97 q45t, 97K; done at Grubbs InfinitiValues in brackets show "before" state.
========L=======R=====Frontcamber: -0.6 (-0.6) ; -0.5 (-0.6)caster: 5.9 (5.9) ; 7.0 (7.0)toe: 0.05" (0.02") ; 0.04" (0.04")
Rearcamber: -1.3 (-1.5) ; -1.2 (-1.2)toe: 0.06" (0.09") ; 0.09" (0.09")
thrust angle -0.03 (0.00)======================Caster is not adjustable as far as I understand, so it indicates that something worn or bent, right? Then they increased front cross camber. Why?Secondly, why rear camber couldn't get into specs? And thirdly, why did they creat a negative thrust angle, to compensate something? Please advise!
Does this look like alignment?
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Camber and caster are not adjustable [as it comes from the factory] on the front of a Q what you are seeing is technican errors in setting the alignment machine balance. Juggling the sensors.
What you really want to measure is what changes when you sit in the drivers seat........the car doesn't drive itself so unloaded camber caster measurements are meaningless.......same with toe.
What you really want to measure is what changes when you sit in the drivers seat........the car doesn't drive itself so unloaded camber caster measurements are meaningless.......same with toe.
Q45tech wrote:Camber and caster are not adjustable [as it comes from the factory] on the front of a Q what you are seeing is technican errors in setting the alignment machine balance. Juggling the sensors.
What you really want to measure is what changes when you sit in the drivers seat........the car doesn't drive itself so unloaded camber caster measurements are meaningless.......same with toe.
what about thrust angle?
-
autotech43
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:14 pm
From many years of dealership Nissan/Infiniti experience! I have seen a older very high mileage Q with some severe Negative front and rear camber issues. I don't know about EVERYTHING, I recall one vehicle that had both front upper links worn out, the lower control arms bushings were dry rotted and cracked, with rust showing on several of the metal parts of the inner bushing(from excessive movement over time). The left front steering knuckle link had excessive play at the upper bearing. Tension rods were new. Moving to the rear, the suspension cradle bushings were worn out, along with all the rubber parts of the rear link bushings were dry rotted and cracked. Also noticed the cam bolts where you adjust the rear camber and toe were rusted to a point of needed replacement. Engine fan blade was cracked, ABS pump was pouring brake fluid, had a severe vibration under accel with the center driveshaft support bearing collapsed causing improper angle. Valve covers were leaking and rear trans was leaking at the tailshaft housing(not the turbine sensor)! Front wheel bearings were also noisy. I can't recall if this vehicle came from the northern states (enviroment), sometimes things seem to get out of hand if not taken care of promptly!
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
And believe me few spend the monies necessary to RESTORE the suspension to as new or even close.Even I haven't changed every piece on mine but my rear subframe [$1,000 installed] was changed 2 years ago [at 222k]......we examined every rear suspension piece that had bushings and only changed the two $150 camber control arms as the rest seem ok. It would have cost another $1400 to change out all the arms, knuckles, and bushings..........ok yes I did change the rear bearings and hubs [another $600].
$1900 worth of work got the rear camber, toe, TA perfect.
The front is the same problem: simple normal changes like upper links and tension rods are just the start [and reocurring since they faily every 30k-60k].......all the other pieces need changing too, just at a longer 120-150k interval.
Many of the exotic front suspension pieces I changed at 110-130k are worn again and will need changing soon.
6 years and adding 150k [from 100k] does it every time......cost $22,800 in maintenance, repairs and replacements. [57% parts and 43% labor].Still on average each year cost around $2,500.......$32.5k in total since purchase..........sure there were some $6,000 and $7,000 years as failures stacked up.
It costs 5 times as much labor to rebuild a car as it did to build it in the first place. Same with parts you are paying 3 times what they cost the factory.
$1900 worth of work got the rear camber, toe, TA perfect.
The front is the same problem: simple normal changes like upper links and tension rods are just the start [and reocurring since they faily every 30k-60k].......all the other pieces need changing too, just at a longer 120-150k interval.
Many of the exotic front suspension pieces I changed at 110-130k are worn again and will need changing soon.
6 years and adding 150k [from 100k] does it every time......cost $22,800 in maintenance, repairs and replacements. [57% parts and 43% labor].Still on average each year cost around $2,500.......$32.5k in total since purchase..........sure there were some $6,000 and $7,000 years as failures stacked up.
