edited cause the more i think about it the dumber it sounds.
i had blues on the Q with stock springs for about 1 1/2 years, recently switched the rear to eibachs and the blues seemed really weak, but not leaking yet. can excessive toe in cause this? seems like the shocks should last longer.
Modified by sultan at 4:42 PM 12/10/2004
Modified by sultan at 4:42 PM 12/10/2004
does a bad alignment wear shocks out faster?
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: does a bad alignment wear shocks out faster? (sultan)
Eibachs on rear.........can eat the Tokicios or oem shocks up at a double rate......they begin to feel soft by 15,000-25,000 miles!
I usually change mine every 3-4 years [~~60k] as the limit.
With 40k on my 4th set of Rear Blues it is geting time to order some replacements just to have on hand for Summer.
It's a never ending battle...........shame there are no easy fit adjustables which might double the rebound life a click once/twice a year. Good to go.
It's cold most places so the shocks should feel stiffer [function of fluid temperature].
Most people forget shocks use to be changed every 24,000 miles the technology hasn't improved much in 20 years in the bottom of the brand ........make em cheaper.
Why most Q are wallowing uncontrollable monsters in emergencies -- lack of frequent shock replacements!
You can't imagine how bad most of our Q customers cars are! Shocks are on the bottom of the list since they need $4,000 in other work.
When I am on the road I steer well clear and won't get within 4 cars 200 feet of an old Q [90-96] I know the probabilities are high that it is an accident waiting to happen...........they just barrel along ignorant of what could happen in an emergency situation.l Hop lanes sideways.
Unless new rubber bushings all around----- every 6 month alignments [fixing the side to side errors from warped bent shock tower, caster, toe slop from tie rods [inner and outer].
Everything must be equal with 0.25 degrees [caster camber] side to side and toe must be perfect. Thrust angle 0.00 degeees or rear steer.
Tire concentricity and belt shifts lead to tire differential steer..........few front tires can hold up to the Q without developing weird self steer habits.
I usually change mine every 3-4 years [~~60k] as the limit.
With 40k on my 4th set of Rear Blues it is geting time to order some replacements just to have on hand for Summer.
It's a never ending battle...........shame there are no easy fit adjustables which might double the rebound life a click once/twice a year. Good to go.
It's cold most places so the shocks should feel stiffer [function of fluid temperature].
Most people forget shocks use to be changed every 24,000 miles the technology hasn't improved much in 20 years in the bottom of the brand ........make em cheaper.
Why most Q are wallowing uncontrollable monsters in emergencies -- lack of frequent shock replacements!
You can't imagine how bad most of our Q customers cars are! Shocks are on the bottom of the list since they need $4,000 in other work.
When I am on the road I steer well clear and won't get within 4 cars 200 feet of an old Q [90-96] I know the probabilities are high that it is an accident waiting to happen...........they just barrel along ignorant of what could happen in an emergency situation.l Hop lanes sideways.
Unless new rubber bushings all around----- every 6 month alignments [fixing the side to side errors from warped bent shock tower, caster, toe slop from tie rods [inner and outer].
Everything must be equal with 0.25 degrees [caster camber] side to side and toe must be perfect. Thrust angle 0.00 degeees or rear steer.
Tire concentricity and belt shifts lead to tire differential steer..........few front tires can hold up to the Q without developing weird self steer habits.
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: does a bad alignment wear shocks out faster? (Q45tech)
Some how I got into an offset time situation - shock age <10k front oem and greater than 30k rear BLUES aging.....currently almost wish I had never went to Eibachs but then the 20mm rear bar would be too small [as the 125>180 lb/in progressive rear spring stiffness would need a 24 mm rear bar [120 lb/in instead of 40 with 20mm hollow] with oem springs to equalize [ouch over bumps/bad roads] .....cheaper/easier to just buy new REAR shocks frequently! Than to go thru all the previous redesign that I tried years ago............what's a few hundred every few years. Compared to an accident.
Gotta learn what progressive rear springs do in an emergency! The snap power on over steer must be experienced to learn to control......you must learn to feather [steer with] the throttle and never NEVER use brakes in a curve.
Gotta learn what progressive rear springs do in an emergency! The snap power on over steer must be experienced to learn to control......you must learn to feather [steer with] the throttle and never NEVER use brakes in a curve.
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Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: does a bad alignment wear shocks out faster? (Q45tech)
Rear tires are CRITICAL when you reduce the traction via stiffer rear springs and bars.........sideways stickson must be improved with softer compounds or wider tread patch..............trying 400 front 300 rear treadwear now ---------but 235/60/15 all round is better [Pilot H4]......why oem on performance car have wider rear tires as they approach closer to neutrality in roll stiffness ratio front to rear.
Changing springs is a BIG BIG STEP! with lots of expensive ramifications to other components. A rear sway bar is easier and less expensive!
