Drove the car for about 10 minutes, going rear sump..

[craigztoyz]

I am pulling engine tonight, and adding a sump in rear and moving the pickup. I have a total of 4.75 quarts in this pan, small, but I thought big enough, NO. I was wrong. My accusump hit, and then needed it again, while it was reboosting, which killed it. I have a switch wired in from a chevy that kills it at low oil psi.From the oil hitting the crank it was all foamy. I do have a sheild, and baffles, but the pan is flat rear to sump.So it puddles back there under acceleration, and does not flow forward enough.

I Only got onto it a bit, and only through 2 gears, didnt even get hot, but oil lost pressure 2 times. Front pickup wont work for my needs now, so time to modify it tomorrow and have it up and out this weekend.

Past the oil scaring me problem, WOW the power, and yes Idle problems, but getting there. It was smoking at first, thought it was rich, not sure, but it cleared itself out after a minute or two. Once warmed up, it is great, tring to be a little easy on the new clutch, but not too easy. thanx to all for the great info, and hope the info in these posts helps future builders.

Craig

[Carl H]

odd that the front sump is an issue in the z chassis...but then again factory spec on oilpan capacity is almost 8 quarts...

[npez]

I am pulling engine tonight, and adding a sump in rear and moving the pickup. I have a total of 4.75 quarts in this pan, small, but I thought big enough, NO. I was wrong. My accusump hit, and then needed it again, while it was reboosting, which killed it. I have a switch wired in from a chevy that kills it at low oil psi.From the oil hitting the crank it was all foamy. I do have a sheild, and baffles, but the pan is flat rear to sump.So it puddles back there under acceleration, and does not flow forward enough.

I Only got onto it a bit, and only through 2 gears, didnt even get hot, but oil lost pressure 2 times. Front pickup wont work for my needs now, so time to modify it tomorrow and have it up and out this weekend.

Past the oil scaring me problem, WOW the power, and yes Idle problems, but getting there. It was smoking at first, thought it was rich, not sure, but it cleared itself out after a minute or two. Once warmed up, it is great, tring to be a little easy on the new clutch, but not too easy. thanx to all for the great info, and hope the info in these posts helps future builders.

Craig

That's bizzare. Is is puddling on the flat vertical or flat horizontal? If it's the flat vertical you may be able to move the pickup right by the vertical wall. Just a thought.... I'll advise if I have similar issues....

Nick.

[SuperHatch]

If the engine was overfilled with oil to the point that the crank is beating it to death, that will cause aeration which will in turn cause a loss of oil pressure.

[craigztoyz]

Nick, thanx, I have the pickup @ the wall, BUT I did not make this one big enough to need to cut the frame(holding more oil), so I think the problem is Quanitiy, but then there is a problem with it pooling @ the rear, and not flowing forward. Happened in 2nd through third run. Love my new shifter assy though.

It was pooling back at back, and I think with whatever level it got too, trying to flow forward, it draggd the crank down, foaming it.

Oh yeah, the drag helped to kill the pressure, but once I saw it was happening, I babbied it, and it is up and on its way out today. Also doing a few things inside. New bearings, and rechecking the crank pulley, although I am sure it is tight enough, I had plenty of pressure, just not after 7 or so seconds of pull.

thanx for help, Gotta say the sound is killer.

Craig

[npez]

odd that the front sump is an issue in the z chassis...but then again factory spec on oilpan capacity is almost 8 quarts...

Carl,

Factory is 5-7/8 quarts without oil filter or 6-3/8 with -just FYI. I'm very surprised as well, as Mark over at mazworx runs his drag VH45 with a front sump and hasn't had any issues. I'll see what mine does as it has an extra kickout (3/4-1 quart), will be coated on the inside, and should be very close if not a little more capacity than the factory setup.....

Nick.

[Mettler]

That seems pretty unusual, Qs don't suffer from oil starvation when you thrash them, so why should the factory sump have any different effect in your Z unless it's underfilled?

Or is the engine sitting at a slightly different angle along that axis? Is it leaning back a bit?

[npez]

That seems pretty unusual, Qs don't suffer from oil starvation when you thrash them, so why should the factory sump have any different effect in your Z unless it's underfilled?

