East coast ethanol question.....

[nuQ]

I live in PA, Lehigh Valley-and north area (Lehighton PA), and we actually have gas station (yes---national brands, too) that advertise on their pumps that they are "ethanol free". My question is,,,,,,how can a small station, in the middle of nowhere PA, get a special delivery of non-ethanol added gasonline? It seems to me that gas trucks would not find it viable to deliver special ethanol-free loads to specific stations (maybe 5 -10 in this large area)....

Are the stations advertising this legit? Is there really special "Ethanol Free" gas trucks driving around for the few that know the difference?????! ps....this will settle an argument

[paranoidjack]

nuQ I'd advise posting a few pics before you get flamed, lol!

Seriously, that's awesome if it's true. My guess is they're lying! If not, scope them out for a few days until a delivery then talk to the driver!

[nuQ]

Well, from what I understand, PA law is that if a pump has ethanol added to the fuel, by law, the pump has to post it. Most every pump has a sign that states "Ethanol is added to this fuel". However, there are a few stations that I know for a fact clearly advertise that their fuel is ethanol free.

These are three that I personally know about;
1. A Shell station on Center St. in Bethlehem PA.
2. A Shell station on Schoenersville Rd., Bethlehem, PA
3. An independant station on Rt. 248, Walnutport, PA (not sure of the actual name, but will find out).
My girlfriend has a Shell card, and will only fill up (when she can, of course) at the first two stations, since she works in Bethlehem. The two Shell stations clearly advertise that their fuel is Ethanol free. I also find it very hard to believe a single tanker travels the area with Ethanol free gas, delivering only to select stations.
I should be in the Bethlehem area over the weekend, and I will definitely take pictures (and see if I can talk to the station managers to get their take..) to show what is going on.

[Q451990]

There are a few here like that too. I think it's legitimate...

Heath

[qship96]

Ethanol usage is mandated in many {most?} areas of the country- look at the EPA site for a country wide map of areas FORCED to sell only fuels with ethanol content- if your area is one of the ones included, ALL gas stations{100%} must comply and can only dispense this blend, whether it is labeled on the pumps or not! Some states require stickers, some dont.

[nuQ]

http://buyrealgas.com/

Here is a website that gives a state by state listing of ethanol free stations---the two Shell stations I mentioned are listed on the site...

[qship96]

I would put VERY little trust in that site, as they state that reports are from consumers who are only reporting what they see {lack of a sticker on a pump?} the EPA site shows where ethanol fuel is MANDATORY usage, which is official.

[Skibane]

I'm pretty skeptical about claims to be "ethanol-free", too.

Quite a few national gasoline brands are members of the Top Tier consortium of fuel standards:

76
Aloha Petroleum
Chevron
Chevron Canada
Conoco
CountryMark
Entec Stations
Esso
Exxon
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
MFA Oil Co.
Mileage Stations
Mobil
Petro-Canada
Phillips 66
QuikTrip
Rebel Oil
Road Ranger
Severson Oil
Shell
Shell Canada
Sunoco Canada
Texaco
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Tri-Par Oil Co.
Turkey Hill Minit Markets
U.S. Oil

To be a member, a brand has to meet Top Tier fuel standards at EVERY SINGLE ONE of its retail stores. One of those standards requires that the fuel must contain between 8 and 10 percent ethanol:

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

1. Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2. Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3. Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
4. Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5. Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
6. Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.

So, either those Shell, Chevron, Texaco, 76, Conoco, Mobil, Phillips 66 and Exxon stations that claim to be "ethanol-free" are lying, or they're violating the terms of their companies' Top Tier membership.

[Skibane]

My question is,,,,,,how can a small station, in the middle of nowhere PA, get a special delivery of non-ethanol added gasonline?

The "raw" gasoline that is produced at local refineries doesn't contain most of the additives required by any particular brand of gas retailer. This additive "package" is only added when the raw gas is pumped into the tanker truck for delivery to a gas station - Driving the tanker to the gas station slosh-mixes the additives with the raw gas. This approach allows all brands to buy their raw gas from the same handful of local refineries, while still allowing them to sell finished gas which contains their own unique set of additives.

