Drag/Track/AutoX ?'s

[float_6969]

I'm kinda stuck right now. I've been on the boards for quite some time now and I'm on my 4th 240 now. I (of course) searched for this before asking, but I didn't get any supporting info for what I'm wanting to know. What I want to know is, what would you look for in a motor (High hp, High tq, broad powerband, ect.) when planning for these situations? I'm mostly interested in autox and track, but I do some drag racing. I currently have a 90 base coupe with a stripped interior. The 12 valve has well over 200,000 miles on it now and isn't running so well. It needs replaced, but with what? That car won't get used on the street. 240's have ruined my driving record (actually my lead foot has..) But I don't know what route I should go. What motor would be best suited to my needs? (mostly auto-x) I do have a budget, and I don't need some 500hp monster. I'd love to hear your opinions AND SUPPORTING REASONS! Thanks!

[Former_240_s14]

In an auto-x if you ask me, I would look for a hg trq, high pwrbnd. At the track I am not too sure "I mean drag track". Personally, I would do a ka with minor mods...I love the torque and their pwrbnd. Hope this helps

[Onizuka]

if your car is going turbo it goes like this:

drag = really big *** turbo

AutoX = small quick spoolin sucka

[Former_240_s14]

if you do a small turbo though, you get bumped up a class

thats why i would do very small bolt ons, and try to stay in the as-stock class as you can get....better luck then

[skydragoness]

yeah the higher the classes you go up in autocross the tougher the competition. torque, high powerband sure helps a lot. especially torque.

[96_S14_SE]

You definitely dont want to stay in G-stock or GS, as you will get abused. I would drop some coin into it and run in STS where the mods could even you out. I really wouldnt think about DSP or SM either, and running in STX is kinda iffy as well as alot of the subarus end up in there.

Put it in solid numbers from my last event.GS (stock class 240's fall in)DSP (street prepaired 240's fall in)STS (street touring street tires, general class with alot of cars decent tuning allowed besides internals and others)STX (street touring extended, same as sts exapt larger rubber and brakes allowed)SM (um put it this way Jay, psi240 ran in here with his 11 sec KA-T)

best times:GS: 33.316 hehe stock classDSP: 34.509STS: 35.168* most cars with the highest lap timesSTX: 34.325SM: 34.833

Sooo see what I mean, and you would want a rather flat torque curve with a mid range hp curve a bit more important then the high. Most times it is left in second gear, so a high curve would leave you shifting out of every corner, or not fully into the power untill just before the brake zone.

BTW metal bushings (like adj tension rods upper / lower controll arms and the likes, anything with a spherical bearing taking place of a rubber / poly one), Modified intake manifold, or a turbo will send you into street mod. A wonderfull class full of race rubber, coilovers, swapped motors and all them lil go fast goodies

Edit: most cases the diff between 1 -2 is only a cpl of tenths, while alot of times its .5 of a second. Generally its very close timed racing, and hard to gain a simple .5.

[float_6969]

So if I do a motor swap, I'll get stuck in SM and have my *** handed to me, unless I've got some serious dough? I've been to one meet and 96_S14_SE, your right, I pretty much had my azz handed to me (I think I got 5th out of 7). That was on a COMPLETELY stock fully loaded 93 s13 w/Super HICAS, and some real crappy tires, and they did put me in GS. I guess I'm not so worried about winning as I am building the car that I want, but I also don't want to spend money on a car and get put into a class that I can't compete in. Do you think a 250hp-300hp CA with a good suspension (not coilovers) and brakes would be able to at least compete? Or should I swap my 12V to a 16V and do bolt ons? If I did go that route do they consider cams internal? What about ECU retunes? Can I change my differential gearing and not get screwed? I know it's a lot of ?'s so thanks for the info! The first meet of this season isn't for another couple of weeks, so I'll buy a book then, but I kinda need to start planning now. I found out that after I stripped my interior it was going to put me into a prepared class, so now I have to put it all back in. I don't want to make the same mistakes twice!

[WDRacing]

I'll never build or race a NA motor. NA is just far to slow for my tastes. I'd drop in a KA24DET, do some intake work and some head work.

What do you really want from this car. If you build a AutoX vehicle you'll get beat on a regular basis in any kind of drag scenerio. Especially if you opt for the NA route.

WD

[96_S14_SE]

WD I dont really know on that, jay psi240 was pretty decent in SM with a mild suspension (shock spring) and also was a decently fast KA at 11.9.

As for your questions though I checked out the unofficial sts rules again (caught something on camber plates being allowed I didnt know was true) and they can be found HERE.

