Do you wanna lease your battery?

The web's first forum dedicated to Nissan's groundbreaking electric car, the Nissan Leaf.
randylee
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Do you wanna lease your battery?

Postby randylee » Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:55 pm

Hi everyone,

I've signed up to get as much information as I can on the new Leaf and I'm generally happy with what I read. Except when it comes to (maybe) having us lease the batteries.

I kind of like the idea of Nissan protecting us from the potential downside of purchasing battery packs that may become obsolete or that may simply be the biggest questionable part of buying the car. But at what price?

I don't have the source right at hand, but the most recent mention I've seen is that Nissan would price the car reasonably, then lease the battery pack based on the equivalent of 15,000 miles per year gas price for a comparable ICE car. The article I saw had numbers of $200 to $400. This seems grossly high. I think the lease should be calculated at about 15,000 miles x 30 miles per gallon equivalent at $3 per gallon, or a net of about $125 per month.

In reality, I don’t expect to drive an electric car more than 10,000 miles per year. That’s roughly 40 miles a day, 5 days a week for most of the year. So, if Nissan tries to sell the battery lease idea as paying for the gas I’m saving, this is going to be a tough sell for me.

Should the battery pack be leased? If so, at what cost – or based on what factors?

Randy



lortech
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (randylee)

Postby lortech » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:39 pm

That is subject to the infrastructure put in place to charge the car. Imagine unpluging from work, driving home, plug in. Have dinner, then unplug and goto mall and plug in. Depending on the time you spend at home and mall during this time, you may far exceed the 40 miles per day.

Also, once the Us economy, and world economy begins to puckup, it will put strain on world petrolum supplies and the cost of fuel will again, climb again. Also, did you forget to include the other items of cost? tune ups, oil changes, exaust repairs etc?? the maintence can list can go on and can be costly.

akm47
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (randylee)

Postby akm47 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:31 pm

I believe Nissan's cost of the lithium polymer battery in the Leaf is around $10,000 (which is cheap compared to the Tesla at $36k).

For Nissan to break even on the $10k cost of the battery on a three year lease would be $277 a month. Realistically it would be well above $300 a month.

It all depends on the price. Does the $30k list price include the $10k battery or not?

If the LEAF is around $30k less the $7500 tax credit and less another $10k for the battery, I'm happy to pay a ~$300 a month battery lease, because the net purchase price of the car would be under $15k. I think this is very unlikely given the cost of new technology. It's more likely the net price of the car will be mid $20k after tax credit, plus the battery lease.

akm47
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (lortech)

Postby akm47 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:34 pm

lortech wrote:That is subject to the infrastructure put in place to charge the car. Imagine unpluging from work, driving home, plug in. Have dinner, then unplug and goto mall and plug in. Depending on the time you spend at home and mall during this time, you may far exceed the 40 miles per day. .
It's not 40 miles per day. It's 100 miles per charge - big difference. Many people will be able to charge the Leaf at work.

Leaf seeker
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (akm47)

Postby Leaf seeker » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:34 pm

I'm retired and only drive my car about 3000 mi. a year. If I ever have to drive a good distance, say over 50 miles in a day, I'd take my wife's ICE car. I only want the Leaf for my daily errands getting to the store, park, library, coffee shop, etc. The battery lease is definitely a big downside for me if it's priced at the equivalent of 15,000 mi. a year of gas. I'd rather buy it and take the chance of the battery becoming obsolete. At my rate of driving I'll be dead or too old to drive by the time my battery is worn out enough to be replaced by whatever the newest technology is. I think Nissan is making a big mistake if they only allow leasing with a one price fits all model. A lot of EV purchasers are environmentally-conscious people who already drive fewer miles than the average driver and aren't going to buy into the theory.

akm47
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (Leaf seeker)

Postby akm47 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:22 pm

Leaf seeker wrote:I'm retired and only drive my car about 3000 mi. a year. If I ever have to drive a good distance, say over 50 miles in a day, I'd take my wife's ICE car. I only want the Leaf for my daily errands getting to the store, park, library, coffee shop, etc. The battery lease is definitely a big downside for me if it's priced at the equivalent of 15,000 mi. a year of gas. I'd rather buy it and take the chance of the battery becoming obsolete. At my rate of driving I'll be dead or too old to drive by the time my battery is worn out enough to be replaced by whatever the newest technology is. I think Nissan is making a big mistake if they only allow leasing with a one price fits all model.
The battery lease is Nissan's way to reduce potential risk of failures in the field, because they can replace/upgrade them at no cost to the owner. The 2011 LEAF offering won't work for everyone, which is what the Nissan reps were telling people on the tour.

