Digging back into plenum. Yay.

[paranoidjack]

OK, well, not surprisingly, things aren't perfect and I need to tear plenum back apart again. Due to the condition of some of the components, and lack of cash to replace all, I feared I would be in there again soon. Some of you may remember I just typed a walkthrough on how to do it here:

zer...s-now

Well, since the job I've had a slight coolant odor. I thought perhaps it was burn off (small amount I couldn't get out with baster, but it's been there now for a week and a half. For the first time since I've owned her, the car started to slightly overheat yesterday. Heat on full blast, she made it home without getting hot. Can't identify a leak, although still has a slight coolant odor. I'm thinking the 4" badboy running in the valley, as it didn't fit quite perfectly the 2nd time around.

I have 3 codes also, showing up to 2 or 3 times sometimes when scanning:

1) p1105 MAP sensor Switch Solenoid Valve2) p1140 (Intake Valve timing Control Position Sensor)3) p0330 (knock sensor, right bank) ---- WHAT?! Can't be.

No, I didn't pull the harness and ohm the KS yet. Haven't had a chance.

Car drives TERRIBLY all of a sudden. From 0-2500 RPM, anything more than 10% throttle will bog the car so bad it won't move. This is ONLY after the first 2-3 minutes of driving - even if you turn it off and on when warm, it will operate well for the first few minutes. In neutral car revs fine up to redline, so ruling out Fuel Pump. It's also extremely intermittent, which helps rule out the fuel pump. The idle hasn't been perfect since reassembly - a *slight* hesitation when rpm's are dropping to idle rpm, at about 1200. Pauses for 3/4 second before dropping to normal idle of 650.

So, really not sure what the exact issue is.

I'll ohm the KS before disassembly, but I could do the whole job again in 3 hours (especially without disassembling the EGR, IACV, TB, or cleaning runners).

A lesson to those who don't replace hoses under plenum - even if the hose SEEMS fine, underneath the clamp the rubber is compressed over heat and years to conform to how it is seated. Once this factory virgin love is unseated, my guess is it's a crapshoot whether you can ever get a perfectly reliable seal again.

I didn't replace hoses because I didn't have the money to. Now I'm doing it anyway 2 weeks later (still without the money, but also without a choice).

Argh!

Still glad I did it myself, for the record. Although Andy was right - sometimes you can open Pandora's box if you're not careful. In my case, I fear I cleaned all coolant stems TOO much perhaps - I think some of the "cake" on the nozzles aided to form a perfect seal with the "formed" hoses. Now that the gunk is gone, I think one of them has a hairpin leak.

The FSM is a bit confusing when diagnosing 2 of my 3 codes without a consult (MAP sensor and Intake Valve Timing Sensor), so not really looking forward to doing this.

Angry at not finding a way to get all hoses before, as I now have to do this all again.

[maxnix]

Lesson learned, good looking hoses can be scarey on the inside.

Have a CEL I will address tomorrow on my wife's FGY33.

[elwesso]

Are you sure you got all the air out of the cooling system? Sometimes it can be tricky and if you're not low on coolant I'd maybe not fear a leak. Remember that ethylene glycol raises the boiling temperature so its not going to evaporate very quick if you had a bunch down there.. When I did the plenum(s) i hosed it down really good with a garden hose afterward...

Have you checked for vacuum leaks? Taking WD40 or something that mists well and spraying it around suspect hoses/connections can help identify vacuum leaks..

Did you clear your codes? My guess is the KS and VTC codes are there is because you unplugged their connectors.

I would disregard the codes and think about the symptoms and what you could have done under the plenum that could have caused this... I dont like coincidences...

[paranoidjack]

Yeah, I cleared, reran, cleared, reran 10x in the last 2 weeks. The codes are consistent.

You know - today, I was listening under the hood. I could swear I heard a distinct vacuum leak coming from deep within the valley of darkness. I was unsure, but rather certain I've never heard it before.

Then I researched the MAP sensor location in the FSM. Seems our friend the MAP sensor has 1 electrical connector, and THREE vaccum lines coming out of it, so perhaps one of them came off or sprung a leak? We'll see.

p1140, I damaged the connector during reassembly and am not surprised it's tripping. Need to remove from car and repair. This is the sensor seen in this image, gray plug by my middle finger.

p1105, MAP - fearing that sensor is disconnected. Perhaps I forgot to connect it; perhaps I merely connected like a girly girl, and it slipped off.

