Discussions on the new bailout bill

[telcoman]

Howie,There is a huge difference between a budget surplus (cutting Government spending as opposed to projected tax revenue) and having a ACTUAL capital surplus. I know Dems are fond of running around claiming this fact, but we should not confuse the two.It also does not credit GHW Bush (41) for starting the process with reneging on his "No New Taxes" pledge, which helped him to loose the 92 election.

Hey Bud

Obama just signed the bill.

You won't see this on Fox but it looks like Republican governors are bailing on the GOP. I can certainly understand why. Pretty soon after the next election you won't have any to represent you.The GOP failed to heed the warning in the 06 elections but some especially the governors can see the writing on the wall. Either change or be voted out of office.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...paper

O'Reilly last night. Actually on the TIVO this morning. He is still trying to apologize for trashing Helen ThomasWhat a d!ck!

Still ragging on about the octuplets. Such old unimportant news.No wonder hardly anyone watches.

Telcoman

[Cold_Zero]

Hey Bud

Obama just signed the bill.

You won't see this on Fox but it looks like Republican governors are bailing on the GOP. I can certainly understand why. Pretty soon after the next election you won't have any to represent you.The GOP failed to heed the warning in the 06 elections but some especially the governors can see the writing on the wall. Either change or be voted out of office.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...paper

No offence Howie, but that just shows me that with enough money if you throw a few Billion Dollars at cash strapped States you can BUY any Governor's approval.

I believe that Indiana's total is 1 Billion after all the Education funding is deducted from the Stimulus Bill. I didn’t see Mitch Daniels in DC groveling to Pelosi, Reid and Obama for money. Maybe because unlike California with its run away spending and unbalanced budgets, our budget isn’t that bad because of the funds from the leasing of the Indiana State Toll Road, a Rainy Day Fund (surplus) that is pretty sizeable and the fact that Mitch Daniels has asked the Government to find alternate ways of cutting their budgets. That Mr. Arnold is fiscal conservatism.

As a side note, the Indiana Dems keep calling for the use of the Rainy Day Fund in these troubled times. I am glad Mitch keeps standing up to them, because they were the same chuckleheads that spent the Indiana Teachers Retirement Fund. And thanks, again, to Mitch Daniels for paying that back. Now my wife (a Union Member) can have the retirement payments from teh fund that were promised to her.

It doesn’t surprise me that Schwarz in California is jumping ship. He does what ever he needs to look good and stay alive as Governor. He is also Austrian and some of them have screws loose in their head, or something. I must admit, Charlie Crist, in that article was a bit of a shock.

Quote »O'Reilly last night. Actually on the TIVO this morning. He is still trying to apologize for trashing Helen ThomasWhat a d!ck![/quote] Sorry man, I don’t watch the Leprechaun on Fox News. I must have missed this whole incident.

Quote »Still ragging on about the octuplets. Such old unimportant news.No wonder hardly anyone watches.

Telcoman [/quote]Well, my wife still gets tweaked about that news story. You call it ‘unimportant news’ yet all the news outlets like NBC, CBS, CNN and ABC are just fascinated by the story. You can’t turn on 60 Minutes or Dateline NBC with out someone interviewing that woman.

[telcoman]

No offence Howie, but that just shows me that with enough money if you throw a few Billion Dollars at cash strapped States you can BUY any Governor's approval.

I believe that Indiana's total is 1 Billion after all the Education funding is deducted from the Stimulus Bill. I didn’t see Mitch Daniels in DC groveling to Pelosi, Reid and Obama for money. Maybe because unlike California with its run away spending and unbalanced budgets, our budget isn’t that bad because of the funds from the leasing of the Indiana State Toll Road (now in the Rainy Day Fund) and the fact that Mitch Daniels has asked the Government to find alternate ways of cutting their budgets. That Mr. Arnold is fiscal conservatism. As a side note, the Indiana Dems keep calling for the use of the Rainy Day Fund. I am glad Mitch keeps standing up to them, they were the same chuckleheads that spent the Indiana Teachers Retirement Fund. Thanks, again, to Mitch Daniels for paying that back. Now my wife (a Union Member) can have retirement payments from it (as promised to her).