Changing springs is a BIG BIG STEP! with lots of expensive ramifications to other components. A rear sway bar is easier and less expensive!
but should blues with stock springs feel soft after ~15,000 miles?
i only put the eibachs on the rear two weeks ago. i've had the eibachs before, but sold the eibachs to greg and switched to brand new blues and stockers. now switching back to eibachs because the handling (perceived?) is a lot better.
i may end up trying to get the jic coilovers even though the dampers aren't adjustable, rather than get more blues.
i only put the eibachs on the rear two weeks ago. i've had the eibachs before, but sold the eibachs to greg and switched to brand new blues and stockers. now switching back to eibachs because the handling (perceived?) is a lot better.
i may end up trying to get the jic coilovers even though the dampers aren't adjustable, rather than get more blues.
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Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: (sultan)
All shocks progressively wear out from day one by getting softer and softer in rebound [expansion resistance] which is 2.5> 2.0 > 1.5> 1.0 times stiffer than compression.
Unfortunately this is harder to test than just the feel of compressing the shock as it it time velocity dependent.
Shocks rarely fail early in compression because this just slows the springs compression vs. rebound where all the compressed spring forces are slowed by the shock.
Always think opposite side in rebound to find the culprit.
Yes the rear Eibach's go from 120 to 200 lb/in at full compression so that is up to 66% more energy for a 10-15% stiffer shock to control in the worst case. Hopefully you can see why the springs cause accelerated wear fast if you drive on undulating or bumpy or curvy roads frequently.
Racers rebuild shocks every 500 miles [every race]...........$100 retail shocks are not very good [regardless of brand as this is a $15 cost to make item].
When you get into $400-$1,000 a piece units [with external expansion tanks [like the Q45a shocks], you get some precise longevity when used on the street.
Tokico blues are just the bottom of that brands barrel [a notch up or down from oem]. Designed not to leak [lifetime non racing warranty but not necessarily to work well for long-------no warranty on performance just that they won't leak.
Not even a penny a mile $300/30,000 miles plus labor............just part of the Q 15 cents per mile M&R cost: Brakes, tires, suspension, shocks.
Why the LS 400/430 feel very mushy........owners don't change shocks every 30k. Thanks to better adjustability the LS suspension with better tires and a little sway bar redesign can be the equal of a Q or better in handling...........mostly about weight and tires.......more negative camber and toe like the Q......stiffer sway bars, stiffer shocks in transition.
But the plush ride goes away and tire wear issues surface.
No free lunch..........stiffer springs = faster oem/blues wear some time dramatic as when shifting used shocks to stiffer springs!
The rears are the worst [first noticed here].
People forget sway bars are springs that have no shock compensation since swaying [turning is less frequent than going straight ahead].
Aggressive driving [bumps/sway] wears out shocks fast! As does extra weight in trunk.
Study how the car feels with gas tank empty vs full~~ 126 pounds of weight variace.......8.5% sprung weight variance on rear springs/shocks.
Rear bobbing up and down slightly [little rebound control left] at highway speed is a sure sign of time to replace.
Unfortunately this is harder to test than just the feel of compressing the shock as it it time velocity dependent.
Shocks rarely fail early in compression because this just slows the springs compression vs. rebound where all the compressed spring forces are slowed by the shock.
Always think opposite side in rebound to find the culprit.
Yes the rear Eibach's go from 120 to 200 lb/in at full compression so that is up to 66% more energy for a 10-15% stiffer shock to control in the worst case. Hopefully you can see why the springs cause accelerated wear fast if you drive on undulating or bumpy or curvy roads frequently.
Racers rebuild shocks every 500 miles [every race]...........$100 retail shocks are not very good [regardless of brand as this is a $15 cost to make item].
When you get into $400-$1,000 a piece units [with external expansion tanks [like the Q45a shocks], you get some precise longevity when used on the street.
Tokico blues are just the bottom of that brands barrel [a notch up or down from oem]. Designed not to leak [lifetime non racing warranty but not necessarily to work well for long-------no warranty on performance just that they won't leak.
Not even a penny a mile $300/30,000 miles plus labor............just part of the Q 15 cents per mile M&R cost: Brakes, tires, suspension, shocks.
Why the LS 400/430 feel very mushy........owners don't change shocks every 30k. Thanks to better adjustability the LS suspension with better tires and a little sway bar redesign can be the equal of a Q or better in handling...........mostly about weight and tires.......more negative camber and toe like the Q......stiffer sway bars, stiffer shocks in transition.
But the plush ride goes away and tire wear issues surface.
No free lunch..........stiffer springs = faster oem/blues wear some time dramatic as when shifting used shocks to stiffer springs!
The rears are the worst [first noticed here].
People forget sway bars are springs that have no shock compensation since swaying [turning is less frequent than going straight ahead].
Aggressive driving [bumps/sway] wears out shocks fast! As does extra weight in trunk.
Study how the car feels with gas tank empty vs full~~ 126 pounds of weight variace.......8.5% sprung weight variance on rear springs/shocks.
Rear bobbing up and down slightly [little rebound control left] at highway speed is a sure sign of time to replace.