Project "Baller"

Post by **saf** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:43 pm

hotgemini wrote:Self-assembled braided lines for the brakes are neither legal, nor would I consider/use/recommend them even if they were.

Legal ... is a very broad word, the whole car in this thread is illegal by Aus Nazi DOT / ADR standards. As far as useage, the best line time and time again, are Speedflow lines. I run these on my track cars, and also on my superbike / street bikes. Never had better feel, goodridge, galfer etc etc, second to Speedflow. I dont know why, but the teflon lines are sensational.

hotgemini wrote:It looks like you're intending to run braided lines for the length of the car for the brakes, this is a bad idea,

Agree with what you wrote !

hotgemini wrote:I'm also not that excited by the prospect of piles of stainless steel braided hose in the engine bay, looks like a lot of work, money and effort for no performance gain, I mean heck, the low-pressure feed line to the power-steering pump?

Agree again, it could have easily had a braided line slip over with a braided line cap / clamp for a braided line look.

meminto, Give you credit, looks like a fantastic build, and people need to stick it to them SR drivers .... haters that they are.

The things that spot out to me are the following. Your wanting to make 5,6 even 700 hp if you can, but your wanting the engine to breathe out of a pair of -8 pcv's. Id look into -10's for sure- even 12's maybe. With gas expansion and blow by, its a lot of air it has to displace via those two lines.

Oil pump. I see your running a Nissan OEM pump. You have a TRUST turbo, spent money on cams, did all of the head etc etc etc, and your running a OEM pump ! . ooof ... you have much larger testicles than i .

I am shooting for a safe 500 horses on this new motor for my Skyline, and without thought a dry sump system is a given. Food for thought .... i have seen failed stock pumps on less power.

Post by **meminto** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:05 pm

Thanks for your response..

I have redesigned the cooling system as I have no need for a number of coolant hoses any longer (mostly turbo coolant lines), I chose proper braided lines for the reliability factor and ease of serviceability (although I doubt i will need to replace a line for quite some time) the ca18det is not the easiest of motors to change hoses on. In my opinion braided over stock rubber looks tacky and does not suit the purpose I intended.

The braid lines are speedflow for the brakes, I have read through the number of ADR's (eg, ADR 42 inc brakes) in relation to my modifications and they can be approved by an suitable engineer. The NOS cant be used on the street, and I don't intend too.. I don't beleive my entire vehicle is illegal, but I will ensure an engineer has certified what needs to be certified..

I dont see a real problem with the dash 8 lines, (I have dash 12 coming off the crankcase) unfortunatley I dont know the velocity of the blow by gas escaping so I cannot calculate the flow (and loss) correctly, I know cross sectional area values but not the key value I need...

The believe the new oem pump will hold up fine, I have performed my research, I dont require stupid amounts of rpm to do this, but unfortunately there are no real alternatives...

Cheers..

Ohh, out of curiosity, if you have seen oem pumps fail on less hp can you let me know which types they were, assuming you cracked them open to investigate the cause? cheers
Modified by meminto at 1:09 AM 11/29/2008

Post by **saf** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:41 am

meminto wrote:The braid lines are speedflow for the brakes, I have read through the number of ADR's (eg, ADR 42 inc brakes) in relation to my modifications and they can be approved by an suitable engineer.

I cant say what your state laws are like, but from what i understand, no screw together lines are allowed, enginqueer or not.

meminto wrote:I don't beleive my entire vehicle is illegal, but I will ensure an engineer has certified what needs to be certified..

Yea thats fine. I didnt mean it as every bolt , but what im saying is the car will always have something on it that will not conform. Again i cant quote your state law, but FMIC conversions, confilct with ADR's , TV on the dash, does too, aftermarket ECU's that dont comply with DOT emiisions testing approved by EPA, dont comply, you see where im going. I mean that there is always something that they can ping you for, and my cars are all illegal. Such is life.

meminto wrote:I dont see a real problem with the dash 8 lines, (I have dash 12 coming off the crankcase) unfortunatley I dont know the velocity of the blow by gas escaping so I cannot calculate the flow (and loss) correctly, I know cross sectional area values but not the key value I need...

You cant calculate such issues, im only talking from exp as this is what i do for a living. Nothing would piss me off more than putting undersized ventilation on a engine for a customer for him to call me at 11pm on a saturday night that his front main seal popped out and the car lost all its oil and spun a bearing.

meminto wrote:The believe the new oem pump will hold up fine, I have performed my research,

I only spoke because i have living proof and exp. I have seen them fail. I know they fail. Id never do more than 400hp on a CA without dry sump. The pump is crap as most nissan pumps, it doesnt even hold 1/20th to say a 3S-GTE toyota timing belt driven pump, that will happily do 800hp. If your bearing clearance is a smidgein on the tight side, and it pressurises the pump too much, it will fail at 700hp.