It doesn’t surprise me that Schwarz in California is jumping ship. He does what ever he needs to look good and stay alive as Governor. He is also Austrian and some of them have screws loose in their head, or something. I must admit, Charlie Crist, in that article was a bit of a shock.

Sorry man, I don’t watch the Leprechaun on Fox News. I must have missed this whole incident.

Well, my wife still gets tweaked about that news story. You call it ‘unimportant news’ yet all the news outlets like NBC, CBS, CNN and ABC are just fascinated by the story. You can’t turn on 60 Minutes or Dateline NBC with out someone interviewing that woman.

Perhaps Indiana lucked out with a Republican governor? Christine Todd Whitman screwed up New Jersey's finances by failing to make payments and borrow money from the teachers retirement fund. The state has a 33 billion dollar debt from her mismanagement. She went on to the Bush administration to environmental czar telling the rescue workers immediately after 911 that the air around the WTC was safe to breathe.Many of them are now dying a slow death with lung problems. She was a total incompetent. She gave Howard Stern a rest stop on Rt 295 in return for an endorsement. It has since been trashed and closed. He no longer supports republicans even with all his money.

I have found that it is rare to find a decent republican. The small government and fiscal responsibility platform sound good but pretty soon they want to get into your bedroom, place religion in government, try to force births of children that some can't afford and tell citizens who they should marry. They also oppose sex education in public schools, oppose science and stem cell research to name just a few.

No thanks!

I'll stick with the dems.

Telcoman

[OriginalWheelman]

You know I wonder how many people are democrats because they don't like republicans. Its seems to be the main reason of every democrat I talk to. I guess they think there are only two choices. The Libertarians promote social freedom and fiscal conservativism. Why not them if social regulation is your gripe?

I have found that it is rare to find a decent democrat. The social programs and government overseeing everything platform sounds good but pretty soon they want to get into how you raise your children, place charity in government, try to force people to accept what they perceive as legalized murder, and tell citizens how they should feel on social issues. They also oppose small government, states rights, and free enterprise to name just a few.

[Cold_Zero]

Perhaps Indiana lucked out with a Republican governor?

After 15 years of Democrat Governors, I think Indiana finally got a gem.

Quote »Christine Todd Whitman screwed up New Jersey's finances by failing to make payments and borrow money from the teachers retirement fund. [/quote]Borrowing against retirement funds is sacrilegious and should be illegal for governments to do so. If Corporations and businesses do the same thing, they would be in violation of the ERISA Act. Before the fund was paid back, my wife faced the prospect of paying into the retirement fund and not getting anything out of it.

Quote »I have found that it is rare to find a decent republican. The small government and fiscal responsibility platform sound good but pretty soon they want to get into your bedroom, place religion in government, try to force births of children that some can't afford and tell citizens who they should marry. They also oppose sex education in public schools, oppose science and stem cell research to name just a few.

No thanks!

I'll stick with the dems.

Telcoman[/quote]I do find the irony in your comments. I guess I could say,

“I have found that it is rare to find a decent Democrat. Sure the big government and fiscal irresponsibility platform may sound good but pretty soon they want to get into your schools to brain wash your kids, eradicate any religious reference in the government or the public square, give children free license to act irresponsible in the name of ‘safe sex’ and then encourage children to have abortions without consulting their parents first (they are minors right?) and tell citizens with any shred of morality that they are evil if they speak out. They also support sex education as a form of indoctrination in perversion in public schools, ‘support’ science by trying to fool kids into thinking that Evolution is scientific fact and mocking anyone that doesn’t hold to the ‘Theory’ as being unscientific and backwards (I thought they were the Party of open mindedness?) and instead of respecting life and the deceased they want to harvest stem cell in the name of research and progress from aborted children, when more scientific break throughs have been made in Adult and Umbilical Cord stem cells.

No thanks!

I'll stick with the conservatives. ”

Love ya Howie

[telcoman]

After 15 years of Democrat Governors, I think Indiana finally got a gem.

