Duel mounted OEM condenser fans.

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Infinitiguy19
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I was cleaning my Q's front bumper and under it when I notice that there is some room for a second OEM fan that might fit on the other side of the condenser. Could someone who has removed there front bumper tell me (us at the Q45 forum) if a second fan could indeed fit in there.

If so would duel fans help more or would it be a waste of space and weight?

I am no engineer, not even close but from reading some posts it seems the OEM Infiniti Q45's cooling system is far to small (Cost savings)?

Wiring them up OEM style would be stupid simple as all you need is a male and female connector and some soldering skills.

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elwesso
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I think the Q's cooling system is very adequate for most drivers... Notice that unless the AC is on, you usually dont have any other fans coming on...

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Infinitiguy19
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Well I will keep at this because it would be very cool to do.

I want to add two fans: One for the condenser and one for the transmission cooler where the Active Suspension cooler is located (On Q45a but mine is not, Thankfully?). I then plan to add a bigger power steering cooler for the hell of it right behind the transmission cooler.

Then many years down the line rebuild the engine if needed and add sodium filled valves, or the 1990-1992 Infiniti Q45 heads assuming its not illegal. Then add a super charger to make up for the added weight, But that would mean no nice plenum. :*(

Isn't there only one OEM auxiliary fan that can come one, The one in front of the condenser?

That would be some of my wishes for a perfect Q.

If only we can find Brabhams Q45 right.

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Skibane
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Slightly OT, 19, but I notice that your vehicle has the rare and very desirable "horn upgrade package" - Sweet! :dblthumb:

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Infinitiguy19
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Oh thats not my car I just found those pictures in one of the largest repositories of Q45 Knowledge.

But I do want to find a Road Runner or Jeepers creepers truck horn. Hell I saw a stop sign that was flat on the ground...
Last edited by Infinitiguy19 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tfitzs01
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There would potentially be enough room, but I think that there would be a loss of efficiency.

The issue is two fold... First, electricity would be needed for the additional cooling fan adding a strain onto the electrical system. Second, by adding the second cooling fan you restrict the free movement of air past the radiator. By adding a second fan, there would be increased plastic shroud components, fins, and other obstructions that the radiator would fight against.

I see absolutely no reason to tamper with the setup as it is originally. If anything a replacement of the stock radiator with a quality performance aftermarket seeing all the extras that you are wanting to add.

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Infinitiguy19
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I forgot to mention I want to change the OEM Thermo switch with one that will signal the fans at a much earlier temperature say 179*F.

After looking at a OEM Q45 condenser fan on Ebay it may not fit as planned. There is a part that hides behind the hood latch mount.

The Alternator would have to be replaced with a far better one, Of course. But how much strain could one or two fans add?
The Active Suspension fan requires 2.91667 amps. I = P / E (Power AKA Watts=35) E=12 (Volts) so I= 2.91667 amps. Thats not too much, I only wish I could find the power requirements for the OEM Q45 condenser fan.

I doubt there would be much restriction, I think Infiniti choose to use one fan rather than two to save money.

You couldn't be more correct about the radiator needing a upgrade but no mater the size of the radiator (At least one that would fit in a Q) The Q will overheat in bumper to bumper traffic. I remember reading one of Dennis's amusing posts about people in suits having higher expectations than those who buy the car because of its low price. Dennis's car can take 6-8 minutes till it over heats with his custom Griffin radiator.

I can find the post if needed.

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Lokim
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I was sitting in Seattle's wonderful stop-and-go I-5 traffic in 100* weather for nearly an hour w/ my A/C on full blast in my '94 and had no cooling system issues. If you're overheating something is wrong...

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Infinitiguy19
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Were you going by the interior temperature gauge? If so you should know it doesn't move till your engine reaches 220*F according to a NICO member I know.

I am not over heating but I like to think ahead before anything bad happens.

A VH(45DE) is a terrible thing to waste. :)

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tfitzs01
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Oklahoma City in the middle of Summer.... 106 degrees with sticky humidity + an A/C running full blast + stuck in traffic yields no issues with my Q. A proper mix of coolant and a little water wetter yields no problems. I think that what you are after is major overkill with some possible problems...

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Infinitiguy19
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Your probably right I just thought this would be beneficial since the Q has almost half the coolant capacity as compared to the Mercedes Benz equivalent of its day. I have been reading a lot of the old posts and I hope I can retain most of it.

Seriously though how are you guys not having problems with that weather, Are you reading the inside gauge??

