Does Race matter in the United States of America?

[Cali 2 Balti G]

Why or why not? Lets have a constructive discussion based on fact. Opinions are fine - but state it is your opinion vs a fact. A fact is generally something that can be easily verified. I say "generally" because i can think of some exceptions concerning verifiability.

I worded the question specifically as to not lead to a predetermined answer - like a lot of the current threads.

I welcome anyone to respond to this thread with their Position. Followed by supporting evidence - using where possible verifiable information - like wealth, income, education, health, etc. We should be able to agree on a set of indicators as evidence.

I will post mine as well then we can start a discussion.

So please chime in.

[Cold_Zero]

Good topic and very timely!

[joker350gt]

It only matters to those who are ignorant or uneducated.

If I walk in to a room and it’s me (Latino), a black guy, a white guy, an Asian, and an Arab and I say looks there’s Don king, Freddie Prince, Harold and Kumar, then I am very IGNORENT.

But if I walk in there and just see people then no harm done cus I know when I walk in they all think "look its George Lopez".

It works both ways.

To most people it doesn’t matter but there are always the ones that make it the biggest Issue ever to them.

IE Aryan Nation and there hate for Obama.

Omaba is black but that don't mean anything at all now does it? No.

[smockers83]

Does race matter in regards to what? It's hard to determine if race truly matters based on fact because a lot of facts are based on opinions and data created based on opinions. What sort of facts are we to use to determine if race matters?

Income? If income is determined as a fact as to whether race really matters, then we also have to look at why that fact comes about. Is it because of the opinions of other people/races that determine that races get paid differently?

The same can be extended to all categories. Take education for instance. Are certain races really held down in education or is it the race's drive for education is weak? If they are held down, it is because of the opinions of other people even though it is a fact. But if a race's drive for education is weak, then race does matter because they make it matter to them, albeit in a bad way.

So to base an argument of race on facts can be very difficult. Facts may be present, but how is it that those facts came about?

I will say this though. I've done modeling and research on native-born and foreign-born people in the US and their incomes. Native-born incomes are significantly higher than those who are foreign-born and the gap is growing. I didn't look into specific races but I think it can be said that many foreign-born people coming into this country within the past 20, 30 years have not been white, which makes up the majority of the native-born population.

[Cali 2 Balti G]

Does race matter in regards to what? It's hard to determine if race truly matters based on fact because a lot of facts are based on opinions and data created based on opinions. What sort of facts are we to use to determine if race matters?

Income? If income is determined as a fact as to whether race really matters, then we also have to look at why that fact comes about. Is it because of the opinions of other people/races that determine that races get paid differently?

The same can be extended to all categories. Take education for instance. Are certain races really held down in education or is it the race's drive for education is weak? If they are held down, it is because of the opinions of other people even though it is a fact. But if a race's drive for education is weak, then race does matter because they make it matter to them, albeit in a bad way.

So to base an argument of race on facts can be very difficult. Facts may be present, but how is it that those facts came about?

I will say this though. I've done modeling and research on native-born and foreign-born people in the US and their incomes. Native-born incomes are significantly higher than those who are foreign-born and the gap is growing. I didn't look into specific races but I think it can be said that many foreign-born people coming into this country within the past 20, 30 years have not been white, which makes up the majority of the native-born population.

If I were to narrow the focus - i would say - Does race matter in the context of the current President?

[WDRacing]

Statistically race does matter. Whether we're referring to crime or education, race does matter.

Can't say the white man is keeping anyone down anymore...Get a job, go to school, become POTUS.

Whats worse the race profiling? How about people that perpetuate racial profiles themselves. Don't want the cops to loom at you...pull your pants up. White/black/yellow...I don't care, stupid is stupid and I'm gonna call it every time.

[szh]

Don't want the cops to loom at you...pull your pants up. White/black/yellow...I don't care, stupid is stupid and I'm gonna call it every time.

Yes, indeed.

Z

[Cold_Zero]

Cali 2 Balti G,I guess to the high school students in Indianapolis it does matter. I was watching the local late night news last night and they interviewed high school students from one of our intercity schools. They asked them what the Inauguration of Obama means to them. It was interesting to hear two of the respondents. One said, "Now that Barack Obama is President, I feel we can be Doctors and Lawyers now." The other said, "This country is no longer a White America. Its all mixed up, its a melting pot."

To be honest, I was bit let down. The use of Us and Them in their language is really a telling sign that racism is not finished/dead in this country. Had they said, because of this Inauguration I feel like anyone regardless of race, gender or <fill in the blank> is proof that anyone can achieve the highest leadership position in this country, I would have felt a whole lot better about their perspective.