Borrowing against retirement funds is sacrilegious and should be illegal for governments to do so. If Corporations and businesses do the same thing, they would be in violation of the ERISA Act. Before the fund was paid back, my wife faced the prospect of paying into the retirement fund and not getting anything out of it.

I do find the irony in your comments. I guess I could say,

“I have found that it is rare to find a decent Democrat. Sure the big government and fiscal irresponsibility platform may sound good but pretty soon they want to get into your schools to brain wash your kids, eradicate any religious reference in the government or the public square, give children free license to act irresponsible in the name of ‘safe sex’ and then encourage children to have abortions without consulting their parents first (they are minors right?) and tell citizens with any shred of morality that they are evil if they speak out. They also support sex education as a form of indoctrination in perversion in public schools, ‘support’ science by trying to fool kids into thinking that Evolution is scientific fact and mocking anyone that doesn’t hold to the ‘Theory’ as being unscientific and backwards (I thought they were the Party of open mindedness?) and instead of respecting life and the deceased they want to harvest stem cell in the name of research and progress from aborted children, when more scientific break throughs have been made in Adult and Umbilical Cord stem cells.

No thanks!

I'll stick with the conservatives. ”

Love ya Howie

I have to admit there are some interesting characters around here.

I think I would enjoy having a beer with you. (provided you left your guns at home)

Who knows perhaps I could turn you into a democrat?

[Cold_Zero]

I have to admit there are some interesting characters around here.

I think I would enjoy having a beer with you. (provided you left your guns at home)

Who knows perhaps I could turn you into a democrat?

How about this, we can meet in NJ since I am not allowed to conceal carry in that state.

If you turned me into a democrat then I would be afraid that I would turn you into a Republican and we would still fight like cats and dogs....j/k

[telcoman]

How about this, we can meet in NJ since I am not allowed to conceal carry in that state.

If you turned me into a democrat then I would be afraid that I would turn you into a Republican and we would still fight like cats and dogs....j/k

Good idea Bud

Who knows you might decide you like it here and move

[Cold_Zero]

Good idea Bud

Who knows you might decide you like it here and move

Oh Howie,When you have lived in Eden (New York) there would be no reason to move to New Jersey (hell?) j/k

[OriginalWheelman]

Oh Howie,When you have lived in Eden (New York) there would be no reason to move to New Jersey (hell?) j/k

When you have lived in Eden NY you have no reason to move anywhere. My adopted hometown. I love it here.

*EDIT* I think I misinterpreted your statement. Were you aware there is an Eden, NY?
Modified by OriginalWheelman at 4:21 PM 2/17/2009

[ishkabibble]

‘support’ science by trying to fool kids into thinking that Evolution is scientific fact and mocking anyone that doesn’t hold to the ‘Theory’ as being unscientific and backwards (I thought they were the Party of open mindedness?)

Evolutionist: Looks at the available evidence and draws a tentative conclusion.

Creationist: Has a predetermined, unchanging conclusion because they take an allegory literally, seeks out evidence supporting the conclusion (no matter how far of a reach it is), and ignores any evidence which is contrary to their foregone conclusion.

Yes, the former is much more unscientific, closed-minded, and backwards than the latter.

[OriginalWheelman]

For what it's worth, neither has been proven or disproven, and both could be true at the same time.

[ishkabibble]

For what it's worth, neither has been proven or disproven, and both could be true at the same time.

For what it's worth, neither can be proven or disproven. Both could be true (I guess I'm one of those "rare" open-minded evolutionists), but there is little supporting evidence for Creationism.

[480sx]

There is so much evidence that supports the 'theory' of Evolution to dismiss it is sticking your head in the sand. I wouldnt even say the conclusion is tentative at this point. Evolution is a science, tried, tested, battle hardened and relentlessly studied.