Or is the engine sitting at a slightly different angle along that axis? Is it leaning back a bit?

Not to put words in Craig's mouth, but his isn't a "factory" sump - mine isn't either. To clear the steering rack on the Z, the rear part of the sump has to be made somewhat flatter (mine has a 1/8-1/4" drop from the rear to the vertical drop before going to where the pickup is) and I believe Craig's is almost completely flat with minimal if any drop. The engine is mounted level (our mounts are the same) with the trans bolted up (I've actually taken a level to the crankcase where the oilpan bolts into).

I still think that there may be something else at play though, as if the sump as modded is holding 4.75 quarts + a 2 quart accu-sump (mine is closer to 6) and the flat portion can only hold a 1/2 quart at best, I cannot see 4.25 quarts working their way "up" the crankcase no mater how many Gs are thrown at it. I'm not familiar with the accu-sump setup, but I'm wondering if it maybe "robbed" the motor of some oil when it pressurized?

Craig's oilpan doesn't require trimming the crossmember so the pickup had to get modded and it ends up in a slightly different place than the stock one due to clearance issues (this is where I would be looking for a possible problem). On mine it does, but at the expense of trimming the crossmember and re-welding the seam.

So to that end, on mine at least, I'm going to stick with the front sump and see if the slight design variation (and the internal coating) makes a difference. In a worse case scenario I will add another baffle going across the top of the vertical wall that will let the oil from the crankcase trickle through while hindering excessive splash-back during spirited acceleration.

just my $.02.

Thanks,Nick.

[Mettler]

Thanks Nick. I'm modifying my sump too (aluminium VH41DE sump), I've removed the intermediate step down halfway along it, in favour of a gradient to clear the steering rack and crossmember properly with the engine sitting lower... and have also been considering other mods to keep the oil where it's meant to be.

Am interested in seeing pics of what you come up with, I was just gonna go with a series of diagonal shelves that allow the oil into the pan, but make it difficult to slosh out.

[kingkilburn]

You guys might want to look into check valves in the oi pan. The ones I saw were for a 427 or something along those lines. It had a baffle about every 4'' with a large ball in a shaft that would only allow oil to go in one direction.

[npez]

Thanks Nick. I'm modifying my sump too (aluminium VH41DE sump), I've removed the intermediate step down halfway along it, in favour of a gradient to clear the steering rack and crossmember properly with the engine sitting lower... and have also been considering other mods to keep the oil where it's meant to be.

Am interested in seeing pics of what you come up with, I was just gonna go with a series of diagonal shelves that allow the oil into the pan, but make it difficult to slosh out.

That sounds pretty cool with the aluminum sump. It sounds like we took a similar approach except I pushed my vertical further back so I can use the stock pickup in the stock location.

I was originally thinking of a single baffle, but your idea sounds even better. I may use some inverted "U" shaped baffles 3-4 inches apart similar to what Nissan put at the top of the sump (where it's 3/4" - on the rear right side of the pan). kingkilburn, not sure if I'm ready to go as far as check valves just yet but I'll definitely look into it - that is a great idea!

When I pull out the pan again this week (I screwed up on where I placed the bung and I can't get a hose on it as the cross member is right behind it ), I will take it in to relocate it and also have the baffles welded up. Before putting it back in I'll take some pics of the inside for you and post them on my thread if you want to take a look. I'll also take pictures when I get it coated.

Thanks,Nick.

[Mettler]

Check it out:



Dashed red line is the step I cut out, and you can see my plan to add in a sloping down surface made from two pieces that V in the middle so the oil is drawn down the center like a channel.

Blue represents the idea for diagonal shelves at the back and front of the sump, allows oil to flow past into the bowl, but should serve to stop the bulk of the oil in the bowl from sloshing up past it under extreme acceleration or braking. I'm not as concerned about side sloshing.

The green line represents the factory 'baffle'... the shelf on pedestals with gaps around it & hole in the middle for the pickup. Pickup itself will sit in the factory position.

I've toyed with the idea of expanding the sump with more chambers and running trapdoors, but I really can't be bothered.