Again, I have brought this up before in another thread. When Tony Dungy won the Super Bowl as the head coach of the Indianapolis Colts, he was the first Black NFL head coach to do so. We here in Indianapolis were proud of our coach, not because of his race/ethnicity. No, we were proud of our coach because of what he stood for as a coach and for what he has accomplished. He has been a player, a coach, an innovator to the game, a successful author and coached Hall of Fame bound players. But this isn't just the half of what he has done. He has been a well know philanthropist, championing the causes of disadvantaged kids in our community and in Tampa Bay (specifically) and doing something about the problems that they face. He has been a mentor not only to disadvantaged kids, but to struggling young NFL players that get off on the wrong path.

His faith has been very important to him and has always been put forward in everything that he has done. His creed to not only win, but win the right way has spoken volumes to what the Indianapolis Colts Organization has stood for as an organization. He has not waivered in proclaiming his faith or walking the walk. We were tickled to death during the celebration after the AFC Championship game and the Super Bowl, that the emphasis of his thanks and praises was not focused on himself but on others and God. I remember taking my nephew to go see a movie this fall and as we were walking into the movie theater, the Dungy family was walking out. There were a whole gaggle of family members with him and we walked by (trying to respectful of his privacy) turned around as we went in and I told my five year old nephew, there is a great man. Yet, when Tony Dungy became the first Black NFL Coach to win the Super Bowl, the only time that it was really brought up was when ESPN and a few news sources realized that between the two coaches in the Super Bowl, Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy, the next coach that would win the game would be the first Black NLF Coach to win the Super Bowl. But for us, it was about much more than just race. To be honest, it was more about vindication. Bud

[marlin29311]

Race does matter - it's almost built into the system.

There is the NAACP - where is the white equivilant?

Where is affirmative action for whites?

Where are scholarship funds specificially for whites?

Where is the KKK for blacks?

Why do compaines hire employees in diverse groups?

Race is built into our current system, and until programs and groups such as these are removed from our country, there will be race issues amoung the US citizens. While everyone likes to think that we don't have race issues amoung us, we really do. Mainstream culture is dominated by blacks and african-americans. The financial systems and government are dominated by whites. It's just a never ending battle...

[OriginalWheelman]

In Buffalo we have a radio station called "WBLK" They exclusively play music by black artists, and on Sundays have Blacks preacher on. Some friends from my school did a test. We called, in our best proper English and requested songs they would play, and songs by Eminem. Not one of our requests were heeded. When we had our black friend call and request songs, speaking in broken ghetto slang, his requests were put on the air almost every time. If I opened a radio station named "WHIT" and refused to play music for black requestors, or by black artists, I'd be strung up in the city square.

Furthermore, I'm sick of ignorant black racists treating me like I'm part of the problem. My family was involved in the civil rights movement, and HEAVILY participated int he underground railroad. Despite my family history, and my personal beliefs, I'm labeled a racist by blacks if I don't like their life style. I must have a problem with their race, not that fact that I could smell them before I could see them, and they were shooting in the general direction of my house last night, while they were keeping me up partying until 5:30 AM.

[Eikon]

I'd like to say race does not matter.

Here was my observation of this issue being played out with the election recently.

The whole process from Obama declaring his running, to his nomination, through the campaign and right up to the day before the election... EVERYBODY said that race was not an issue. The media talked about it a little bit... not much though. Really the only mention was that it was a good sign that times had a changed to allow a man with African American background to make a successful run and not be defeated due to his race.

BUT... on election day... everything changed. All I heard that whole day was Race. 95% of the people who got face time to talk about the election were African American and all they talked about was "their" great victory! And that's fine.. I'm not blaming them. It wasn't anti-white or anti-other minority.. it was "pro" for them. It was the media's choice in who to put on TV anyhow.. So I'm not pointing any fingers... but it was evidence that race is still a big part of our society when emotions run high and we get past the status quo.

So the whole campaign everyone said it wasn't about race, but then all of sudden that's all it was about.

So what is my take... It's popular in our society to say it's not about race. We like to pretend that we've grown up and matured as a country and we've gotten over those differences. But in the end.. Race still matters. When emotions run high.. we still play the race card (pro or con).

But, we're getting there. We are definitely making progress.

Clearly at no previous time in our history would we have elected a man with an african american background and a middle eastern sounding name to the Presidency. We have definitely made strides!

[HashiriyaS14]

Like almost everything else, it's relative.

To the black family who buys a home in a worse neighborhood because their bigoted real estate agent "steers" them away from a better one, yes, it matters.

On the contrary, you'd have my friend Will, who happens to be black. He went to Cornell, got A's, is brilliant, but doesn't have a decent job. By his own admission, it isn't because he's black, it's just because he lacks the self-confidence to go out there and get what he wants. He's 27 and lives at home, but could easily be making $150k/yr somewhere. Race has zip to do with it.

Depends on one's personal situation.

If the litmus test is: "If it still matters for ONE person, then it still matters in America", then yes, it plainly still matters. So long as there are bigots out there, it'll matter.