"Yes, but so was Galileo's 'science' in the 1600's". This is not the 1600's. We are so advanced and so interconnected with technology that has proven evolution to be pretty much a fact. This is not to say we are infallible, but, EVERY scientist around the world being completely wrong about something as widely studied as evolutionary biology? With all that we have found, proven, tested, and drawn conclusions from? Odds of that are similar to the odds of life not existing anywhere else in the universe.

The catch here is, how did it start? Thats where the majority of theories fall short. No one has yet to be able to duplicate conditions needed to 'create' life out of inorganic matter. That to me is the life line of Creationism.

Life is a strange miracle, there is no doubt about that.

[Cold_Zero]

Evolutionist: Looks at the available evidence and draws a tentative conclusion.

Creationist: Has a predetermined, unchanging conclusion because they take an allegory literally, seeks out evidence supporting the conclusion (no matter how far of a reach it is), and ignores any evidence which is contrary to their foregone conclusion.

Yes, the former is much more unscientific, closed-minded, and backwards than the latter.

And scientist that follow the Evolutionist world view don't have a predetermined, unchanging conclusion because they want to discredit/disprove the Judeo Christian Genesis account (aka religion), seek out evidence to support their world-view (no matter how far of a reach it is, like seeding by Crystals and Aliens when trying to explain the origin of complicated micro biology? Really?), and ignore any evidence which is contrary to their foregone conclusions (like exclusively using the Fossil Record to date materials). I guess what I am saying is that I can say the same thing, about evolutionists. Their 'science' is influenced by their world-view (there is no moral truth; science and religion will not be related and once religion is removed from the discussion they have the platform to themselves) in order to realize a certain desired result. What is sad is that the institution of Evolution and for the most part Academic Science has become an intellectual totalitarianism that allows no dissent.

I will leave you with a quote from Richard Dawkins, “If they called me as a witness and a lawyer asked, [sic] said, ‘Dr. Dawkins, has your belief in evolution, has your study of evolution turned you towards atheism?’ I would have to say yes. And that is the worst possible thing I could say for winning that court case. So people like me are bad news for the Science/Evolution lobby.”

*************************************************************Now back to the original topic of the Stimulus Bill.

[OriginalWheelman]

Evolutionary Biology is currently undergoing major reconstruction. Basically, a good chunk of what evolutionist though they had traced was totally wrong. Mass computing has allowed DNA sequencing which is causing a major rewrite of the evolutionary tree. In short, evolutionary biology is at best an infant science.

I could go into arguments on this here, but you're delving into the realm of science vs religion. I can argue both sides well, and I could make a case for both being true at the same time, but I don't feel this is the place.

[Cold_Zero]

I could go into arguments on this here, but you're delving into the realm of science vs religion. I can argue both sides well, and I could make a case for both being true at the same time, but I don't feel this is the place.

Yeah, I was just trying to respond to Ish's comments, not trying to open Pandora's box by debating Evolution vs. Creationism or Intelligent Design, in this subforum.

[ishkabibble]

And scientist that follow the Evolutionist world view don't have a predetermined, unchanging conclusion because they want to discredit/disprove the Judeo Christian Genesis account (aka religion),

Not really. The Creationists look at the fringe of evolution believers and think that there is a vast conspiracy against them. Really, it's just about people wanting to keep discussions about science limited to science.

like seeding by Crystals and Aliens when trying to explain the origin of complicated micro biology?

I used to be a Genetics major. This is the first I've heard of these theories. More fringe.

science and religion will not be related and once religion is removed from the discussion they have the platform to themselves) in order to realize a certain desired result. What is sad is that the institution of Evolution and for the most part Academic Science has become an intellectual totalitarianism that allows no dissent.

No, they want to keep discussion about science on topic. Run Creationism through the scientific method, and if it holds enough water, I'd be willing to let it be taught to kids as a viable alternate theory.

Evolutionary Biology is currently undergoing major reconstruction. Basically, a good chunk of what evolutionist though they had traced was totally wrong. Mass computing has allowed DNA sequencing which is causing a major rewrite of the evolutionary tree. In short, evolutionary biology is at best an infant science.

Yep, but it's still the best guess that's out there at the moment. Which is all science ever is - a best guess.