Thoughts?

[kingkilburn]

I think you need to go in this general direction:



Or go dry sump

Edit: I found a link for the check valves I was thinking of:

http://www.billetfab.com/pans.htm
Modified by kingkilburn at 11:15 PM 7/23/2008

[npez]

Check it out:



Dashed red line is the step I cut out, and you can see my plan to add in a sloping down surface made from two pieces that V in the middle so the oil is drawn down the center like a channel.

Blue represents the idea for diagonal shelves at the back and front of the sump, allows oil to flow past into the bowl, but should serve to stop the bulk of the oil in the bowl from sloshing up past it under extreme acceleration or braking. I'm not as concerned about side sloshing.

The green line represents the factory 'baffle'... the shelf on pedestals with gaps around it & hole in the middle for the pickup. Pickup itself will sit in the factory position.

I've toyed with the idea of expanding the sump with more chambers and running trapdoors, but I really can't be bothered.

Thoughts?

I think this will work pretty well. I don't remember my factory baffle being as high as your green line indicates though - but that may be different on the VH41 sump. I like the channel idea it'll help the oil "pool" and maybe move a little faster with gravity - I dont think I can do that with mine now that's it's already fabbed though. I think the "shelves" will work briliantly - that's what I originally was thinking in my original post, but I hadn't thought of putting one in the front like you have. If you don't mind, I may steal a part of your design with the front shelf and integrate our two ideas into one for my pan. Here's a quick diagram I put together - the factory horizontal baffle is not shown.

I think since the shelf ends up right over the bowl it may require a "notch" to clear the pickup tube - not sure if this is how it is on yours. A "trap door" could be added on the rear shelf pretty easily if it's moved back some, but I don't want any moving parts at the moment, so I will just mount with a "slit/gap" between it and my vertical.

Take a look and let me know what you think....



Thanks,Nick.

[npez]

I think you need to go in this general direction:



Or go dry sump

A trap door may be inevitable when I go into phase 2 not 100% certain until I see how this works though - but I've got to get through this phase first. I looked into dry sump, but that will get very complicated as I don't want to loose any accessories.

Craig, I know we've high-jacked your thread, but hopefully the discussion may give you some ideas

Nick.

[kingkilburn]

^ Custom serpentine set up for dry sump?

[craigztoyz]

Just reading through for first time in a day, wow lots of talk.

Metter, as Nick said, mine is not stock, I took off too much to make it clear easily, if I had the pan I sent Nick, wouldn't be a problem. The one I have here is less then 5 quarts, and all of it is at the very front, so oil could not get up there, without pooling at crank.

Bought a steel pan at machine shop today, huge sump, going dual sump as I type.

[craigztoyz]

Its a good Hyjack, productive.

The reason I had problems------ Moved the pickup too far forward on this one, and the sump too. tried to slide engine back 1.5 " and just shorten the pan. OK didnt work. Pan is completely flat rear till the sump, so it couldnt get to it, but knew it was only gonna stay in a week or so. Yes the accu did rob, and then I tried to add, but not sure if it was enough.Yes I left the stock baffle, or shat was left.

The horizontal baffle is not that high, as one pic showed. I like the check valve idea, but a trap door is easy, and works since the 60's.

I am making mine rear pickup today, leaving some of the front sump, I think, and going as big as i can out back. If I move the p/s, I may be able to regain my swaybar. If I build any more front sump, I will add channels for the oil, and not go so low.

[craigztoyz]

^ Custom serpentine set up for dry sump?

Not hard to do, especially with this crank pulley, but still would take up space to mount, and then there is the cost.

Looking into how to get pickup tube where I want it, easily, and still keeping it this low. I like it fitting under a stock hood. Looking for tube today to make pickup from.

[craigztoyz]

Well, got too many cars to build, and my son is coming back today from grandparents, giving me a week to work.

So, I put motor back in last night, with the small pan, just can't get on it. Problem is I already de-plumbed the accu. So I really am being easy on it.Other then that and a p/s drip, all good. Cutting up the exhaust a bit today to make it seal better.

But as my friends say, at least it is movable.