Discuss: My recent encounter with the police.

[OriginalWheelman]

I was driving in Utah, and I stopped off of I15 and decided to turn into a 7/11.



I made a left off of the main road, and tried to make a left into the parking lot, coming to a stop in the white block 1. Traffic was stopping for the light and was not stopping to let me turn. While I was waiting, a police officer came up behind me, and turned his lights on. I initially sat still, as I didn't expect he was pulling me over and I was already stopped. He then pulled up behind me and signaled me over, so I pulled over and off the road to the right.

I asked my wife if I had done anything wrong and she didn't think so either. The officer came to the window and did the license registration, insurance, etc thing. I then asked why he pulled me over, because I genuinely did not know. He said that I should have been in the turning lane, and I was obstructing traffic. I pointed out that there is no turning lane where I was stopped as it is the left hand turn lane for the intersection. He then went on to explain what a turning lane was, which further confused me. I repeated my argument that there was a solid double yellow where I was making my left, and not a turning lane. Which he did not seem to understand. He again pointed to the turning lane, and I saw no benefit in discussing it further so I simply agreed with him. He ran my information and did not issue me a ticket, but advised me to pull into the turning lane next time.

So this is where I am questioning it. From my perspective, there was a double yellow line, and those are not to be crossed. The officer seemed to misunderstand my argument about where the turning lane starts, however I could be misunderstanding him. So who do you think is right? Should I have crossed the double yellow into the oncoming turning lane, or should I have stopped where I was and waited for traffic?

[gwoods]

I can explain it for you in 1 word.... Utah

[Dattebayo]

I assume he wanted you to pull forward about 40 feet and make a U-turn from the turn lane. Because otherwise he would have been telling you to pull into the left turn lane for the other side of traffic. Am I on the same wavelength as you here?

[OriginalWheelman]

No he never mentioned a U-Turn. Besides, I was in the van. I'd need a runway and a half to do a U-turn in a G20.

[OriginalWheelman]

My general assumption from the officer's tone and explanation was that I am from Tennessee and therefore don't know what a center turn lane is.

[frapjap]

I'm confused as to your position. Were you stopped in a marked center turn lane, or were you in a lane of travel, poised to pass the 711 on your left?

If there is no center turn lane, and the road has a double yellow line I always interpreted that as never cross the double yellow line into oncoming traffic for any reason.
On very rare occasion, I will do it, but if there is anything resembling traffic, I look for another intersection to get on the side of the road that the destination is on.

If it was indeed a center turn lane, then by all means, turn across the traffic.

[MinisterofDOOM]

He said that I should have been in the turning lane, and I was obstructing traffic. I pointed out that there is no turning lane where I was stopped as it is the left hand turn lane for the intersection.

The officer is correct. You are wrong.

It's NEVER okay to stop in a forward lane of traffic in order to turn. If there's no center/turn lane, you need to find somewhere else to make your left/U-turn. It's that simple. Go another block and come back. It doesn't matter where the turn lane starts and ends. What matters is that you were stopped in a lane of traffic, which is never ever acceptable.

Utah is generally really good about providing lots of broad medians to make these turns from. Unfortunately, there's only one center lane and there are two directions of traffic, so it doesn't always work perfectly.
Idaho is TERRIBLE and only provides center turn lanes in the heaviest-trafficked areas, and this is a HUGE source of frustration for me. It's very common practice in Idaho for people to stop in a lane of traffic for a left lane, regardless of the amount of traffic they're obstructing and often very near a proper intersection where they could just wait their turn and make a proper, protected left turn.

If you can't turn without stopping traffic, you have no business turning. This applies to everything, not just center turn lanes. Right turns, left turns, Plutonian turns, whatever you're trying to do. There are other cars on the road and you can always turn somewhere else. There's no reason you have to turn right there and nowhere else.

It was a double-yellow because the stretch where you were trying to turn near the intersection is reserved for northbound, west-turning traffic. A little bit south and it opens up to be a center turn lane both ways.

All that said, I know that particular intersection really well, and it sucks. I used to live just east of I-15 there and was known to patronize that particular Crown Burger on occasion. The intersection is a MESS, particularly because of the way the Crown Burger parking lot and drive-through are arranged. It's also one of the busiest intersections in Layton. It gets messy in a hurry, and there's never any luck turning left when heading south. I usually just go a little further and take a left into the Ed Kenley Ford lot and swing back north from there. Turning left heading west is a disaster, too, so really if you want to get to Crown Burger or the 7-11, you end up having to make a U-turn down the street and come back.