[OriginalWheelman]

Yep, but it's still the best guess that's out there at the moment. Which is all science ever is - a best guess.

I have a saying about science. "The nature of science is to prove itself wrong."

[Cold_Zero]

Not really. The Creationists look at the fringe of evolution believers and think that there is a vast conspiracy against them. Really, it's just about people wanting to keep discussions about science limited to science.

I used to be a Genetics major. This is the first I've heard of these theories. More fringe.

No, they want to keep discussion about science on topic. Run Creationism through the scientific method, and if it holds enough water, I'd be willing to let it be taught to kids as a viable alternate theory.

Yep, but it's still the best guess that's out there at the moment. Which is all science ever is - a best guess.

Two things I noticed about your comments Ish.1. You claim that "The Creationists look at the fringe of evolution believers and think that there is a vast conspiracy against them" yet you are the one dismissing everything as being fringe and a vast right wing conspiracy.2. Your last comment appears to under mind your second to the last comment. Apparently Creationism and Intelligent Design can't past scientific muster, yet Evolution, which apparently can past muster, is the "best guess" at the moment.

How about we call a truce, if we call (secular) humanism for what it is, a religion that worships man's efforts (not deism) or man as his own god and stop having its principles and morality taught in public schools along with other alternate religions like Wicca and New Age, I would be happy to drop the effort to have Intelligent Design/Creationism re-introduced into science classrooms. To be honest, I don’t feel comfort having this subject matter taught in schools because I don’t trust the school systems to get it right. But I am very leery about sending my child to a school that denies that it is religious in nature and can’t admit that it teaches an underlying religious, moral or philosophical system in its underlying curriculum. I would rather send my kid to a Buddhist school (or something) that is overtly religious, so that we can frame the discussion. I find it ironic that ID can't be taught in schools because its religious over tones, so efforts fail under Equal Access section of the Constitution (they try to argue Equal Access, yet are denied by religious arguments). Yet because Evolution and Secular Humanism are not called religions and particularly a major World Religion, there is no issue.

Again, this thread is about the economic bailout bill and probably should be re focused on such discussion. I admit that my comments shifted the discussion and we should shift it back.

[smockers83]

A leading indicator is the stock market and another is my 401k plan.

Oh no it is not.

When did this recession start? When did the stock market go down?When a jobs report comes out, what happens? The stock market reacts to the report.When earnings come in, what happens? The stock market reacts to the report.

A stock price is the value of future earnings, but it is not a leading indicator that predicts the future. The market is based on the news available to the market. If the market doesn't know what's going on, they're going to continue going about their business until that news comes about.

[ishkabibble]

Two things I noticed about your comments Ish.1. You claim that "The Creationists look at the fringe of evolution believers and think that there is a vast conspiracy against them" yet you are the one dismissing everything as being fringe and a vast right wing conspiracy.

No. Fundies are the right wing "base" and they have an organized initiative to get ID taught in schools. This is not tinfoil hattery, but common knowledge.

2. Your last comment appears to under mind your second to the last comment. Apparently Creationism and Intelligent Design can't past scientific muster, yet Evolution, which apparently can past muster, is the "best guess" at the moment.

Science is nothing but a best guess. Even the Law of Gravity is erroneous under certain conditions, yet it is called a "Law" and taught in schools.

etc

Evolution is not religion. The ID community usually tries to mix the two, which is a fallacy, and why 99% of their arguments never get the slightest bit off the ground.

Again, this thread is about the economic bailout bill and probably should be re focused on such discussion. I admit that my comments shifted the discussion and we should shift it back.

All of this spending, and we are still experiencing deflation. I think our bust is going to be similar to Japan's recent one regardless of what we do to try to address it. A dozen years of deflation and generally crappy economy.

At some point, though, government will have to institute massive inflation to reduce the effect of the "loan", no?

[liquid_cool]

Two things I noticed about your comments Ish.1. You claim that "The Creationists look at the fringe of evolution believers and think that there is a vast conspiracy against them" yet you are the one dismissing everything as being fringe and a vast right wing conspiracy.2. Your last comment appears to under mind your second to the last comment. Apparently Creationism and Intelligent Design can't past scientific muster, yet Evolution, which apparently can past muster, is the "best guess" at the moment.