Whether or not that entitles people to use it as an excuse is subjective, depending on the person, the situation, and the excuse.

[breadbox]

You asked does Race matter?

Now when talking some people I notice that the word "Race" doesn't always mean skin color.

I feel it will always matter because the difference exists. Domestic vs. Import, Rich vs. Poor, White vs. Minorities, and so on.

We all have comfort zones and it is hard to be open and accepting when we feel so out of place. I am a white male Duel citizen of a european country and I go to a HBCU(Historically Black Colleges and Universities) and it matters to some people. I am so laidback that nothing bothers me. My teachers don't call my name for the roll because they can easily see I am present. I am "whiteboy" in school.

I also see and am aware of racism inherent in the system that most people don't think about.

Examples:Madatory minimum sentencing on simple possession of crack cocaine and Marijuana.

No Child Left Behind act hurts more than it helps especially when considering how much our school system fails our children already and on top of that requiring an unprecedented and exceedingly high passrate.

Insurance is bs for most people.

So I would say yes as long as the USA exists racism will too.Also as long as Organized Religion exists hatred will be propagated to the masses.

So to answer the original question, does race matter? Not to me.

[OriginalWheelman]

I also see and am aware of racism inherent in the system that most people don't think about.

Examples:Madatory minimum sentencing on simple possession of crack cocaine and Marijuana.

No Child Left Behind act hurts more than it helps especially when considering how much our school system fails our children already and on top of that requiring an unprecedented and exceedingly high passrate.

Insurance is bs for most people.

How the hell are any of these related to race?

[marlin29311]

Insurance is bs for most people.

Care to elaborate?

[breadbox]

Should I have said Health Insurance is BS?

I guess am more pissed at who and how insurance is ran.

Elaboration: Most people I know don't have it through work or can't afford good/any coverage.
Modified by breadbox at 1:35 PM 1/21/2009

[OriginalWheelman]

Should I have said Health Insurance is BS?

Too be honest, I always wondered how this industry even exists. They're always going to pay out, so for them to make money, they have to be taking in more than they pay out. So the try to screw everyone they can out of payment, and charge as much as they can get away with. I pay my medical fees out of pocket. I have major illness insurance, but I pay for my doctor appointment's and meds, it's cheaper. But I repeat, what the hell does this have to do with race?

[breadbox]

Insurance is one industry driven by race. Statistically speaking certain races are at a higher chance to get one illness than another. Everything matters in insurance. Age, Personal Habits, Genetics based on Race, Income... or do you think everyone gets the same shake from insurance?

The police department in my city got in trouble because the entrance exam had too many racially biased math problems. 3rd graders passed the test at a 70% passrate. a certain % of "Minorities" failed the test, enough that the ratio passrate of whites to other wasn't achieved, it has to be 80/20.

[marlin29311]

Insurance is one industry driven by race. Statistically speaking certain races are at a higher chance to get one illness than another. Everything matters in insurance. Age, Personal Habits, Genetics based on Race, Income... or do you think everyone gets the same shake from insurance?

Are you talking about health insurance, or property and casualty?

I can guarantee that there is no race issues in p&c....i dunno about health, but I would venture to say that it doesn't exist there, simply EEO laws and what not...

There is sexism and age discrimination, but no race...

[Cold_Zero]

Also as long as Organized Religion exists hatred will be propagated to the masses.

I am sorry that you have such a low view of Organized Religion. I am always struck by the examples in history and in our current society that prove this statement wrong. Whether it is Satveer Singh that sits a few cubes down from mine at work, who is a Sikh and would do anything to help one of God’s creatures in need, the Amish families who after their children were terrorized and executed in a school in Pennsylvania, came to comfort the Roberts family (gun-man) with food, kind words and offers of help, or the numerous charities (many of them religious) that come to New Orleans to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina and rebuild the city.

[breadbox]

Can we define RACE real quick.

Are we saying RACE=skin color?

Or RACE =a people

Is Jewish a race? Some say its a religion, some say both.

Is there a difference between African-American and Black? There is to me, you are african-american if you have an african parent and are american. If you have two american parents you are not African.

Also there seems to be some dispute between Nationality and Ethnicity.

[marlin29311]

I think the OP intended this to be about the color of skin...

[OriginalWheelman]

The police department in my city got in trouble because the entrance exam had too many racially biased math problems. 3rd graders passed the test at a 70% passrate. a certain % of "Minorities" failed the test, enough that the ratio passrate of whites to other wasn't achieved, it has to be 80/20.

Racially biased math problems? That is the biggest crock of **** I have ever heard. Race has NOTHING to do with intelligence. What the screw man seriously, how would you even rig a test like that? This smells like bull**** to me.

[breadbox]

I am sorry that you have such a low view of Organized Religion.

