Dinan breaks the torque barrier

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

You've always seen I've used 75 lb/feet per liter as the limit for production cars.......now Dinan has succeeded in getting to 83.8 lb/ft per liter at 5,000 rpm on a 4.999 liter BMW M5.But each cylinder is fed from a seperate TB [8 in all]. It only cost $40,000 to get the package......and another 76 HP

Still a Q with just a JWT ecu [$695] delivering 337/4.494= 74.98 lb/ft per liter is still pretty impressive

"The S2 kit provides a high-flow, cold-air intake system crafted from carbon fiber, high-flow mass airflow meters, bored throttle bodies and tuned velocity stacks. Extracting spent gas is an F1-quality anti-reversionary header system feeding a free-flowing exhaust that weighs 29 pounds less than stock. Says Dinan, “We stayed away from internal modifications for cost and longevity reasons. Our dealers must be able to install our packages without difficulty.” Dinan cars carry a four-year, 50,000-mile warranty to match BMW’s, which is good, because such mods ordinarily void manufacturer warranties.

If the M5 is stinking fast, the S2 reeks of power. Pointed toward a drag strip by Dinan, we hacked off a couple of 0-to-60 runs that produced more Sturm than Drang. It maxes out at 419 lb-ft at 5000 rpm. Wheelspin is a problem. Though Dinan has increased front tire section width by 30 millimeters (from 245 to 275), rears have grown just 10 milli-meters (from 275 to 285). With the amount of torque this car makes at launch—399 lb-ft at 2000 rpm—the 285/35ZR-18 Michelin Pilot Sports are more overwhelmed than Napoleon at Waterloo. Something on the order of a 315-mm-wide rear roller might handle the torque. "http://www.autoweek.com/cat_co...30890

"The Imola Red sedan weighs in like a heavyweight at 3965 pounds, " same as a 90Q

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

good stuff.thanks Dennis.

Fred..

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Another car company [BMW] that thinks Michelin Pilot Sports are the only Tire suitable for a performaance car besides the G35c.

Remember Michelin is a French company so if some German tire was better even equal, even Japan Bstone [SO3] would be perferable if they could get them to work.

It must irk them to no end.

That Continental can't

Post by **lessthanjakejohn** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Who is Dinan? A specialised tuner of BMW?

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

lessthanjakejohn wrote:Who is Dinan? A specialised tuner of BMW?

Yes,

a bit like AMG or Brabus are for MB.more like brabus since AMG is a part of MB now while Brabus isnt.

M division is part of BMW, but outfits like Dinan or Alpina arent.

Fred..

Post by **lessthanjakejohn** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Thats cool, but damn 40,000 dollars for only 76 hp, money is better spent elsewhere

Post by **nlzmo400r** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

lessthanjakejohn wrote:Thats cool, but damn 40,000 dollars for only 76 hp, money is better spent elsewhere

:withstup

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

The point was the BMW Z8/M5 engine was ALREADY so finely tuned and designed from the factory that it takes extraordinary money to get incremental gains!

Just like the early Q, once you remove some of the factory built in safety factor [ecu reprogramming] don't think a louder exhaust or no air filter at all will even gain you 10 EXTRA HP!

They could have supercharged the engine for less but at the ALREADY MARGINAL 11:1 CR... [would give you fits]..........the base 375 lb/ft only increased by 45 lb/ft for all the efficiency improvements [12%].............roughly what a 3-4 psi intercooled boost would do.

Their improvements were at 2,000 rpms also so an Eaton type SC would be required [uck extra heat to get rid of [where to put a large intercooler]]..........no room and destroy the look of a $100,000 car.

BMW chickened out at 4.998 liters [5.000 liters would have added $3,000 per year in road taxes in Germany].

These are cars owners just write checks to buy. Doesn't everyone keep $100,000 in money market checking for those little day to day expenses.

http://www.dinanbmw.com/default.htm

Post by **hannibal** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

the Dinan S2-M5 goes 0-60 in 4.1, 0-100 in 10.0, and runs the 1/4 mile in 12.7 secs @ 113 (from car & driver Nov 02) and Dinan says it can hit 190 mph.They tuned this car to the very edge. Check out the intake runners Q45tech refered to...

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Runners are the same design as Q just sitting open in the plenum not cast into the sides of it and the roof comes off [of the plenum] for cleaning.

Note from the article how Dinan enlarges the runner inside diameter ever so slightly [4%?] to raise the peak torque rpm........unfortunately they don't graph the below 2000 rpm to show the consequental drop from raising the peak rpm.

Having 8 individual 1.7" throttle bodies [2.26 sq in] vs a single 3" [7.1 sq in] and 2 MAF vs 1 MAF allow the torque curve to fall half as fast [slope of curve] from 5000 to 7,000 rpm vs Q 4,000 to 6900 rpm.

Unfortunately the Q intake valves [2 x 1.5"] diameter [3.53 sq "] less curtain area vs lift [0.75 correction factor] yields an effective area of ~~~ 2.65 square inches. Pretty well limiting the HP peak rpm to 6300 rpm vs 7,000 for the BMW - limiting Q peak to 13% lower based on equal size cylinders.

So if you spent/did everything Dinan did to a BMW you would still be 3-4% short based on displacement equality.

Why external mods don't yield as much results: The Q was designed as a lower rpm engine to survive lugability down to 1300-1500 rpm for use with an AT vs BMW 6 speed.

Post by **EWT** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

I want one! I got a ride in a friend's stock M5 a couple of weeks ago, and it was amazingly fast for a 4 door sedan. I can't imagine what the Dinan version feels like. 394 hp in streetable tune from <5L of normally asprirated motor is impressive enough. That's amazing that Dinan was able to squeeze that much more out of it.