According to this you may swap in a dohc engine as long as it is in its intirety. Basically states you cant pull some parts off of it and use hat to build up your motor, like the hybred hondas and the such, but you must use the entire unmodified assembly..

One thing that is good about sts is that it only allows the use of street tires (basically falken azenis are the best bet now). This allows you to learn the car more, and makes you work as hard as possible to get the most out of it. Once you have a full feeling of the car and the tires hold you back then would be a good time to go to R compound. I know you didnt ask about it but IIRC sts - stx are the only classes that are limited to a street tire with a plus 140 tread wear.

I personally think it would be a cheaper / and better route to go sts for a while. As you gain some time in the seat and learn you will become more competitive. I ran my last 5 events in novice but will switch to sts on the 6th. I judged my time vs the best sts time and I knoticed that over the past few events they have constantly gotten closer, thus this means I must be learning All the basic bolt ons could be done to the car, increasing the hp output, and it would be a blast none the less. I feel it may be better to start out lower and learn, eventually getting competitive, then to start out in a race car and take longer to learn what you could in a less capable car.

I know what you mean by its not important to win, as Im just out there for fun as well. If everytime you go out there you are dead last it may take a blow to your ego, and being in such a difficult class, it could be a lot harder / costly to catch up, thus making you give up... Like myself, I grannied it my first few events (and still do), and started out with a decent STS car, in novice hehe. I wanted to change this and that so that I would be faster, but found out this is wrong and every larger change I make takes time to learn from, thus not really helping, and I would have improved given the time anyway. Another thing is that it will take a few runs just to see what pressures to run in your tires for best performance, mine used to be 36f 38r (suspension was sloppy due to the subframe).

I placed my 4 of the 5 events in the middle and finally got a 4th place trophy. While not much, and not out there to win, being in fourth place one run then 5th made me go out and regain my place I shaved another .5 off the time and took 4th away for my final run. It was a nice feeling, and now I am ready (well have no choice) to move up mentaly. In this class I have a setup that should work nicely I just need to work on my skills. I added subframe spacers but it was needed and I feel much more confident with the car, well see on the 6th though.

As for a competitive SM car its hard to say. Jay had alot of power from the ka... I dont know how much he was using, as I dont know what his boost settings where. His suspension consisted of upgraded bars, tokico blues and prokits IIRC, and he may of had various sperical bearing parts but like I said I dont really know. But the basis of the suspension wasnt a coilover setup, and he placed 3rd iirc at his last in SM.

I was just reading how SM isnt that old (which I knew) and a very competitive SM could be made for 10k... SM cars are some of the fastest cars out their, not just becuase of the car but because of the seat time, well then again alot of experienced drivers also stay stock hehe (where the 240 is pretty out matched at times).

I dont know, I rambled ALOT it seems. My approach is to stay in STS, learn the car and if I want to mod it, do so in the class rules, like my next mods will be a r200v and a 5 speed which should help a bit, but wont alter the handling too much (I hope), but that is on pause for a few more events. If I feel Im ready for the SM class Ill add the turbo for more power, swap out to metal bushings, then coilovers, and finally a set of R compounds one day.

[WDRacing]

I use my cars for daily drivers aswell as race cars. So I prefer a drag setup that handles decent. Especially since my main hobby is drag and not autoX. If I were to enjoy autoX I would setup my car for that purpose only.

I do plan on using my GTR for autoX when I get back to the states. But it retains the ability to be an excellent drag car by simply swapping rims and tires.

WD

[float_6969]

96_s14_se, you have been a GREAT help. You've givin me a lot of the info that I was looking for. Although I'm dissapointed that installing a CA18DET seems out of the question right now, I can install it later after I get some seat time. I was told that camber plates weren't allowed, but it seems that they are, so that is good. I'm still confused as to whether or not cams would be legal in STS. Is that considered internal? What about lightened flywheels? Can I upgrade to a stronger cluth? Lastly, I already have VLSD on my car, it was the one that I pulled from my Super HICAS, and installed on this car, that should be legal shouldn't it? Thanks for all of your help and patience with my questions. I REALLY appreciate it!

[96_S14_SE]

The only real way you could stuff a CA18DET in their and still be in STS would be if the ca was from a s12 200sx, as they are in the same stock and prepaired catagory.... But you dont want to hear that hehe

I mean you could put a s13 200sx / 180sx engine in there un touched and not too many would really be the wiser if you said it was from a s12, specially if you just run local, but its not really sportsmanlike, and I wouldnt do it...