Light gray connector by my middle finger:I have no idea how the KS code was tripped, as recently as yesterday, when the job has been done for weeks without it showing that code. I also don't like coincidences...

I have no idea how this is showing failure, as I never removed it from bracket.

Honestly, after the first time the plenum job (on a y33 at least) isn't bad. It's really just half the harness and a few bolts. I'm just hoping I can access the MAP sensor connector without removing rails and lower runners. I dno't think those pintle caps can stand another rail removal.

Is there a bleeder nipple on our cars anywhere, or do we just bleed through the radiator cap?
Modified by paranoidjack at 6:19 PM 6/4/2009

[3Q Jay]

no bleeder nipple that i'm aware of.my first thought on the overheat was also trapped air, eespecially if you don't see any fresh leaks.2 ways:the sure way is to put a tight fitting funnel in the upper neck (note: ALWAYS use the top neck (not the cap on the radiator) to fill). with a good seal, over fill the bottom of the funnel by 2-3 inches and as the t-stat opens you should get some bubbles and the level in your 'funnel tank' will go down as the liquid replaces air. LISLE tool makes a specialty kit for this at about $20 from any ____tool.com joint.the other way is to put the front of the car on ramps, or a steep driveway while filling (no funnel) so that physical cosine laws do the same thing for you.your picture of 'parts' was very helpful to me in deriving my list of gaskets for when i do this. after you have the hoses, please post up part numbers or pictures with the part numbers on the air/water hoses shown for reference.

[NightRiderQ45]

Man, I hate to hear that you are having issues. Hopefully you will get it running back properly! After reading the multiple plenum cleanings on this site, I've told myself that I will NEVER clean my plenum. I've cleaned my TB before, but I won't touch the plenum. My car is 200k and drives great.

Good luck!!

[paranoidjack]

Man, I hate to hear that you are having issues. Hopefully you will get it running back properly! After reading the multiple plenum cleanings on this site, I've told myself that I will NEVER clean my plenum. I've cleaned my TB before, but I won't touch the plenum. My car is 200k and drives great.

Good luck!!

All will be OK, despite my ramblings above. 3 issues: MAP sensor in valley by KS's, probably just not connected, bad o2 sensor, and the image shows the gray connector I accidentally pulled wires out of.

I'll get at her on Friday probably, maybe as late as Wednesday. I anticipate 2 hours to get to MAP sensor, and 3 hours for reassembly and changing of hoses and o2 sensor.
Modified by paranoidjack at 6:21 PM 6/4/2009

[slybydesignq45t]

I didn't think the Y33 had comparable issues such as the one your expressing like the G50 did. This is interesting.

[paranoidjack]

no bleeder nipple that i'm aware of.my first thought on the overheat was also trapped air, eespecially if you don't see any fresh leaks.2 ways:the sure way is to put a tight fitting funnel in the upper neck (note: ALWAYS use the top neck (not the cap on the radiator) to fill). with a good seal, over fill the bottom of the funnel by 2-3 inches and as the t-stat opens you should get some bubbles and the level in your 'funnel tank' will go down as the liquid replaces air. LISLE tool makes a specialty kit for this at about $20 from any ____tool.com joint.the other way is to put the front of the car on ramps, or a steep driveway while filling (no funnel) so that physical cosine laws do the same thing for you.your picture of 'parts' was very helpful to me in deriving my list of gaskets for when i do this. after you have the hoses, please post up part numbers or pictures with the part numbers on the air/water hoses shown for reference.

Good info Jay, thanks. I'll post some pics up when I get the parts for sure. Glad to hear mine was helpful to you.

I didn't think the Y33 had comparable issues such as the one your expressing like the G50 did. This is interesting.

What do you mean sly? Hose wear?

I'm pretty sure my issues are self-caused: broken connector on one, and poorly (if at all) connector on the MAP sensor.

I topped off the coolant, haven't lost a drop yet, so hopefully that was just air working itself out, and it IS getting warmer out....although I hate the thought of those tired old hoses in there now. Kills me. Will probably take it apart again just to change them!


Modified by paranoidjack at 6:24 PM 6/4/2009

[elwesso]

I didn't think the Y33 had comparable issues such as the one your expressing like the G50 did. This is interesting.