The LEAF is only the first of (hopefully) a long line of EV's and the one size fits all approach is actually good from Nissan's perspective. Nissan will not be able to meet demand in the 2011 model year anyway. What they really want are several thousand buyers willing to be 'early adopters', which will involve paying a premium for the battery lease. It doesn't sound like you fit that category.

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relytgerg
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (akm47)

Postby relytgerg » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:14 am

There was an interesting article on the gm-volt site recently about the Nissan battery pack and the thermal management (or lack thereof). It can be found at http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/28/...ystem/

Nissan's approach to thermal management (that is not allowing the battery to get too cold or too warm) appears to be to pass cabin air around the battery while the car is in operation. Presumably heat is being used when conditions would be too cold for the battery and air conditioning is being used when conditions would be too hot. The position of the gm-volt site appears to be that this is potentially a poor choice.

However, as some readers at that site have pointed out, this may be a good strategic choice. By leasing the battery Nissan can leave open the ability to replace the 1st generation battery pack with newer technology that will undoubtedly require less space and weight for the same or more power. This may allow them to improve their thermal management but still fit the new packs with these improvements in the same space.

For myself, I'll be looking at the Leaf, the Volt, and any other options as they become available. I'll likely be an early adopter. One of the key factors in any purchase decision will be TOTAL cost of ownership:- The cost of the vehicle- Minus government rebates.- Plus the cost of leasing the battery (if any)- and here's an important one that some miss - Plus the cost of maintenance which I expect to be much less than an ICE vehicle- Plus the cost of "fuel."

I just hope electrical vehicles make it to my market (central NY state) reasonably soon after initial rollout to selected markets.

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relytgerg
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (relytgerg)

Postby relytgerg » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:33 am

The news is out. Nissan has announced their sales/leasing strategy. You will be able to buy the car and battery or lease the car and battery. There will be no option to buy the car but lease the battery.

Leaf seeker
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (relytgerg)

Postby Leaf seeker » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:43 pm

relytgerg wrote:The news is out. Nissan has announced their sales/leasing strategy. You will be able to buy the car and battery or lease the car and battery. There will be no option to buy the car but lease the battery.
I hadn't heard this and I'm signed up with Nissan for Leaf news. What is your source for this?

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relytgerg
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (Leaf seeker)

Postby relytgerg » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:14 am

I believe I heard it first on gm-volt.com, then confirmed it with a google search. I don't remember the second site I found with the search but the source quoted was Nissan.

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relytgerg
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery? (relytgerg)

Postby relytgerg » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:23 am

The official Nissan Press Release can be found at: http://www.nissannews.com/news...=1064 which says in part, "The Nissan LEAF will be available to consumers via lease or sale, in a single transaction that includes the battery."

It also states you can reserve a Leaf for a $100 fully refundable deposit in April right after they announce the price.

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KimberKenobi
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery?

Postby KimberKenobi » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:46 pm

I remember doing a cost/benefit analysis of battery cost (of course I can't find it) and I think for me at the time and with the pricing available, the total cost of running an EV (cost of charging for miles per year plus the cost of leasing the battery) came to pretty much the same as putting gas in the Camel...

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relytgerg
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery?

Postby relytgerg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:28 am

So if the total "cost of running an EV (cost of charging for miles per year plus the cost of leasing the battery) came to pretty much the same as putting gas in the Camel," then why not go electric? Here are some of the advantages:

1) Electric vehicles are simpler, and therefore less expensive to operate and maintain.
- No oil changes. No exhaust system. No radiator. A lot fewer moving parts.
2) They are much friendlier to the environment, even when you take into account the use of electricity generated in part by coal fired plants.
3) There is no dependence on foreign oil. Your "fuel" is all local and domestic.
4) Gas prices tend to fluctuate more than electrical prices.

Also, if gas prices rise, and they are rising, doesn't this make an EV the better choice?

Yes, there are some disadvantages, the biggest one being range limitations. The LEAF is not the car for everyone, and probably isn't the best choice for a one car owner/family, but as a commuter car or second car for anyone that has a place to plug in, it's a smart choice in my humble opinion.

retrodog
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Re: Do you wanna lease your battery?

Postby retrodog » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:24 am

I heard somewhere that in the US, it is illegal to sell a car and try to lease something for it that is required to make it operate. Maybe that is why Nissan finally changed their plan to include selling the batteries with the car.


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