Its not so much RPM that kills pumps, its power. At 100hp and 7000rpm, the load on the crank is 100hp. At 700hp and 7000rpm, the load on the crank goes up ten fold, as with rods. These run on oil pressure and live only by floating.

Sure you can put a bleed system inline, and say limit your peak pressure to 65psi and built your bottom end accordingly (and always something to consider) but your mending a broken wheel, not inventing a new one, thats lighter and faster.

Going OEM pump on bigh hp is in my books (and exp) insane, and expensive in the long run.

meminto wrote:I dont require stupid amounts of rpm to do this, but unfortunately there are no real alternatives...

Ohh, out of curiosity, if you have seen oem pumps fail on less hp can you let me know which types they were, assuming you cracked them open to investigate the cause? cheers

There are much much better alternatives. Dry sump. To make your motor work, you updgraded the flow with a turbo, you put in a big IC to cool that, you will want oil coolers to cool the oil .... and the engine is makeing many times more power than stock , but your on a OEM oil curcuit. That makes no sence to me at all. LOL.

The gear from the crank drive fails.

But hey, thats my 5c

Post by **meminto** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:47 am

Thanks for your input..

Post by **saf** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:42 am

LOL, ok.

Post by **meminto** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:06 pm

Actually, I have been reading some interesting posts of yours on silviawa..

How did you fair in politics?

Post by **saf** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:18 pm

Terrible. The car/bike community for what its worth, didnt support the idea based on things they mostly knew nothing about, so support was low, and in the end the party didnt see enough support to steamroll me into the side into a active and chainging role. I could have been (maybe) a backbencher leech that syphons on the system .... but thats not me.

Nowadays im trying to push for change by talking to the pollies i have met in the time i pursued this goal. Ahh well ...

Post by **meminto** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:14 am

No worries, I don't want this thread to go off topic, but you have satisfied my curiosity...

Cheers

Post by **meminto** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:32 am

Still havent had a chance to pick the motor up yet, working on other aspects in the mean time..

As soon as I have the motor, I will take some more snaps...

Post by **Rin5** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:15 am

woah!! baller status indeed on the diamond plate but is benefit?

it looks like it is covering the radiator and the circle where the fan is, is the only cooling spot. other than that...it looks imac!

Post by **meminto** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:02 am

Its all sealed around the sides, there is an inch of space between the plate and the radiator so air is being directed throught the radiator and diverted back out through the single point where the thermo is sitting..

Post by **karism** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:15 am

Hi,

Very nice job on the build! I like it!

I must advise against covering the area around the rad fan ,even if it has gap.

The reason for this : The air will not easilly pass through the rad with the closed off area.

You will also be making your fan less efficient,as there will be a gap(formed so the air can pass through the rad when not blowing).The fan will rather draw around around the core,than through it,as it is easier.

In effect you will have a loose-loose situation,as the rad fan wont work efficiently and neither will the air through the rad without the fan.

Rather remove the plate and mount the fan directly on the core of the rad,making sure there are no area of gap at the surround of the fan.If there is a gap,close it with some some exanding foam tape

Not allot of people know that a rad needs only to have 30% coverage by air(or fan) to work effectively.This is why a fan can cool the temps,even if it doesnt cover 100% of the rad

See,my rad fan sits snug as a bug against the core of the rad

Karis

Post by **meminto** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:41 am

Hi, Cheers for the reply, I have sealed all the edges so the only air that can be pulled through by the fan is through the front of the radiator...

When the vehicle is in motion the air will be pushed through and out the hole where the thermo fan is...

Do you have any documented evidence of cooling temps being affected by my exact setup? If so can you please post it up so I can review?

Cheers...

Post by **karism** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:25 am

You are welcome!

Well,i dont have any hard documentation on it.Will have to go search

I have done a few viscous to electric conversions over the years,and it did have a noticeable effect when the area around the fan was closed off.

Will your car be drifted??

Post by **saf** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:31 pm

I agree with Kar, loose the plate for eff.

I dont have a link on the net to proove you wrong, but what you have done is made the radiator surface area 14" (looks like a 14) round in flow, even less when you consider the motor and blades.

Shrouded fans work great with butterfly bladed (the big pitch, big blades) clutch fans, as on the S13, Supra etc etc. They work great because they work all the time, and they are set back quite a ways , hence having a lot of displacement behind the rad to shed the heat energy.

A thermatic fan is only there for slow and stopped driving. Anytime you are moving, even at 50kph in subburbia, thats more air than the fan will flow itself, hence you will not have fan activity when you drive, and its when you drive you need to get the air in, and out in the best possible way.

With a thermo, its easy to cool down (not needing a shroud to be eff) when your stopped, as your on .5% cycle duty, 0% throttle and making a hp in heat energy.