It costs 5 times as much labor to rebuild a car as it did to build it in the first place. Same with parts you are paying 3 times what they cost the factory.
well, I finally got an itemized description from the dealer. $4,800 for the suspension and another 4,800 for other repairs. Looks like 4800 was the number of the day.
The reason this makes me crack up is they just had the car about 4 weeks ago (maybe 6) to replace the A/C and rehab the brakes. At that time I was told everything was fine.
It's amazing what a difference a few weeks can make. . .
So, I'm faxing joe my parts list on the suspension.How difficult is it to change those parts (Virtually all) on a Q?
I've done suspension work on other cars, mostly american and german but I've never touched the Q's suspension.
I'm not going to have it done at the dealer, now that the car has over 200K I'm just not willing to sink a ton of $$$ into it. But if I can get the parts for the right price, I'll be willing to change them myself cause I won't feel bad about breaking anything now.
I could always use a couple of days at T3 but since I didn't renew my braves tix this season I'm not over there often enough.
I've got another car I drive around town, so I can afford to leave it up on stands for a few weekends.
Any help/ideas appreciated!
The reason this makes me crack up is they just had the car about 4 weeks ago (maybe 6) to replace the A/C and rehab the brakes. At that time I was told everything was fine.
It's amazing what a difference a few weeks can make. . .
So, I'm faxing joe my parts list on the suspension.How difficult is it to change those parts (Virtually all) on a Q?
I've done suspension work on other cars, mostly american and german but I've never touched the Q's suspension.
I'm not going to have it done at the dealer, now that the car has over 200K I'm just not willing to sink a ton of $$$ into it. But if I can get the parts for the right price, I'll be willing to change them myself cause I won't feel bad about breaking anything now.
I could always use a couple of days at T3 but since I didn't renew my braves tix this season I'm not over there often enough.
I've got another car I drive around town, so I can afford to leave it up on stands for a few weekends.
Any help/ideas appreciated!
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Obviously pressing in the bearings/hubs are the hard parts...kingpin bearings.
Usually the passenger side get much more wear since the edge of the road is rougher.You might be lucky and find a 94-96 Q in the junkyard with low miles and buy the whole rear end [subframe and everything including the diff] for $500-$700.
Usually the passenger side get much more wear since the edge of the road is rougher.You might be lucky and find a 94-96 Q in the junkyard with low miles and buy the whole rear end [subframe and everything including the diff] for $500-$700.
The ignorance of the dealer, that's what made me angry.They "did" alignment and did not tell me what is the reason it's not in the specs. Like I'm supposed to accept it as it is. I wanna know why can't it be aligned and what should be replaced. Tension rods were replaced at 60K (now is 97K)
So, Dennis, what about thrust angle? The same story, just sensors' play? Should I ask for refund for this kind of "alignment"?
So, Dennis, what about thrust angle? The same story, just sensors' play? Should I ask for refund for this kind of "alignment"?
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
The factory provides a less than lethal range to allow for bending and wear.............and some error in assembly......parts variations do stackup. The range is there so that you can't enforce the warranty.
You should see some bad thrust angles like 0.5 degrees.........+-.0.00-0.2 is acceptable.
Guess you missed the point what does static [sitting on an alignment machine] have to do with anything, what matters is what is the alignment rolling down the road [and accelerating and stopping] and turning..... with your and passenger weight in car.
The factory then reverse engineers some numbers [for publication] that work well when all the parts are brand new, but what is the corrrect number when parts are sloppy, bent, and used.
The alignment numbers only apply to the oem tires supplied with the car brand new. Which is when you get an alignment to build a reference file to see the changes.
You should see some bad thrust angles like 0.5 degrees.........+-.0.00-0.2 is acceptable.
Guess you missed the point what does static [sitting on an alignment machine] have to do with anything, what matters is what is the alignment rolling down the road [and accelerating and stopping] and turning..... with your and passenger weight in car.
The factory then reverse engineers some numbers [for publication] that work well when all the parts are brand new, but what is the corrrect number when parts are sloppy, bent, and used.
The alignment numbers only apply to the oem tires supplied with the car brand new. Which is when you get an alignment to build a reference file to see the changes.