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tfitzs01
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The capacity of the coolant would have little to do with efficiency of the vehicle.

Example: Two containers of water, one is 10 gallons, the other is twenty gallons, are brought to a boil and allowed to cool on their own. Which cools faster... the 10 gallon or the twenty? Thermodynamics 101 tells us that the 10 gallon container will cool faster.
Now let's take your concern with cooling capacity. In the 1990 Q45, the coolant capacity is 10 7/8 qts. For the 1990 Benz SL300 the capacity is 12.2 qts. It does take longer to heat up more fluid as in the Benz, but the Q45 would have an easier time in removing excess heat if both radiators were the same (LARGE GENERALIZATION due to other environmental factors).

So if you are having an issue with staying cool:
1) Check fluid levels and examine any hoses and the radiator for leaks
2) Change Radiator cap (and make sure that radiator top is free from debris)
3) Change thermostat and coolant with a backflush to remove any debris from clogged coolant ports in engine block.
4) examine fan clutch and water pump (replace both at the same time). After reaching normal operating temperature, shut the engine off and try to spin the fan with your hand. If it revolves freely more than 3/4 a turn then it is time to replace.
5) Remove Radiator and get it cleaned or replaced.
5) Check EGR Valve for any deposit debris from the plenum. This valve cools the engine by recirculating exhaust gases into the combustion chamber.
6) Temperature sensor faulty (rarely)

Yes, I do use the temp gauge on the dash, always have. It is a reliable piece of equipment that tells you three things. Too cold...too hot...just right. Act accordingly.

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Infinitiguy19
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Like I said I am no engineer but I don't mind being wrong either.

The 1990 Mercedes Benz(MB) SL300 (I wonder if there are people at that type of forum spell MB wrong) has a 6 cylinder engine and the Q45 has a 8 cylinder engine.

Trust me Dennis (Q45Tech) hate the interior gauge because its simply not accurate enough. I could pull many posts about the gauge being very inaccurate if needed.

I am not having cooling issues I just thought the cooling system could be improved upon.
Last edited by Infinitiguy19 on Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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elwesso
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Bottom line is 220°F while still technically overheating by Q standards is not UNSAFE to operate.. Most GM cars operate about that temp anyway!

You should be able to improve the efficiency somewhat by increasing the temperature it operates at. The thermal efficiency of any engine increases as maximum temperature increases.. However you might run into other issues which offset that like detonation and things of that nature.

Either way, Paul you have a consult that you can just watch if your concerned, and if it gets too hot for you then pull off and open the hood... :)

qship96
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Somehow your car has survived for SEVENTEEN YEARS with its factory designed cooling system......and now YOU want to re-engineer it?????? Seems highly illogical when you look at it.....just keep the coolant fresh, the condenser and radiator clean, the foam surrounds in place, and drive it!!!!! No need for so called "improvements"

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Infinitiguy19
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No your right I am sorry I thought I could improve upon the car in yet another way. I will keep learning, reading....

qship96
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Nothing to be sorry about,and your idea certainly would do no harm, maybe even be slightly beneficial under extreme operating conditions but why create things to spend time/money on when these old Q require soo much already just to maintain them as designed?
If proper upkeep and parts replacement works out to be $250-300 per month pro-rated {some months/years you spend more, some less} how much on top of that do you really want to spend on a depreciated old asset that may be totaled{written off by insurance company} by a simple fender bender......at some point of monthly outlay, the logic becomes questionable to put it into a 14-21 year old Q- as much as i still enjoy driving mine....

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Infinitiguy19
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tfitzs01 wrote:The capacity of the coolant would have little to do with efficiency of the vehicle.

Example: Two containers of water, one is 10 gallons, the other is twenty gallons, are brought to a boil and allowed to cool on their own. Which cools faster... the 10 gallon or the twenty? Thermodynamics 101 tells us that the 10 gallon container will cool faster.
Now let's take your concern with cooling capacity. In the 1990 Q45, the coolant capacity is 10 7/8 qts. For the 1990 Benz SL300 the capacity is 12.2 qts. It does take longer to heat up more fluid as in the Benz, but the Q45 would have an easier time in removing excess heat if both radiators were the same (LARGE GENERALIZATION due to other environmental factors).