Sucks when you make something to loose it, but honestly i would as its going to harm its cooling when driving.

Post by **meminto** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:20 pm

I am happy to receive all kinds of feedback good bad and indifferent, I take suggestions and opinions on board, however:

Thanks for your replies guys, but will people please stop telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing based on one photo and without FACTUAL and CONCLUSIVE data...

I know why a thermo fan is there, how it works and why it works (it is 16" not 14") I understand the theory behind what you are posting, however no-one yet has provided me with any evidence to back up what they are posting.

Until someone provides consistant and conclusive data to the contrary, I am sticking to my guns and staying with my design until such times as..

a) I feel that there is a cooling issue with my design, based on data I gather whilst in operation, in which I will post my findings for everyone to read..

b) See a)

I appreciate your efforts and your opinions, but please link me to your project, so I can see all the hundreds of hours of research and development that you have performed...

Cheers...

Post by **saf** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:29 pm

meminto wrote:I appreciate your efforts and your opinions, but please link me to your project, so I can see all the hundreds of hours of research and development that you have performed...

Cheers...

Mem, Understood, and fair enough mate.

I only chimed in to help you with what it is you want to achieve. I have been race-prepping / fabricating / tuning cars and bikes for a long time, i only chimed in for help you would otherwise pay for. Ive seen a few simple mistakes (not of my opinion only, but both ANDRA / CAMS tech and logical race car building) you have made so far, and from memory you said you were a IT person .. so i thought id help a brother out. Ill sit this one out from now.

Good luck with it.

Post by **meminto** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:45 pm

That wasnt entirely directed at you, I just replied....

If you have technical data or documentation from andra/cams then please share it with me and the rest of us...

Post by **meminto** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:45 pm

That wasnt entirely directed at you, I just replied....

If you have technical data or documentation from andra/cams then please share it with me and the rest of us...

Post by **Vetal** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:51 pm

Great build. Hope you will achieve your goals (and raise the plank for CA18DET highest power)

You didn't o-ring the block, did you?

Post by **Vetal** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:54 pm

saf, could you please give a bit more details about oil-pump options on CA18, and breathing/venting system? I'm planning to achieve some 500-550hp with bigger turbo and E85, and don't completely understand those 2 issues you mentioned

Post by **niscort** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:44 pm

Vetal wrote:saf, could you please give a bit more details about oil-pump options on CA18

the irony is the are no "options".. other than an externally driven pump with a dry sump, tank etc, equaling thousands of dollars of gear required to build such a system...

maybe he is confusing himself with the variety of options available for the rb series of engines

Post by **saf** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:59 pm

niscort wrote:the irony is the are no "options"

Incorrect.

niscort wrote:.. other than an externally driven pump with a dry sump, tank etc, equaling thousands of dollars of gear required to build such a system...

There you go , you just listed the option. And no, it doesnt equal to thousands of dollars at all, unless your a n00b, just love the bling and want to impress your mates, or do it because it needs to be done (i fall into the third eg).

If you look about on ebay, there are used Barnes, Peterson (these two are the Veyron's of dry sump pumps) and then you have superb pumps like Moroso, Stefs ect, what have a lot f options etc etc. You then have tanks, also you can get for much cheaper, even OBX is now making China tanks (but they are too small in size for my liking) so building a system is far from "thousands of dollars", unless you want it to be.

The beauty of say the moroso (if your on a budget), is also a large number of pulleys, and choice of drive system. And fact is that even if it were a couple grand, thats the cost of a good turbo. Im confused when it comes to this ?. We spend money on overseas AN made fittings, big turbos, custom builds, but we mumble quietly when it gets to ... "oem pump".

The other beauty of this setup is that the CA is known for head drainage issues, and its also common for high rpm. With a 3 or 4 stage dry pump, it will scavenge and make a considerable amount of crankcase vac, something that actually seals rings, makes hp , free's up hp, and gets the oil back down by stopping upwards drafts of air.

In any high perf motor, you want crankcase vac, but you dont want the OEM PCV system. So your getting a reliable and serviceable oil system that wont let you down, getting as a free side effect crankcase vac that you otherwise would have paid big bux for on its own (vac pump), the ability to sit the motor lower (always good), ... with only a drawback. AC system goes. I guess if you really wanted tho there are ways of keeping it and relocating the pump, but where the AC comp sits, thats optimal.

niscort wrote:maybe he is confusing himself with the variety of options available for the rb series of engines

Not confusing myself at all.

saf wrote:There are much much better alternatives. Dry sump.

Option 1 : Peterson (lots of pulleys, 2 drive systems)Option 2 : BarnesOption 3 : WeissOption 4 : Moroso ....

You get the pic. In the end, its entirely your choice. Irony is i had this convo with my local Vi-Pec (ex Autronic) dealer who is probably the man when it comes to CA in Aus, and he agree'd that its a step backwards, building motors, big turbos, and OEM pumps when he has also seen them fail.