Then again one could always swap in a vg30e out of an s12 200sx hehe. As that "is allowed" and an 88' s12 engine would start you with 165 hp / 175 tq (best engine year, also is the same as an 87 300zx vg30e IIRC) for a pretty cheap pre CA engine possibly as cheap if not cheaper then a dohc.... Im pretty sure someone has done that, only in the harder vg30et varient... They seem to run a 16.5 in the quarter stock but with the s13's r200v's final drive of 4.08 vs the s12's low 3.7, I gathered from a spec site, it would speed things up a bit.

Hmm if I had cash and a dedicated s13 chassis I might try that one day for fun.. Right in line with a 67' 2000 roadster project I have planned.

Anyway:

Some things like the emissions crap I dont really follow. I mean I have a cat and everything else, but my egr is um broken... yeah (its still there just doesnt function, as I may have blockage in the vaccume line going to it), I dont have a second o2 sensor, and my HS header is well florida emissions legal (which has no emissions). They also dont state anything about electric fans in place of the mech fan, but I have done that as well.

Aftermarket cams would be considered internal, and not allowed AFAIK, but Im sorta 50/50 on the whole stock cam swap issue... I have 91 stock 240/248 cams in there and may swap out one for my s14 cam (read push the 248 over to the intake poor man style, and dump in the 232 in the exhaust, as i was reading about it and would be fun to try), for a better midrange curve with less peak hp though, and def less peak then a 248-248 (would need another exh cam anyway) but fatter mid and low end curve.... Thats the only thing Im non compliance with and as small as it is, it disturbs me....

As far as flywheels go I dont see anything stating you cant, or anything stating you can hehe... As I drive an automatic its not a big concern of mine till I finally swap it out... I think clutches are unrestricted, but again Im not 100%. You may want to find out for sure..

The r200v is allowed, you are correct. It was a factory option and it hasnt been modified in anyway, so its good.

I like sts as its a broad class allowing only 4 seaters, and not 2 seat based 4 seaters (na Z), as well as many other types of cars arent allowed... Kinda evens it out for us a bit (as cars like the miata and mr2 cant enter it), even if the max displacement is 3.1 liters. Its basically just what it says a street touring / street tuner class, thought up to pull some extra members in (they even throw in any cosmetic / rice mods are ok, to ease the minds of the ricers)...

Edit: you dont still have the hicas rack? OT but I was just reading on this regarding using it in a non hicas car for a little extra degrees of wheel movement... But from what it seems is a drift thing, to allow more rotation without rotating hehe.

[float_6969]

Well, I'm still up in the air on the motor swap. The CA18DET has 30 more hp than the KA24DE. That is a decent amount and I would be hard pressed to get that much hp out of the KA with bolt ons. I feel like I'm kinda getting screwed in the motor department, I know it's not all about hp, but 155hp isn't anything to get excited about. And at most, w/ I/H/E/ECU I'll be up to 175hp, and then I'm maxed out. What's the most hp a car would be putting down in STS? I feel pretty confident that with some money into the suspension, I could make up for the lacking hp, but with those bolt ons I'm over 1/2 to my motor swap. The only way to get more power out of the KA is cams, and either turbo, or compression, both of which will put me into SM. GRRRRRRRRR. Darn the rules! Maybe I just need a little more confidence in the capabilities of the car. I just hate to spend money on a motor, when it may get replaced later on down the line. I'd like to just work on the suspension first, but I don't think my motor is long for this world. I guess I've got 2 months to figure it out. I don't have to time to do anything to the motor until this semester is over anyway. As for the HICAS rack, yea, I still have everything. Actually I still have the whole car. I was toying with the idea of having the only HICAS equipped coupe in the US, but I'm very familiar with the system and it would be a HEADACHE to do it. It would take months, and it's not really worth it. It would be cool though. What were you trying to say about the rack though? You lost me. Anyway, thanks for the info, and I guess I'll just have to decied if my concience will bother me if I cheat (probabally, darnint) I don't think the local guys will know the difference, but it would still be cheating and I have issues with that. My debate continues.....

[PKer]

Sorry for bringing this up from the dead, but I'm a n00b after all so bear with me.I plan on swapping either a SR20DET or a KA24DE into my 69 Roadster; would I be able to run auto-x with it and if so any idea as to what class?

[crzycav86]

This was actually a good read for some of the new guys

Thanks for resurrecting it.

[jdmfreak]

I definately enjoyed this read.

[dr!ft]

Wow. Lot's of good information. Once I get a 240 (or other car, not sure yet) I really want to get into auto-X. From reading this post it seems like I will probably be trying for the STS class as the extent of my modifictions will probably only be i/h/e/other and a spring/strut suspension.

Ques: Does adding aftermarket tie-rods, links, bushings, etc bump you out of STS?