I don't know if ethanol is part of the additive package, or something that's included in the "raw" gasoline - If it's the former, a retailer could probably leave it out of their particular additive package.

[nuQ]

I suppose this begs the question, that if these handful of gasoline retailers are being truthful in advertising they sell ethanol free gasoline, there has to be tankers that are specifically delivering to these handful of stations. This seems, to me at least, to be very unreasonable and cost prohibative.

Like I said, I will try and stop in at one of these stations and go all Perry Mason on the managers! I will also take some pictures to show how they are advertising. I don't understand that if it's state/federal law that the pumps must advertise that there is an ethanol blend, how they could knowingly lie about having no ethanol in it's gas, and advertise that?? I would assume the other stations would report them (out of fear of lost business) for false advertising to, for instance--Shell, or the EPA....

[Skibane]

if these handful of gasoline retailers are being truthful in advertising they sell ethanol free gasoline, there has to be tankers that are specifically delivering to these handful of stations. This seems, to me at least, to be very unreasonable and cost prohibative.

In some cases, a tanker truck only makes a delivery to one gas station anyway. So, it wouldn't be any big deal for them to leave out some additives when filling up at the refinery, if their customer requested it.

[nuQ]

Well that would make sense then. I'm really curious to see what the owners tell me....

[nuQ]

As an update, ironically enough, yesterday my g/f went to her longtime ethanol-free Shell station to find the familiar 10% Ethanol signs on all the pumps. As I've stated they were never on the pumps before.
She sought out the owner and asked him WTF??! He told her that he no longer was able to get his ethanol free delivery, and even he was upset too, as he put that in his own car. Apparently, the tanker made deliveries at both Shell stations in Bethlehem, but isn't anymore. So I think the above remarks are correct, in the sense that Shell may be cracking down on it's stations all selling the same 10% ethanol blend. She is going to ask a few more questions as to if the ethanol is added in the refinery or 'down stream'...

[qship96]

I would not worry about it- millions and millions of cars are running just fine with the ethanol blend at 10 percent.....its not like we are seeing older cars littering the shoulders of the highways from using the stuff......somehow the Q forum was poisoned with an ethanol scare, when the real problem with old q injectors is the under plenum heat they are exposed to and the resulting cracking brittle plastic injector bodies......my Q has been running e10 blend exclusively for the last 125,000-150,000 miles without issues....when the injectors finally go, I will not blame ethanol as much as age and the massive heat/cool cycles that destroy everything under the plenum eventually

[Skibane]

It'll soon be increased to 15 percent ethanol. Our Great And Wonderful Leaders have deemed that the corn growing lobby must be appeased: The total amount of ethanol earmarked for use in gasoline was drastically increased just last month, and the only way of using all that extra ethanol is by putting more of it in every gallon of gas.

E-10 may be a mere annoyance in most automobiles, but it's turning out to be a huge PITA for users of small engines that only see infrequent use (i.e., lawn mowers, pressure washers, generators, chain saws, outboard boat motors, weed whackers, etc.). Ethanol absorbs moisture - After sitting in a gas tank for several months, it tends to form clumps of water. Result: Corrosion and engine stalling. The problem will get even worse after E-15 becomes commonplace.

[nuQ]

I still want to research this subject a little more, but due to the fact that my fiancee and I have 4 vehicles, a riding mower and weedwacker, all that gas tends to sit in all those tanks for extended periods. With the upcoming E-15 it will makes matters worse.

Is there an OTC additive that can be used at every fill-up? I believe some have mentioned Heet, or dry gas, but are those the best for this?

[Skibane]

The red-bottle HEET is almost pure Ethanol, so using it probably wouldn't help much for this particular problem...

There is a "Marine Ethanol Formula" version of STA-BIL fuel preservative that's supposed to be pretty good. It's sold at Pep Boys, right next to the regular formula. Haven't seen it for sale at Wal-Mart...

[nuQ]

Thanks Skibane,,,,the STA-BIL seems like the way to go. I will check to see if it's available at my local Pep Boys tomorrow.