The choice ... is yours.

Post by **niscort** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:52 pm

lol... ill try in English

dry sumping is one option, therefore there are no "plurals" of the word option. It is the only option.. sure there are many dry sump pump manufacturers, but you even said it yourself

saf wrote: There you go , you just listed the option.... blah etc

As your mr race fabricator offering all this free advise, that I would be paying for otherwise, whats your quote on drive in drive out dry sump and ancillaries installation, no bling... put it into the 3rd category just like yourself and quote as either a 3 or 4 stage..

far from thousands of dollars??

You've experienced this ca head drainage issue?? or just on the wagon.

Also I don't understand the relevance of mentioning the PCV system?? because its OEM? it doesnt work? there is no vaccum?

and who is this mysterious CA man of Aus, that you're name dropping? please don't say its Glenn

Post by **bentvalves** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:54 pm

Toda makes a high volume oil pump for the ca18det.

Post by **saf** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:24 pm

niscort wrote:As your mr race fabricator offering all this free advise, that I would be paying for otherwise,

.......

I walked back in again. My fault.

Sorry if i shat on your parade by voicing info.

Post by **niscort** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:07 pm

ks13 wrote:Toda makes a high volume oil pump for the ca18det.

toga, with a g.... and going by the reviews available even worse than OEM

and saf, would it be better if I implied that your a "n00b" HTFU.

Post by **meminto** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:34 am

Hi Vetal, No it didn't require o'ringing with the metal head gasket...

Also saf, I am waiting for you to tell me which version of the oil pump tends to have crank gear drive failure most often, in your experience? And what is the nature of the failure?

What is your definition of high RPM?

In the nine years that I have owned, built twice, (its also not the only motor I have built) and maintained my motor, I have never experienced the oil drainage issue that seems to keep being bantered around the forums, can you please explain what the cause of this issue is?

I researched dry sump systems during this build, I talked to people about the concept, as this is not a dedicated track car, I usually only drive it once a month or so, I felt the extra cost, complexity and extra points of failure were more of a significant risk..

I am also curious about who the man for CA in australia is...

Cheers...

Post by **Vetal** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:49 am

Guys let's calm down a bit, this thread was a great source of info and then you start to bash one another for now reason... Let's keep it more technical I also didn't hear about oil drainage problems before, what are they? Also, I know that many people like Castrol 10W-60 because "it is race oil", I think use of such oil could cause such problems as it is much thicker?

Do you think dry sump system is necessary for 550hp street/drag CA18?And I'm not dumping thousands (in fact, all my 12.8@112mph build costed about 4K, that's including 3 clutches), so even a thousand is huge amount for the external oiling system.

meminto, when do you plan to put yours on the rollers/track?

Post by **boost_boy** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:02 am

I've been watching this thread for along time to see the feedback relating to this project and I just smile at some of the replies as of late; to the point where I'm going to offer my points of expertise. URGENT:To the poster that wants to see a dry sump or is suggesting one, put one on yours and let's see how it functions. If the guy says his car will not be a dedicated track car, then this discussion about dry sumps should be dead because it's killing his build thread's interest.

As for the toga pumps on a CA18, a waste of $$$. A well or good remanufactured one or a new OEM unit should suffice for a 700whp CA. If you don't build and tune CA motors daily, then it's going to be extremely difficult to pass on your hypothesis without it being dissected. And if one's responses are of the factual nature, please provide the necessary data that will support your claim or step away from the vehicle "per se".

Though OEM pumps can fail, they don't fail often and I personally stand behind them in normal rebuilds and High performance rebuilds as well. I've had a brand new one fail on me, but I quickly recognized it and had it replaced no charge. I've built over 30 CA18 motors and haven't had one complaint yet, besides possibly putting a headgasket on backwards, but even this had no evidence, so I can't say I did. But because of the claim, I gave the individual money for a new headgasket and that was that. No complaints about low oil pressure or a poor build. The bottom line is, this is meminto's project and though your advice is warranted, no need to get into a pissing match because he won't make changes to suit your hypothesis. If he wants to run the oem oil pump on his bling $$$ CA18, that's his choice. If he wants to run A/C, again, that's his choice and I don't think it's fair to be trying to take shots at him because one feels that meminto's build should be done like the hot-shot racers.

I too have a very expensive motor and I run a stock/remanufactured pump. When I build, I monitor cold and hot oil pump performance as well as idle and up to and around 9300rpm and the flow is better than sufficient with very little aeration, so I don't know where some of this B.S. is coming from about the CA oem pump being crap for high performance. But as a proven member and enthusiast, I say let's move past this and let the man orchestrate his thread. It's his car, his money, his show, so all others, let it go and build your own $hit .................

De

Project "Baller"

Re: (hotgemini)

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