Discussion I had with gas station dist. manager about ethanol.

[Q451990]

After having a couple of injector failures since my last fillup, I decided to talk to the gas station manager. He was very helpful and told me a lot of the same things that Dennis has mentioned about ethanol.

First of all, the conversion to ethanol at each station involves draining the tanks of the old real gas before the new blended fuel is pumped in. He said that they are also testing the gas in the tanks daily for water - and even more if it rains. They are also replacing the filters on the pumps on a weekly basis.

The fuel in this area comes from a tank farm in Augusta, GA - and it's blended with ethanol somewhere in Bamberg, SC. They calculate 10% of the load in Augusta, and then add the ethanol in Bamberg. They rely on the sloshing of the fuel on the drive here to blend it.

As far as my issues, he suggested that I replace my fuel filter. Apparently the ethanol cleans up a lot of the crust and gunk in the fuel system, and can overload the filter after the first few tanks of the new blended fuels.

He also stated that there may be a few stations still selling "real" fuel if they haven't done the change-over yet - but didn't know where they might be in this area.

Heath

[96Qowner]

As far as my issues, he suggested that I replace my fuel filter. Apparently the ethanol cleans up a lot of the crust and gunk in the fuel system, and can overload the filter after the first few tanks of the new blended fuels.

Heath

I remember hearing this when ethanol was first introduced around here, 20 years ago. The changeover clogged a lot of fuel filters.

[maxnix]

Can't imagine ethanol putting much more into solution than isopropyl from Iso-HEET would.

Hmmm.....

[96Qowner]

Been doing some Googling ...

I didn't find a definitive sort of article, but there are a lot of entries regarding problems with boat motors, and repeated references to ethanol loosening old deposits in tanks and circulating them into the system. Also problems with hoses and paper fuel filters.

Isopropyl concentrations wouldn't be nearly 10% when using Isoheet, so maybe that's the difference.

[Q45tech]

11 ounces of Iso Heet vs 2.2 gallons [281 ounces] might be 20 times more exotic in cleaning out a tank.

[Q451990]

I saw the service manager of my local dealership at the gym today. He drives a 94Q with 199k on the odometer. Said he lost one injector a couple of weeks ago - replaced it - and now has another one down.

Dennis, have you seen any 94+ failures yet? How are yours holding up?

I'm tempted to look up the phone number of the guy that bought Q1 to see how the purple tops I installed in the late 90s are holding up.

Heath

[NightRiderQ45]

How do you know if one of your fuel injectors have failed?? What are the symptoms? I have drive to my job which is 95 miles round trip Monday-Friday. Well, I filled up on premium gas Sunday night to get ready for the work week. Well on my way home Tuesday, my gas hand was already a little past halfway mark which is just stupid !! Two days My mpg has never been that bad!! What's going on??? I will be replacing the fuel filter this Saturday!!

[qship96]

How do you know if one of your fuel injectors have failed?? What are the symptoms? I have drive to my job which is 95 miles round trip Monday-Friday. Well, I filled up on premium gas Sunday night to get ready for the work week. Well on my way home Tuesday, my gas hand was already a little past halfway mark which is just stupid !! Two days My mpg has never been that bad!! What's going on??? I will be replacing the fuel filter this Saturday!!

Replacing fuel filter wont alter your miles per gallon one bit, however it should be replaced regularly to prolong fuel pmp life. A full tank of fuel averages 400 miles worth of HIGHWAY driving, so your 2 days at 95 miles per day using around 1/2 tank is normal.....your commute should take about 23 gallons of fuel for a 5 day work week...thats only $87-90 x 52 weeks=4500-4800/yr in gas assuming it doesnt increase in price!!!!
Modified by qship96 at 3:46 PM 6/11/2008

[Q451990]

Total injector failure should show up as a dead miss, most noticeable at idle and under acceleration from a stop. It will feel like the car is "bouncing" at idle.

That said, injector failure seems to be pretty rare on the 97+ Q, so I wouldn't suspect it. Your issues will more likely be coil pack failure... but that's not going to have a major impact on fuel econ. either.

Heath

[maxnix]

Ohm test your KS.

[NightRiderQ45]

Thanks guys!!

[Q45tech]

Foolish to assume oil won't hit $200 per barrel and gasoline won't be $7 per gallon in the next 4 years [more/less depending on NOV election].

Start saving the difference between current and $7 and and in a few years you'll have downpayment on a 3 cylinder econobox.

The cost to transport gasoline thru a pipe line is 4-7-9 cents per gallon depending on distance from refinery. The cost of trucking or railing ethanol from upper midwest to Georgia is 67 cents per gallon TODAY.Georgia 3.2325 vs. South Dakota 2.5621 per gallon spread FROM"http://www.ethanolmarket.com/

The Federal blending credit doesn't cover the transport cost in the extreme states. [Southeast including Louisana].

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/issue.jsp

"The price of a bushel of corn for delivery in July 2009 rose to a high of $7.31 during trading yesterday, up from $6.73 the day before............that's an 8% bump or 21 cents per gallon.

At 2.8 gallons per bushel the corn alone [July 2009] cost more that the price of the finished ethanol, today. Things will inflate.

[Q451990]

I talked to a guy with a '95 Q today. He bought it when it was three years old. Said he was getting the intermittant injector "death bounce" along with a corresponding MIL. I happened to have my laptop and Consult adaptor with me. Pulled codes and got knock sensors and an injector circuit code. Tried a power balance test, but the injector sort of healed itself and the MIL went off at some point during the test. The idle was horrible - i doubt the injectors had ever been flushed in 150k... who knows about plugs. The idle was so bad that I couldn't really feel when the power balance was killing the injectors... really scary.

In spite of all of that I think he really likes the car... just has no clue how to maintain it. He didn't seem phased by the suggestion of putting $2500 into all new injectors, plenum hoses, and knock sensors - just said something to the extent of "that's still better than payments"

I suggested that he make a trip to T3.

Heath

[maxnix]

Wow, just think of a Q45 Geek Squad roaming around. Parts cars galore!

[audtatious]

Someone should do a "definitive guide to Ethanol with the Q45"

[Q45tech]

http://www.teamrsm.com/files/E...s.pdf

http://www.environment.gov.au/...t.pdf

https://beardocs.baylor.edu/bi...s.pdf

Takes a while to read and review the 60,000 + *.pdf files on web

[audtatious]

lolz....

How about a "Ethanol vs Q45" overview

[OnTheRoadAgain]

NJ Retail Dealers Assoc says Ethanol has been here (New Jersey) for 4-5 years.... has up to 10% mix depending on seasons weather etc...

and it is in marine fuels too

he said yes it IS corrosive, and has been a problem in boats.

and I read somewhere else (on here) that no signage on the pumps are required in NJ

this explains the 1st report of a miss in the engine several years ago by previous owner (Oct 93 140,000 mi) where the dealer found no problem.....

my acquisition at 142000 in Aug 2007 found random, intermittent miss, (subsequent fuel pump failure, my running tank to empty?) now needing at least 3 injectors.

[Q451990]

How about a "Ethanol vs Q45" overview

"vs" is right....