[Bubba1]

I believe the law reads "left turn over double yellow... no cop".

Unless there's a center turn lane, it's illegal to make a left turn over a double yellow line. That's the law in every state. Sorry. I think the cop was trying telling you there was a left turn lane farther up, and the only legal way to get to that 7-11 was to make a left at the next legal opportunity and then turn around. Then enter the 7-11 from the other direction where you don't cross the double yellow. Had you made that turn, you could have gotten a ticket that you cant fight.

[OriginalWheelman]

That's ridiculous. What are you supposed to do if there is no turning lane? Never turn left?

[OriginalWheelman]

According to the City of Portland,

17.28.100 Driveways Defined.

(Amended by Ordinance No. 184957, effective November 25, 2011.) As used in this Chapter, the following terms shall have the meaning as set forth below.

A. “Driveway” means a paved way for vehicular traffic extending from the roadway to the property line across a sidewalk, whether or not such sidewalk is improved, for the purpose of providing access to parking or maneuvering space on abutting property.
B. “Residential driveway” means a driveway serving a one or two family residence.
C. “Commercial driveway” means a driveway serving any property except a one or two family residence.

http://www.portlandonline.com/Auditor/i ... cid_379400

So was I not legally crossing into a driveway?


New York, where I learned to drive.

Double solid lines: You can not pass or change lanes. You can not go across the lines except to turn left to enter or leave the highway (e.g., to or from a driveway or to do a U-turn see Chapter 5).

http://dmv.ny.gov/about-dmv/chapter-4-t ... -2#pav-mar


State of Utah:

(47) "Private road or driveway" means every way or place in private ownership and used for vehicular travel by the owner and those having express or implied permission from the owner, but not by other persons.

http://le.utah.gov/code/TITLE41/htm/41_06a010200.htm


Continued...

41-6a-801. Turning -- Manner -- Traffic-control devices.

The operator of a vehicle shall make turns as follows:
...
(2) Left turns:
(a) the operator of a vehicle intending to turn left shall approach the turn from the extreme left-hand lane for traffic moving in the same direction;
(b) whenever practicable, shall be made by turning onto the roadway being entered in the extreme left-hand lane for traffic moving in the new direction, unless otherwise directed by a traffic-control device; and
(c) may be made on a highway across solid double yellow line pavement markings indicating a two-direction, no-passing zone.

http://le.utah.gov/code/TITLE41/htm/41_06a080100.htm

[Bubba1]

That's ridiculous. What are you supposed to do if there is no turning lane? Never turn left?

No. Think of those solid yellow lines as an uncrossable barrier. So for turning left onto a property while on a road with double lines without a identified left turn lane, you will find these periodic breaks in the road when it intersects other roads. They're called "intersections". Unless posted otherwise, that's where you can make left turns. That's also where you have the ability to make the additional turns get your car rolling on same side of the yellow lines as your destination.

Yes, most folks will not hesitate to make a left turn across a double yellow as a short cut to get to a destination, but that doesn't mean it's universally legal. And you just learned from a personal encounter with a cop that it is illegal there. I know its not what you want to hear, As far as the line of the traffic rules you quoted, you were also obstructing traffic in a busy thru lane, which I'll bet is covered elsewhere. I wouldn't advise tempting fate by doing the same maneuver in front of another officer to test the legal waters.

[MinisterofDOOM]

That's ridiculous. What are you supposed to do if there is no turning lane? Never turn left?

No. Simply turn left somewhere else.

[OriginalWheelman]

Everything I've read in the last few days say a double yellow line does not mean no turning, it means do not pass. I was turning into a driveway and there was not a turning lane where I was attempting to turn. The only things I read about crossing the double yellow being illegal are to cross them while turning at an intersection.

[Bubba1]

If its that important to you, you could always visit the local police station in that town and ask them for a clarification. Just because you can't find your infraction on line, does not mean you're in the clear.

[OriginalWheelman]

The problem as I see it, is the interpretation of the word 'driveway.' I've looked at NY and TN as those are the states I've been driving in for the last 20 years, and compared those to Utah where it happened and Oregon where I live now. Hardly a comprehensive list but the relevant ones to me. Each state, with the exception of New York specifically states 'driveways' as the acceptable reason to turn left over a double yellow. New York says 'to leave the highway' which is a much clearer phrase. The problem seems to arise from the way the other laws are worded. Different municipalities define 'driveway' differently. It's legal s***. In Oregon and Tennessee a business is explicitly defined as a driveway. Utah does not make any clarification at all within the context of it's uniform traffic code or it's zoning laws. It is very possible that it is illegal in Utah but it is definitely not the standard in all states.