How about we call a truce, if we call (secular) humanism for what it is, a religion that worships man's efforts (not deism) or man as his own god and stop having its principles and morality taught in public schools along with other alternate religions like Wicca and New Age, I would be happy to drop the effort to have Intelligent Design/Creationism re-introduced into science classrooms. To be honest, I don’t feel comfort having this subject matter taught in schools because I don’t trust the school systems to get it right. But I am very leery about sending my child to a school that denies that it is religious in nature and can’t admit that it teaches an underlying religious, moral or philosophical system in its underlying curriculum. I would rather send my kid to a Buddhist school (or something) that is overtly religious, so that we can frame the discussion. I find it ironic that ID can't be taught in schools because its religious over tones, so efforts fail under Equal Access section of the Constitution (they try to argue Equal Access, yet are denied by religious arguments). Yet because Evolution and Secular Humanism are not called religions and particularly a major World Religion, there is no issue.

Again, this thread is about the economic bailout bill and probably should be re focused on such discussion. I admit that my comments shifted the discussion and we should shift it back.

nice post man..but ya forgot one religon tought in public scrools..."Global Warming" thats a religon too!..its full of crap you can debunk with facts..but people still believe it...

[C-Kwik]

nice post man..but ya forgot one religon tought in public scrools..."Global Warming" thats a religon too!..its full of crap you can debunk with facts..but people still believe it...

While I remain somewhat skeptic, I don't think anyone disputing MMGW has been able to fully debunk it either. My understanding is that it has stood up to scientific test. It is a scientific theory, but in science, a theory means that it has been tested and is currently the understood school of thought. Its not being considered a hypothesis by the scientific community.

No, they want to keep discussion about science on topic. Run Creationism through the scientific method, and if it holds enough water, I'd be willing to let it be taught to kids as a viable alternate theory.

Problem is there isn't any way to test it. It still comes down to being able to test for the presence of a god. Which there is no known way to do. And if No god is found, it would be easy enough to dismiss it as being unable to detect god.

Perhaps you are indirectly getting at that though now that I think about it. Personally, I don't have a problem if it were taught as a religious view. But it shouldn't be taught as a theory (scientific definition) unless it can be tested scientifically.

[audtatious]

While I remain somewhat skeptic, I don't think anyone disputing MMGW has been able to fully debunk it either. My understanding is that it has stood up to scientific test. It is a scientific theory, but in science, a theory means that it has been tested and is currently the understood school of thought. Its not being considered a hypothesis by the scientific community.

You are correct, MMGW has not been debunked. BUT, just about every pro-MMGW report has been shown to be full of holes or simply ignoring other aspects within the environment which could lead to another observed "conclusion". There is a reason why the "warming models" that are used to prove MMGW are never used with "past data". Putting in the data from even 10 years ago and having it calculate where we should be today would show we should be "X" degrees warmer with no ice caps

The fact is that science is still trying to learn about weather, the atmosphere and what solar events impact the earths temps. MMGW is politicized so much you can't believe the alarmists stance as the direction they want to take us will trash all worlds economies.

As reports are coming out saying we may be headed towards another ice age, why didn't the IPCC report represent that if their computer models are so accurate? IPCC showed the hockey stick whereas current temps are going down. We have not had any warming in 10 years at this point. Instead they post doom and gloom to get people scared in order to act a certain way. Those saying we should be warmer today than this time last year are now saying we are going to be in a cooling trend for 6 more years and the "OMG!!! The temp is gonna shoot up and melt us all if we don't stop everything we are doing and fix it RIGHT NOW"..... Hmmmm....

[themadscientist]

back on topic.I don't know if anyone has lnked to it yet but this should be it.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/...7Ew67

House votehttp://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll067.xml

Senate voteChrist the website doesn't work. It's just the United States Senate for crying out loud. My website works, maybe they should hire me.