really baffles me. Hopefully, the truth comes out.

Thanks for your interest.

[MisterH]

That's really strange. Oil can only leave the engine two ways: either it leaks out through a breach somewhere or it is burned in the combustion chamber and exits the tailpipe as smoke.
Also seems odd that the dealer would change the oil after having already done it at 1,400 miles AND after you said you refilled it shortly thereafter. What would be the reasoning behind that? Also, did you ask what triggered the CEL and why inspect the catalytic converter after a supposed massive loss of oil. None of this really makes sense.

[Benster]

I think they changed the oil again as part of the inspection process. They want to check out the catalytic converter because they said it was possible that the honeycomb in the converter got sucked back into the engine and caused damage to the engine. That's all I know. I'll post again after 400 miles on the new oil change.

[ArmedAviator]

They want to check out the catalytic converter because they said it was possible that the honeycomb in the converter got sucked back into the engine and caused damage to the engine.

No.

However, if the oil was burned in that short time frame, the carbon deposits could render the cat below required efficiency (or not working at all), throwing a cat efficiency code and lighting up the CEL.

As said above, the crankcase was probably filled. It may have been under filled. The most likely source of oil leakage after an oil change is improperly removing the oil filter, leaving the old rubber gasket on the vehicle. When the new oil filter is screwed on, the gasket-to-gasket contact will leak like crazy unless it's very tight....but it will still leak.

I take it, these cars do not have an "oil level low" indication, but instead an "oil pressure low" light, as most vehicles? If you just started getting the light and stopped driving it immediately, damage may be minimal if any. If it was continued to be driven with low/no oil pressure, the engine will be problematic for the remainder of it's dramatically shortened life.

[Benster]

Well, yesterday my son came over for dinner and we checked the oil level after he put 185 miles on the new oil change. It was over a quart low, so I presume the engine is now "toast". Not sure whether to junk the car or pour more money into it. Has anyone out there rebuilt or replaced an engine in a Pathfinder with 195,000 miles on it? The original dealer repair for the the faulty engine control module, relay, brakes, etc was over $3,600. The body is still in very good shape. I fear I may have given my son bad advice to go ahead with the original repair in March 2017.

[ArmedAviator]

Your best bet would be to talk to your local, trusty, mechanic and see if he can source a used engine that he will replace it with. This method is the cheapest (besides doing it yourself), however usually comes with no warranty. If you want a warranty on the engine/work, the dealership may be able to replace your engine with a remanufactured engine but will be more costly.

I'd start by pursuing quotes on those two options, and then compare with the cost of replacing the vehicle and then make your decision.

[PathyPop]

I'd want to know where that oil is going though. A quart in a couple hundred miles should be smoking and it should show up at the tailpipe as either oily or black soot, or both. If you're really lucky it could be the PCV valve allowing oil into the intake (I've read about valve covers that allow oil to get sucked in). If you're less lucky it might be the top end, the valve guides maybe and not that hard or expensive for an independent mechanic to do the work. If it's piston rings that are shot that would be major work it's likely not worth it.

When it comes to the dealer I told my son the #1 rule is don't go to the dealer unless it's for warranty work and to find a good independent mechanic. I'd even question if you really needed the ECM replaced. To me that's like saying your Pentium processor needs replaced when really its everything else that's more likely to fail. But it's easy money for the dealer and not understood by the customer. I've had a couple of experiences like that. I'm not a mechanic, but I can do most everything except bottom end work.

[bryanmenard]

The oil light is a low pressure light, not a low oil level light. This is clearly explained in the manuals - both owners and service. Low oil level would trip a VVT code (Service Engine Soon) before oil pressure would drop to critical level, in my experience. I have a ScanGauge mounted in my car so I can pull codes instantly so it's not a big deal for me to do on the fly. My 2003 had a major oil leak and I had to drive it for a few weeks with a major leak before I could have it fixed so I got very familiar with how it works.

The car needs far less oil than its capacity to run fine, well below the low marking on the dipstick, so don't freak out but keep it topped off and check it often until you know the source of the oil loss. Check it after every drive and keep it topped off.

[ArmedAviator]

The oil light is a low pressure light, not a low oil level light. This is clearly explained in the manuals - both owners and service. Low oil level would trip a VVT code (Service Engine Soon) before oil pressure would drop to critical level, in my experience. I have a ScanGauge mounted in my car so I can pull codes instantly so it's not a big deal for me to do on the fly. My 2003 had a major oil leak and I had to drive it for a few weeks with a major leak before I could have it fixed so I got very familiar with how it works.

The car needs far less oil than its capacity to run fine, well below the low marking on the dipstick, so don't freak out but keep it topped off and check it often until you know the source of the oil loss. Check it after every drive and keep it topped off.

Yes, the oil light is a low pressure light, and it will come on at a pressure above 0psi but below normal idle psi (whatever that may be).

Either way, if the oil pump is being starved, you can bet your bottom dollar that the oil pressure will be okay and then drop off to 0psi as nothing but air is sucked up. Keep in mind, as the RPM increases and side forces on the car occur, the oil sump an easily be starved if it's below it's normal level - not to mention way way below.

Everyone, check your oil level every time you fill up the gas, every Sunday, or some other reasonable interval. Going months without checking is ludicrous. The BEST way to stay ahead of maintenance is to notice something isn't right LOOONG before it gets to such a situation. Additionally, kind of related to the OP's initial thoughts, I always inspect work done at a shop or dealer before handing money over. Always.

I'd still be looking at a new engine or a new car, OP.