We're going to see a lot more Y33 owners going through the same drama as G50 owners did 4-5 years ago... Maybe minus the injector issues...

No free lunch on V8 luxury sedans, boys!

[paranoidjack]

We're going to see a lot more Y33 owners going through the same drama as G50 owners did 4-5 years ago... Maybe minus the injector issues...

No free lunch on V8 luxury sedans, boys!

Yeah, we get coilpacks.

Although I'll take coilpacks over injectors ANY day of the week!

[bullittandy]

I hate to hear that you're having these problems.

Without sounding like my father in law who loves to say "I could've told that was gonna happen" but this is an example of what happens when you take complicated stuff apart.

Still, I feel your pain because i've been there-good luck. Fix what you know is broken and go from there.

-A

[paranoidjack]

Today I did the whole job. 7 hours including setup and cleanup. Repaired the broken connector causing the Intake error above, and that also seemed to resolve the MAP code.

Pulled it all apart again, replaced that nasty large hose (that WAS leaking anyway) with a BEAST of an industrial grade hose I grabbed from a local truck service center. I would have gotten OEM but thought this would be finished today, once and for all.

So, get it all together. Bleed the coolant system. Take it for a drive - feels great. SAME PROBLEM AGAIN!!! This makes the second time I have removed the plenum in under 1000 miles.

Gas up, heading home, all of a sudden, bogs down hard. Car will only accelerate under 1800-2200 rpm. Anything above that is bog, or a hard press will downshift and it just feels wrong as the timing is clearly quite retarded.

I tested those KS's today, without the harness. In my hands. Both were well within factory specifications and ohm'd fine.

I neglected to test the harness as I was confused by the numbered terminals in the FSM and assumed the first KS code had been tripped by the puddle of coolant in the valley that was leaking from the bigboy hose.

All, to no avail. It seems that I'll be doing this again very soon.

What else could it possibly be? It has to be the harness, right? If the KS's ohm'd fine (and weren't broken or brittle-brand new OEM), it HAS to be the harness?

I know, I've seen the pic floating around of the g50 harness with the FI and KS ohming instructions on it, but thought the issue was the puddle.

I'll order the harness tomorrow. Can anyone think of anything else that might be causing the p0330?

Again, a lesson learned the hard way.

1) Replace all coolant hoses or you'll be under the plenum again.

2) Replace the KS harness despite what you may have read on this forum about KS harnesses being fine on a y33, or you'll be in there a THIRD TIME within 1000 miles.

However, after doing this a second time and cutting time by 40%, I think I can do the third time is less than 4 hours, especially since lower runners and injectors may not have to come off.

If it were light outside, I would go right back out now.

The one good thing that came out of this repeat scenario was the following picture. I just liked the way it came out, with the evil KS lines dangling around the VH41 stamp:



Here's a shot of the beast hose I got for the split neck, love how strong it felt in my hands:




Modified by paranoidjack at 8:59 PM 6/17/2009

[bullittandy]

Blame Brian, he's the only one that rec's taking off the plenum. He also had a problem that required him to take his plenum off again as well.

-A

Good luck and lo siento.

[paranoidjack]

Blame Brian, he's the only one that rec's taking off the plenum. He also had a problem that required him to take his plenum off again as well.

-A

Good luck and lo siento.

Hehe - honestly, Brian helped me quite a bit through this process via email and I thank him for his assistance. The FSM and my neurotic sense of perfection made me do it!

What else would I have done today? Cleaned the house, played a video game, etc....

Time spent on my car is good time no matter what the outcome (unless something blows up!).

[maxnix]

Check MAF connection carefully and that intake air temperature sensor is not just dangling in the engine compartment.

[paranoidjack]

Check MAF connection carefully and that intake air temperature sensor is not just dangling in the engine compartment.

? But I have a p0330 Bank 2 KS code?

You're saying the sluggishness could be from the MAF, which was never touched throughout the plenum jobs? Not tripping a code, and when cold or recently turned on, car operates 110%.

Possible I guess - but coincidences are pretty rare with cars I've found.

It feels like a KS, and it is reading KS - I'm inclined to think KS. As I tested them both at 550ish, it must be the harness.

[maxnix]

Could be more than one thing.

2nd O2 sensor seems to have caused similar but less severe symptoms on my wife's car.

[3Q Jay]

did you ever get this resolved?

I have a post plenum ses issue on the fgy33 but on the TPS.

will start new thread.