So if you are having an issue with staying cool:
1) Check fluid levels and examine any hoses and the radiator for leaks
2) Change Radiator cap (and make sure that radiator top is free from debris)
3) Change thermostat and coolant with a backflush to remove any debris from clogged coolant ports in engine block.
4) examine fan clutch and water pump (replace both at the same time). After reaching normal operating temperature, shut the engine off and try to spin the fan with your hand. If it revolves freely more than 3/4 a turn then it is time to replace.
5) Remove Radiator and get it cleaned or replaced.
5) Check EGR Valve for any deposit debris from the plenum. This valve cools the engine by recirculating exhaust gases into the combustion chamber.
6) Temperature sensor faulty (rarely)

Yes, I do use the temp gauge on the dash, always have. It is a reliable piece of equipment that tells you three things. Too cold...too hot...just right. Act accordingly.

I am not really concerned with the amount to time the vehicle requires to warm up to operating temperature in this case 176*F. And anyways the Thermostat, Auxiliary Air Control valve (AAC) and Fast Idle Cam (FIC) are in charge of that.

But what has me confused is why the FGY33 (1997-2001) Infiniti Q45 got more cooling capacity and duel electric condenser fans. I mean cost cutting is everywhere but even the condenser was made bigger by about a inch to hold the fans. Jeez I think those engineers need to go back to school don't you?


Image
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1999-INF ... 058wt_1166

The FGY33 has a engine coolant capacity of 12-3/8 quarts VS the G50 of 10-7/8 quarts

The FGY33 had duel electronic condenser fans VS the G50's single condenser fan. Sadly the resonator pipe part of the air intake is partially in the way and removing it would change the entire intake system.

The FGY33 condenser size is: 30.90 X 19.50 X 3.90 VS the G50: 30.90 X 18.30 X 3.90. I assume to make sure the fans fit better.

Image
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Infiniti ... 840wt_1166

It looks like there maybe some room according to the marks left by the OEM fan, for another electric fan.

qship96 wrote:Nothing to be sorry about,and your idea certainly would do no harm, maybe even be slightly beneficial under extreme operating conditions but why create things to spend time/money on when these old Q require soo much already just to maintain them as designed?
If proper upkeep and parts replacement works out to be $250-300 per month pro-rated {some months/years you spend more, some less} how much on top of that do you really want to spend on a depreciated old asset that may be totaled{written off by insurance company} by a simple fender bender......at some point of monthly outlay, the logic becomes questionable to put it into a 14-21 year old Q- as much as i still enjoy driving mine....
Thinking of ways to better the Q is what keeps me going. I know what it costs to own the Q but spacing out and looking at what could be helps me cope with owning a Q and wanting to restore it.

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Infinitiguy19
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I hate making useless/unnecessary topics because I fear people will search and say I am an idiot, it may be true but I don't like to hear it. :)

Anyways I was wondering if there is a difference between fan speeds on a 1990-1996 Infiniti Q45. I know the 1994-1996 Q45's fans work at high and low ranges but when the 1994-1996 Q fan is on high is it working at the same RPM as the 1990-1993 Q fan which is a single speed? I do mean Auxiliary/condenser fan.

Q45tech wrote:The 93 was about as good as it got..........gold clock, map pockets on rear of front seats, 1st gear start on old geared transmission, R12 cooling with muliple speed condenser fan, and all of the 90-92 positive tweeks................few sold so rarer.
:)
94-vs-95-vs-96-t227638.html?hilit=condenser%20fan

elwesso wrote:http://www.iddl.vt.edu/TEST/te....html

Looking at that chart, and using HA-31 out of the 94 FSM, we see that the FSM specifies that we should be hovering around 190-250 kPa (or about 0.19-0.25 MPa). The table is in MPa (didnt find a convenient table for using english units, but oh well)..

According to the table, we should be hovering around -12C to about -5C.. Which turns out to be about 10F to about 23F... Again this is very quick math, no interpolating on the tables or anything..

Of course, this is the FLUID temperature inside the evaporator, we would have to use basic heat transfer to figure out what that results in as far as the actual surface temperature of the evaporator itself. Of course that also depends on the humidity of the incoming air...

One would also tend to focus on the evaporator but reading the last link shows proof that more of the COP and increasing the efficiency of the system is in the CONDENSER.. adding another giant fan in front of the condenser to help reduce that transient time?
weak-ac-on-start-up-1995-q45-t442044.ht ... nser%20fan

I know there are downsides to this such as added weight to a car and more load on the already stressed alternator but I think the benefits maybe worth it.

And for whats its worth it seems my condenser fan and clutch fan just gave up. Clutch fan is confirmed dead and I have to jump the condenser fan to see if it really dead or there is a problem with the thermo-switch.

Whats next Q?


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