[float_6969]

If I was in that position, I would have gone further up the road when it was OK to enter the turn lane, and then made a U-turn OR do what I often have to do in my work truck (since the turning radius is crap) which is to pull into another business, turn around and make a right turn into the other lane. In drivers ed in Kansas we were taught to treat a double solid yellow like a concrete wall, unless you were pulling into a residence, but NOT a business. In the small highways of Kansas, there are often stretches of road where doing anything to but stopping on a 2 lane highway to turn left across a double yellow to turn into a residence is the only sane option as it could literally be miles before there is a spot where you could make a u-turn, and even then the highway is so narrow, only but the smallest car could make that turn in a single try.

That being said, I don't know how the actual statutes read, that's just what we were taught.

[OriginalWheelman]

It's not like I sat there forever. I came around the corner, and stopped. No one was behind me. In NY, the cars stopping would have expected me to be making a left and let me into the parking lot, problem solved. Instead, I sat there waiting for the traffic to stop short of the driveway and let me pull in. I realized they weren't going to, took my foot off the brake to keep going, and the cop came around the corner and turned on his lights. I was there for less than 10 seconds, not like I was sitting there all day. It's not that dangerous and I'm amazed at how you guys think it is. I have made turns like this my whole life. In states that belonged to this country before the Louisiana purchase, there are almost no turning lanes. Our roads were designed for horse drawn carts and We pay attention, and we make turns like this multiple times a day safely.
You get out west here where none of these towns were formed before 1849 and they have open roads and turning lanes everywhere. Roads that would make a New Yorker jealous, and in exchange you can't use them. Everyone is afraid to turn left on a wide open road where you can see miles in both directions. In New York we make left's like this on blind corners on 2 lanes with no speed limit. The better an area is to drive in, the more s*** the drivers are. Spoiled.

[float_6969]

I guess I viewed it like having a brake light out. He pulls you over and say, "Hey, you can't do that. You're not getting a ticket, but I'm just letting you know for next time." If you would have gotten a ticket, that would have been douchey of him.

[OriginalWheelman]

Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I understand now what I was doing wrong, and how the turn I tried to make is illegal in Utah. It's just frustrating to get pulled over and have no idea what the cop is talking about. If he had explained to me that I can't cross a double yellow in Utah, that would have been nice. He didn't, he just kept explaining how a turning lane worked. I was honestly concerned that I had been doing this wrong my entire life, because I had never heard of this, and I once read the NYS vehicle and traffic code cover to cover.

It's just another one of those little things that's different from state to state. Thank god Oregon isn't like this. In Oregon, U-Turns are illegal. How the hell would anyone get anywhere if you can't turn left and you can't u-turn? I guess I just would hope a cop working less than a mile off of the Interstate would be a little more familiar with how his state's laws differ.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Yeah, U-turns are always allowed unless signage is posted to the contrary in Utah, so I imagine that's a factor. I always get thrown off in places where that's not the case, because I'm so used to being able to just swing around and get on my way.

[OriginalWheelman]

Yeah me too. I got pulled over my second week here for making a u-turn. The officer was polite, said he noticed I was from out of state, and took a few minutes to explain to me how the laws in Oregon differ from other states. He then ran my plates and license, and sent me on my way. All in all a good experience.

[Dattebayo]

So calling it the U-state is actually very apt. Huh.

[Jesda]

Utah sounds like a place that inhales d!ck.

I can turn left over a double yellow here if I'm entering a driveway or street. If I had to wait for an intersection, that could force me to go 50 miles down the road depending on where I am.

Double yellow universally means NO PASSING, not NO TURNING. If it meant NO TURNING then rural roads and county highways would be farked.


Utah's laws were written by a bunch of racist polygamist pigfarkers.

[RicerX]

Double yellow universally means NO PASSING, not NO TURNING. If it meant NO TURNING then rural roads and county highways would be farked.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I was reading this entire thing. Between backwoods Alabama and upstate NY, I'd have an extra 500,000 miles on my cars for how much extra driving I'd have to do if I couldn't turn across a double yellow.