Key word there is organized. I have always had the greatest respect for Quakers and Amish. I believe if a religion doesn't adopt pacifism then it is just another form of government.

The most vicious things in history were done in the name of God. Christian principles are great, Christian who hate not so much. When you teach your kids how to think they are doomed. If you teach them how to learn they save themselves.

[breadbox]

Racially biased math problems? That is the biggest crock of **** I have ever heard. Race has NOTHING to do with intelligence. What the screw man seriously, how would you even rig a test like that? This smells like bull**** to me.

That was just an example of Racism inherent in the system. Why is there even a ratio requirement? OH ya I forgot affirmative action.

Not my city but same thing-ish next to me as well.

The backgroundNearly 150 Chesapeake police officers took lieutenant or sergeant exams in October. The 31 who scored high enough to move forward in the promotion process included no women and no blacks. The process was suspended and a consultant was hired.

The latestChesapeake won’t toss out the exam results. The top 31 test-takers will remain in the running for advancement within the department. Others, however, may join them. The review is still under way.

One reactionThe city’s Fraternal Order of Police and Coalition of Police say the tests were fair. Their attorney, Michael Imprevento, said he is not satisfied with the city’s latest step: “The city is clearly discriminating against people on the basis of race, no question about it.”

VIRGINIA BEACH — The city has reached a settlement with the U.S. Justice Department to resolve allegations that it discriminated against black and Hispanic police recruits.

Under a consent decree filed Monday in federal court in Norfolk, the city will change the way it scores the police entrance exam.

[OriginalWheelman]

That was just an example of Racism inherent in the system. Why is there even a ratio requirement? OH ya I forgot affirmative action.

Not my city but same thing-ish next to me as well.

The backgroundNearly 150 Chesapeake police officers took lieutenant or sergeant exams in October. The 31 who scored high enough to move forward in the promotion process included no women and no blacks. The process was suspended and a consultant was hired.

The latestChesapeake won’t toss out the exam results. The top 31 test-takers will remain in the running for advancement within the department. Others, however, may join them. The review is still under way.

One reactionThe city’s Fraternal Order of Police and Coalition of Police say the tests were fair. Their attorney, Michael Imprevento, said he is not satisfied with the city’s latest step: “The city is clearly discriminating against people on the basis of race, no question about it.”

VIRGINIA BEACH — The city has reached a settlement with the U.S. Justice Department to resolve allegations that it discriminated against black and Hispanic police recruits.

Under a consent decree filed Monday in federal court in Norfolk, the city will change the way it scores the police entrance exam.

This is bull****. These people put race above qualifications. Racism at work!

*I've been looking into this, and the Justice Department was apparently dragged into it by the NAACP because the %s of minority population to % of minority cops was not close enough. Seriously? Then the ONLY thing the Justice Department could find that had anything to do with it was the Math test. This is a glaring failure of our government. If you can't pass a math test, too screwing bad. I would like to note that the Virginia Beach Police were never convicted of any wrong doing.
Modified by OriginalWheelman at 11:26 AM 1/21/2009

[Cold_Zero]

Key word there is organized. I have always had the greatest respect for Quakers and Amish. I believe if a religion doesn't adopt pacifism then it is just another form of government.

Even though the Quakers, Amish and Mennonites may seem unstructured, no matter whether they like it or not, they are all part of Organized Religion, through the branch of Christianity.

Quote »The most vicious things in history were done in the name of God. [/quote]

Yet in the 20th Century most of the greatest acts of Genocide and Atrocities have been committed in the name of Secular Humanism. Mainly by Atheistic socialistic/communist states. Quote »Christian principles are great, Christian who hate not so much. When you teach your kids how to think they are doomed. If you teach them how to learn they save themselves. [/quote]Isn’t teaching your children how to think, the process which enables kids to think for themselves, the point of education? I would propose that if we didn’t love our kids, we would neglect them by not teaching them how to think. I wouldn’t think they are inherently doomed because you taught religion to them at an early age, I think that is a ridiculous assertion. I guess this is where you and I disagree on things. But with what you have given me, I can peg your views to a few organized (albeit non Major) religious and philosophical schools. But the interest of not pushing this discussion into a full blown religious debate, I will just leave it there.

[breadbox]

I am aware of ties to Christianity, these are what I meant by good Christian principles.

Why can't we all just get along? I hope no one got in a mood because of my posts. I just love debating.

The think/learn was my attempt at Give a man a fish he can eat for a day, teach a man to fish he can stuff his own piehole with tuna after he catches it.

[Cold_Zero]

No worries brother. We can talk all day long. It is what makes our country great. We can talk about things we disagree with, with out launching a war.bud

[smockers83]

Statistically speaking certain races are at a higher chance to get one illness than another.

So you're going to argue with statistics and the way the human body works but blame it on the insurance companies?