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

When you look at other Dinan mods [for other model BMW] you see the same increments of gains.......ecu mods, TB boreouts, larger MAF, intakes, exhausts, headers, cams [pre OBD2]. Superchargers are big with Dinan now that OBD2 is here!

In the article they stated that over 1200 dyno runs were done to get and confirm the improvements.

Thats $50,000 in in house dyno runs alone.

Hope they seel at least 15 units to cover their HALF MILLION development costs.

Post by **maxnix** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Of note also in the Autoweek article is that the modified M5 is now seriously undertired in the rear and on that day was not quite able to improve on previous times recorded by the magazine for a stock M5 on another occasion.

M5's are neat for mid to top speed runs, tight handling and close friends as passengers, but not to maintain or just use around town in heavy traffic.

Post by **nlzmo400r** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

that is absolutely crazy and so impractical i cant even begin to explain how over the top that is for a luxury sedan.......i want one!!

Post by **lessthanjakejohn** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Q45tech wrote:You've always seen I've used 75 lb/feet per liter as the limit for production cars.......now Dinan has succeeded in getting to 83.8 lb/ft per liter at 5,000 rpm on a 4.999 liter BMW M5.

What do you mean??

A Dinan tuned BMW isn't a production car is it?

Post by **maxnix** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

lessthanjakejohn wrote:A Dinan tuned BMW isn't a production car is it?

It is when you can buy it from a dealer with full factory warranty. Read the articles.

Post by **lessthanjakejohn** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

maxnix wrote:It is when you can buy it from a dealer with full factory warranty. Read the articles.

hehe finally read the article

Post by **Eswift** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

come on dennis.

this is no new news for Dinan.

93.6 ft-lb per litre on the e30 M3 tuned by dinan. circa 1992.

i quoth:

"At that time Dinan was only offering a 2.5 litre engine for the M3, producing 245 horsepower and 234 ft/lb of torque"

no torque barrier was broken with the new dinan M5.

Post by **Jberger** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

This is without a blower, that's why it's sooo impressive.

If I'm not mistaken, the M3 used a blower.I had an e30 M3, it ran like a bat out of hell, esp. for a 4 cyl.

Post by **nlzmo400r** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

they were 4s??, i thought they used a tiny 6 (2.5)

Post by **Eswift** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Jberger wrote:This is without a blower, that's why it's sooo impressive.

If I'm not mistaken, the M3 used a blower.I had an e30 M3, it ran like a bat out of hell, esp. for a 4 cyl.

there WAS a version with forced induction, but the numbers i quoted were for the highest-tuned dinan NA iteration.

thus i stand by my previous statement.

not amazingly impressive.

Post by **Eswift** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

nlzmo400r wrote:they were 4s??, i thought they used a tiny 6 (2.5)

all E30 M3s utilized an inline 4 cyl.

Post by **Q45tech** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Since 1996 [OBD2] has lowered the available torque, kind of like starting over again...........sure 90-95 lb/ft per liter is doable on ultimate race engines or Indy on Methanol but not on an engine that meets emissions.

For Cal emission legal NA engines [with single or dual TBs]from manufactures 75 lb/ft is still pretty much it till direct injection gets produced then another 9-13% will be available

Post by **Eswift** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

no reason to stop at 2 throttle bodies

Post by **nlzmo400r** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

o, ok, well how big are the straigh 6s now?, 3.3 liters rite??, or is it just 3

Post by **OLU40** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Hi guys. Long time. Too bad BMW can't engineer enough quality and reliability to match engineering success. That is their major problem. Or is it they impor the trash and keep all the good stuff as a bad joke?

Post by **Eswift** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

i think the current M3 resides below 3.3, something like 3.24ish.

despite the name, i am pretty sure the 330 BMWs have a displacement still just below 3L.

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

just thinking, it sure would be great if F1 would publish their real torque output. it would be nice to see the absolute limit of naturaly aspirated technology in torque ouput. anyone have inside info? i guess we could work backwards. in 1999 mclaren broke 800 hp(ferrari was at like 795 or something). some F1 journalists(great source to go by i know) reported 810 from the mclarens. i dont remember how high they were revving back then though. i heard on speed channel(another bulletproof source,lol) they would hit 19,000rpm. that was this year. well so many holes and secondary sources that i wont even try to work this out. if you have better info then let us know.

Post by **Eswift** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

18000rpms in 2000 so thats not too suprising.

Post by **Def** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:33 am

Actually, I've heard from a few M5 owners themselves(in person) that the DINAN S2 package is BS, and doesn't make near the advertised HP. Supposedly some people bought it, and dyno'd the gains - the let their lawyers take care of things(these are BMW owners BTW

).

Quote »Just like the early Q, once you remove some of the factory built in safety factor [ecu reprogramming] don't think a louder exhaust or no air filter at all will even gain you 10 EXTRA HP![/quote]Actually, the M5 motor makes about 10-15rwhp with just free-flowing intakes instead of the stock airbox. Exhausts see pretty decent gains as well. The motor makes alot of HP for the displacement stock, but that just means there is more to unlock with less restrictive breathing components.

As for the TQ/L barrier, this motor is nothing. Look at this dyno of a naturally aspirated, daily driven Honda motor. It has a 1932cc displacement and the factory pistons(10.7:1 CR, not that high).

Since this is to the front wheels, it is safe to say this car is making AT LEAST 185 ft-lbs to the flywheel. That's over 95 ft-lbs/L to the flywheel - and it's still making close to that amount over 8000RPM!

There are daily driven, lightly modded motors making even more than this naturally aspirated, but this was the first Honda dyno I came across at a board I frequent.

BTW - M5's are fast, I get passed by them all the time at the track like I'm standing still.

Dinan breaks the torque barrier

Dinan breaks the torque barrier

What day is this?

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